Taylor throating reamer from Brownells?

[yondering]

Have any of you guys used the Taylor throating reamer sold by Brownells (made by Clymer)?
I was considering having this done to my Bisley Blackhawk 45 Colt, but found that I can buy the reamer from Brownell's cheaper, and since I'm a do-it-myself guy, that appeals to me even more.

Here's my situation, I'm open to input from you revolver guru's who are more experienced than I: The gun has a .452" bore, and I've opened the throats to .453". It did (does) have a slight frame constriction in the barrel, so I've firelapped a total of 18 rounds through it. It feels like there is still a slight constriction in the barrel, but I stopped firelapping because it was obvious that one side of the barrel/forcing cone area was being cut faster than the other. (cutting fast on the RH side). Evidently either the barrel and/or forcing cone is not aligned properly with the cylinder. After doing some reading on Taylor throating, this looks like it might be an effective way to remedy this. My current financial situation won't allow for a custom line bored cylinder to fix the misalignment. Any input?

[Thumbcocker]

I can't answer any questions on the how ot of reaming as I had by Bisley .45 convertible cylinders opened up by cylindersmith. But I had a major barrel constricton. A polite but firm call to Ruger resulted in the gun being sent back at their expense. I don't have it back yet but I hope for better results.

FWIW it seems like a lot of folks who bought the Accusport .45 Bisleys have experienced this problem. Ruger should stand behind this product and make it right.

My gunsmith said that he could get replacement barrels from Ruger and install it reasonably. Maybe that is an option of your constriction wont go away.

[targetshootr]

I had a constricted barrel after I used too much torque installing it so I tried a forcing cone reamer to open it up but it didn't help so I put a different barrel on it and it shoots fine now.

[yondering]

Gents, a Taylor throat is designed specifically to address the throat constriction, and, from what I understand, will compensate for a small amount of misalignment. It's not the same thing as a normal forcing cone reamer.

Anyhow, on closer examination of my gun tonight, it looks like I have a more serious misalignment issue than I originally thought, maybe as much as .010". Going to start a new thread on correcting this so as not to confuse the issue with the Taylor throating.

[Bass Ackward]

Yes. Correct the problem first. But I would recommend against Tayloring for cast use.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
This is a surprise to me.
I had understood that Taylor throating usually was a good for shooting cast. IMBW but IIRC I read in several places that it very often cut group size.
Could you please elaborate .

[yondering]

Yes, I wondered about this as well, because every other place I've read about Taylor throating recommends it for cast bullet accuracy.

I read one report (don't remember where, sorry) describing how the rifling was stripping the bullets slightly (don't know the bullet, alloy, or load); but I've found that my firelapped barrels do this to some degree as well.

[Bret4207]

I Taylored one gun and wish I hadn't. What you're doing is creating a lot of freebore. In some instances, severely eroded forcing cones, messed up rifling in that area, I can see doing it if you have no alternative. I tried it because I read Jim Taylors article and he said it worked great. Maybe it does. All I know is I'll never know if my gun and load combo shoot bad because it's the load or if it's the Taylorizing job.

[Bass Ackward]

By definition, a Taylor throat is supposed to allow the bullet to exit the cylinder free and clear of stresses and then perform the bore alignment in the funnel created in the barrel. In order to do this, that means that the opening needs to be large enough in diameter NOT to interfere with the bullet's exit. It was made with bore diameter bullets (jacketed) in mind. Translation: here is another opportunity to lose seal that you worked to establish.

In effect, this is what in the old days was considered a worn or shot out forcing cone. A way to put 20,000 rounds of wear into a new gun so that it won't shoot loose and sound like a baby rattle when you shake it. We have reports that as a forcing cone wears, (lengthens) that you lose the ability to shoot short / light bullets because you can't maintain seal. This is not necessarily so, but it will show up for normal to low pressure cast loads that obturation doesn't occur at the lower pressure levels now present in the cone. That in itself is no big deal, unless your only lead supply is limited to WW cause you will lose load and powder flexibility chasing seal. Which is the same exact problem with a .... constriction which requires reobturation. :grin:

Bottom line is that I have access to three Taylor's and all three were used well before and after throating. I had no real accuracy improvement from peak performing loads. BUT ..... it did improve the accuracy more loads in general. (Just not enough that I would use those loads anyway.) One is now a jacketed only gun. So if you don't like changing mixes, or are limited to a WW supply, this can mean that you are now stuck to higher pressure loads.

IF your barrel is not in perfectly straight in the frame, then a Taylor is going to be cut true with the bore, not with bullet travel. That's why if I was Tayloring I would want frame alignment and thread size checked and trued, etc. If you don't correct the real problem it will have to wear (break in) anyway. If you have any alignment issues or a constriction and you fire lap, you WILL shoot in a "perfect" Taylor for "THAT" gun that doesn't create tool marks and removes metal EXACTLY where it needs removed. We know from experiences here, sometimes fire lapping or tayloring works, and sometimes results can be disappointing.

Proper diagnosis of the problem is the key. That's why I hold my opinion.

[BOOM BOOM]

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!
I would personally believe the comments of this board's members.
I will try to find where I read the glowing comments on Taylor throating & give the citing for those of you who are interested.

If any other board members have actual experiance with T.Throating ,I for 1 would VERY MUCH like to hear it.

