An interesting 16ga double for sale with lots of pictures

[corbinace]

This is at my LGS, but he has it on GB. It is just really cool looking I think. I think I have about worn the pictures out looking at it. Unfortunately, I am trying not to buy it. I did bid on it but I got passed up, and I can't figure out a way to justify owning it to myself.

Check it out. http://www.gunbroker.com/item/628712475

Does a double have removable breach plugs? I looks like different metal.

[sharps4590]

From what I understand they aren't removable unless the barrels are un-soldered and yes, they are of different material from the Damascus barrels. Pretty nice looking old double ML and in the "proper" bore size. Thank you for posting it.

[StolzerandSons]

It's a little hard to see in the pictures on gunbroker BUT you can see the seam between the two breechplugs. Made properly like this one you remove the round breechplug first then you remove the breechplug that is shaped to match the ribs. You shouldn't ever have to un-solder the barrels on a properly made double rifle or shotgun.
191455

You can go to my youtube channel(link in my signature) and see video of how a muzzleloading double rifle is made from start to finish including how the breechs are made and fit together.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

That is a beautiful gun, and while it may well have been entirely made in Belgium, it is very similar in style to one I have, which was made with Belgian provisionally proofed tubes by Kehlner neveu (i.e. nephew of the better-known Kehlner) in Prague. The horn grip is usually a German or Austrian feature. By some freak of chance the auction I bought it on has remained preserved for nearly fifteen years:

http://www.gunauction.com/buy/3231386

It turned out to be 14ga (which I much preferred) rather than 10ga, and yours is actually about 18. As well as rather stout barrel walls and a set trigger, the round patchbox and a knob to screw onto the end of the ramrod were a giveaway that it was intended as a ball gun, and probably for something a shade smaller than 14ga. So I lined it with rifled liners from Track of the Wolf. The gold R monogram above the grip has a crown with seven pearls, making it a baron's. But barons were pretty small-time aristocracy as far as the German and Austro-Hungarian Empires were concerned. Any son of a baron was a baron, while in Britain and France it was only inherited by the eldest on the father's death. The engraved European roe deer are extremely accurate, African antelope less so, and a leopard extremely fancifully. They didn't get to see them in photographs in those days.

Yours may have been intended exclusively a shotgun. But it is worth trying to push the right-barrel trigger forwards to see if a set trigger engages. There would probably only be one, as you don't want a full-auto double gun. At least one barrel should have a cylindrical breechplug which you unscrew by means of the tenon for the stock tang. The other barrel may be similar, or integral with the complete breech fitting like that of many single guns. The proofmark tells me only that it is pre-1893, when the oval ELG acquired a crown. That was virtually certain anyway for a gun of this quality, although they made cheap trade guns, often even flintlocks, until much later.

[swathdiver]

...and I can't figure out a way to justify owning it to myself.

Ahh the old buy on emotion, justify with logic internal debate! How many Belgian doubles in 16 gauge do you have? How about your neighbor? It's a nice size between 12 and 20 and if it's a shooter, why not? If you don't like it, you can always sell it.

[OverMax]

Good example of old world gunsmithing. Yep a sweet sixteen for-sure.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

That is a beautiful gun, and while it may well have been entirely made in Belgium, it is very similar in style to one I have, which was made with Belgian provisionally proofed tubes by Kehlner neveu (i.e. nephew of the better-known Kehlner) of Prague, then in Austro-Hungary. The horn grip is usually a German or Austrian feature. By some freak of chance the auction I bought it on has remained preserved for nearly fifteen years:

http://www.gunauction.com/buy/3231386

It turned out to be 14ga (which I much preferred) rather than 10ga, and yours is actually about 18 - a very useful size, when you don't have to find cartridges. As well as rather stout barrel walls and a set trigger, the round patchbox and a knob to screw onto the end of the ramrod were a giveaway that mine was intended as a ball gun, and probably for something a shade smaller than 14ga. So I lined it with rifled liners from Track of the Wolf. The gold R monogram above the grip has a crown with seven pearls, making it a baron's. But barons were pretty small-time aristocracy as far as the German and Austro-Hungarian Empires were concerned. Any son of a baron was a baron even during his father's lifetime, while in Britain and France it was only inherited by the eldest. The engraved European roe deer are extremely accurate, African antelope less so, and a leopard extremely fancifully. They didn't get to see them in photographs in those days.

Yours may have been intended exclusively a shotgun. But it is worth trying to push the right-barrel trigger forwards to see if a set trigger engages. There would probably only be one, as you don't want a full-auto double gun. At least one barrel should have a cylindrical breechplug which you unscrew by means of the tenon for the stock tang. The other barrel may be similar, or integral with the complete breech fitting like that of many single guns. The proofmark tells me only that it is pre-1893, when the oval ELG acquired a crown. That was virtually certain anyway for a gun of this quality, although they made cheap trade muzzle-loaders, often even flintlocks, until much later.

[waksupi]

Sad to see the cracked wrist on it, all too common with older doubles. We were looking at an English .500 Express double rifle Gary James had at our shoot a couple weeks ago. Very delicate wrist, and surprising it has stood up over the years.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Beautiful. Love the look of the half round half octagon double barrels.


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[BPJONES]

Nice gun. Looks like it hasn't seen a terribly lot of shooting over the years.

[corbinace]

I am going to go today and try to fondle this piece. You had collectively convinced me to bid again, but I now see a familiar handle bidding and will not bid against a friend. That said, if there are any questions that I may be able to answer about this particular piece, shoot me a PM and I will try to get an answer for you.

[pietro]

.

Except for the friend thing, IDK why you're hesitating - IMO, that gun's easily worth $500, with the quality of workmansip/adornment like that one has.

Maybe the GS owner (not some clerk) will accept a cash-on-the-table (not a spoken offer) of $400 or $450 for it.

.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

I am going to go today and try to fondle this piece. You had collectively convinced me to bid again, but I now see a familiar handle bidding and will not bid against a friend. That said, if there are any questions that I may be able to answer about this particular piece, shoot me a PM and I will try to get an answer for you.

If you are referring to seeing my handle over at gunbroker feel free to bid against me. No hard feelings, it is after all an auction. It's a beautiful shotgun and the seller deserves the most out of the auction.


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[BPJONES]

I wonder if that is actually a crack in the wrist or just a couple of deeper marks/gouges? It doesn't appear to go through to the other side.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yes, it is a pity about the crack, but it looks old and hasn't resulted in failure, so I don't think it is much weakening. If you can get unwaxed dental floss into it, you could probably work out some dirt with alcohol, and clamp it tight with a rubber tubing bandage after you glue it. I would say superglue if you can get the surfaces really close, since it will work down into the crack by capillary action, or epoxy coloured with brown accraglas dye from Brownells if you can't.

[sharps4590]

I have to stand corrected about the breech plugs. I truly didn't know what Stolzer posted. Thank you for adding to my limited knowledge. An old dog can learn new tricks...just takes longer!!!!

I too looked at that....whatever it is at the wrist. It could be a crack but boy...the more I looked at it the more I thought it a deep scratch. 'Course I was wrong about the breech plugs so that shows how observant I sometimes am....:(

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It could indeed be a deep scratch, or a crack which has been glued at the time when it appeared, which is the best time to do it. It might furnish an argument in the bargaining process.

[John Allen]

She is pretty but with a cracked wrist I do not know if I would want to shoot it without some support.

[KCSO]

Addendum on the breech plugs, You will need a well fitted wrench and it will take a week or more of soaking in Ed's Red to get them loose. If the bores look OK I would proof fire it and then quit there. The nipples when removed will give you a good idea of rust penetration.

[corbinace]

I can shed a bit of light on the crack question now. It is indeed a crack. That said it is very old and does not appear to be in any risk of becoming worse. It looks much worse in the pictures than in your hand. The short line that goes across appears to be the back end of a chip that came out at one time. It is very well re-secured and does not catch on your hand, laying down smoothly. The lock plates are nicely inletted and showing no pressure points. Not sure what made this break here but it was long ago. I was really amazed at how tight this piece was, I was expecting to feel some amount of looseness in the forearm or maybe the hammers.