[yondering]

Just an update regarding the original post; the cylinder misalignment was worse than I thought, and I learned how to correct it from some of this forum's members. I peened the bolt stop notch on one side and filed the other side to move the stop about .015", which got everything lined up as good as it's going to be. I ran a few more firelapping rounds through the bore, and got rid of the barrel/frame constriction, as best I can tell.

I still get a little lead fouling just forward of the forcing cone, although it wipes out much easier now. This happens with both air cooled and water quenched wheel weights, in lyman's 452423 boolit with BAC lube, over 10gr Unique. I also get some lead wash down the barrel. I've tried different bullets and powder charges; 10 gr Unique is the most accurate for practice. Commercial cast (20-22 HBN) doesn't foul nearly as much, even with it's hard lube. Any more suggestions on getting rid of the lead fouling?

Edited to add: Boolits are shot sized to .452, or as cast (.453"+). As cast won't fit through the .453" cylinder throats. Bore is just over .452".

Thanks guys.

[Bass Ackward]

Any more suggestions on getting rid of the lead fouling? Thanks guys.


Yes. Just shoot it. Alternate between jacketed and cast, keepint the gun clean of both. Use GC's to maintain a round count if you can.

I watched a lot of bullseye and silhouette competitors back in the 60s and early 70s when I lived close to a nice range. Guys would come in from the tri-state area here. Many from Ohio. They hated getting a new gun. And they shot enough that a new one was required every couple a years.

They would come to the range and set up off to the side. The ammo was carried in laundry baskets. They would just lay a sheet on the ground underneath them to catch the drops and place a bucket of water just to their right. One laundry basket for the empties went to the left. They usually brought family members or dates and allowed them to do most of the shooting. Ammo was usually the cheap Speer have jackets loaded up. Slabbies got three sheets.

They would have them load and shoot as fast as they could. After a couple a hundred rounds they would dip the gun in the bucket of water. In the summer they would just sizzle like a steak. After that, they would dry it out with a patch and the competitor then shoot it for group or at objects. They repeated this process for as long as it took and they kept the round count. Might be 2000 rounds before you would hear one say, "OK, she's coming round now."

The next time you saw them, they would go to a GC ball for another couple of thousand shots before they ever tried a PB bullet. Then they would try PB and see what the results were. If it leaded at all, they went back to the GCs. Around 7000 rounds the decision was made to keep or sell the gun. IF they were going to keep it, off it went to a smith to be surveyed for mechanical corrections (things like forcing cone and crown recut etc) and tightened up for any final break-in. And this was the common practice.

At the time, they told me things stood a chance of improving up to 10,000 rounds and at that point, what you had was all you were ever going to get. And that point, some guns just would never shoot PB without leading so don't waste time with them.

Figure out what 10,000 rounds would cost you today. Just in GCs. Bet things have changed now. :grin: But I learned to just shoot it. Shooting is fire lapping.

So from this, you can see that the vast ..... vast majority of guns today are waiting to reach their potential.

[yondering]

Figure out what 10,000 rounds would cost you today.

At roughly $150 per 1,000 for .45 cal jacketed bullets, that's $1,500 in bullets alone! Plus powder, brass, and primers (pretty sure my 100 count of brass won't last that long :mrgreen:)

Thanks for the advice Bass. I don't shoot jacketed much in this gun or my other 45's, but I might have to pick up a few.

I guess this could possibly be a case for the tubb's Final Finish bore polishing bullets. I've used them successfully in my 22 Hornet, and pretty much eliminated any fouling whatsoever, but hadn't considered them in handguns. Basically gives the polishing effect of jacketed bullets, but in a lot fewer rounds. Midway has the kit for less than $30.

Hmm, maybe paper patching would be worth a try? I've heard that polishes a bore pretty quick.

[leftiye]

You can get the Wheeler abrasives (3 grits) in the (gun)smithing section on eBay, and roll your boolits (or bullets) in it and load your own abrasive rounds. The idea of using J.B. bore lappiing compound for this is qiute intrigueing too as it is a fairly mild abrasive.

[yondering]

You can get the Wheeler abrasives (3 grits) in the (gun)smithing section on eBay, and roll your boolits (or bullets) in it and load your own abrasive rounds. The idea of using J.B. bore lappiing compound for this is qiute intrigueing too as it is a fairly mild abrasive.

I've got those, but that's a whole different thing than polishing. Those are lapping (cutting) compounds not polishing compounds. The Tubb's system polishes the bore. There's a polishing "dust" imbedded in the bullets, it doesn't feel grainy at all, it's like talcum powder.

I've already lapped the bore, as stated above. Now it probably just needs some polishing, although I've polished it with Flitz a bit already.

[Bass Ackward]

Just remember that Tubb's uses aluminum for the abrasive. The grits are very fine, yet it can and will embed in the bore.

Remember that system was created for jacketed. After you fire lap, best results will not occur until the abrasive is removed and the pores in the metal are closed. From my experience, that too is best performed with jacketed. Certainly a GC design.

Another great idea is to use LLA. You can heat LLA and mix in some very fine abrasive like carbide flour. And then that mixture can be painted only on bullet noses or only in the forcing cone with a Q-Tip so that you don't enlarge your throats. Just more ideas if that is the direction you are headed.

Don't forget to mark the bottle against mistaken use.