As to the bores, they are approximately .637-.639" (I was not holding the calipers), so BIS is pretty spot on with 18ga.

The triggers to the best of my limited knowledge are not of the set type, but rather just a normal sear for this lock.

The arm is surprisingly light.

It was fun to handle it and it really felt nice on my shoulder. Not an overly long LOP, though I did not measure it.

[BPJONES]

Barring any serious pitting in the bores, there is no reason the ole beauty couldn't be singing "the hills are alive with the sound of music"!

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Barring any serious pitting in the bores, there is no reason the ole beauty couldn't be singing "the hills are alive with the sound of music"!

Most likely there isn't. You will find people online issuing dire warnings against shooting any old damascus gun, but I feel these are misplaced. Strictly speaking damascus is a misnomer for many twist barrels, which went all the way down to qualities for export to benighted savages who knew no better. But this one is good.

It will be weaker than plain steel, but the forward parts of plain steel barrels are much thicker than they need to be, from the point of view of pressure. That is to prevent accidental denting from the outside, to be damaged less from a bore obstruction, and to permit boring or lapping out pitting. Since a shotgun needs weight to keep the recoil down, they might as well be quite thick as not. WW Greener, in the days of 2½in. cartridges but not just of black powder, found that a shotgun wouldn't burst barrels thin enough near the muzzle to cut with scissors.

It is very rare for a burst in the forward part of a shotgun barrel to be caused by anything but a bore obstruction or the barrel being previously impaired. In any material this could be a dent from the outside left unraised, so that bore wear creates a thin spot. Or an unwise amount of reboring. Or removing too much metal from the outside in refinishing after rusting, possibly just adjacent to the rib. A peculiar weakness of damascus is that it can be more easily cracked than ordinary steel by the raising of a dent deeper than should be raised.

I doubt very much if any of these apply to "your" gun. That stepless transition of octagon to round would make it very unlikely that excess metal removal from the outside has ever taken place, and it certainly hasn't on the rib, where "canons damas" is engraved.

[BPJONES]

I agree with there is a lot of "misconception" surrounding damascus barrels. If one chooses not to shoot them that is fine and well, but if the barrels are in good condition with reasonable wall thickness closer to the breech, there is no reason they cannot be shot with proper loads. I think more shooters are finding that out as I think in the last few years more of these guns have seen use again, both in muzzleloaders and breech loaders.

[sharps4590]

Along with what you guys are saying one sees more and more Damascus barrels that are passing proof today.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Well it has sold, and for $381, which was a steal, and I hope it went to one or other of the people here who were interested. They said no international shipments... That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

I hadn't noticed the bore photograph earlier. It doesn't look pitted. It can be a mistake to look for perfect mirror bores in a muzzle loader. Even the best makers often didn't bore them that perfectly until breech-loaders came along and let the customer get critical. On that scale it makes no functional difference.

That muzzle looks as if it might have been shortened, probably a long time ago, but there is no harm in that. It could have been to remove damage, or some shotguns were made with what look like absurdly barrels to us now. I think it may have been for use on horseback, since getting the muzzle blast away from the horse's head reduces the chances that he will drop the pilot.

[BPJONES]

Yes, someone got a gun for a good price that still looks to have a lot of shooting left. I don't think the barrels have been shortened. If you look at the muzzles, the barrels are touching together. For them to be touching they would have had to have been shortened very little (which is possible) or re-regulated (doubtful). Of course this is speculation on my part but I have seen a few barrels that were shortened and on those particular examples none of the barrels touched any longer. Of course some double barrels were made where there was a bit of a gap between the barrels but that's not the case with this gun.

[Iron Whittler]

I can not tell a lie. In a moment of weakness, I Iron Whittler bought it. Looked to be a fine specimen of "old school" gun making craftsmanship. Seller is closed for weekend, so it will be Monday before it can be shipped. Anxious to see it in hand. Iron Whittler [smilie=w:

[Beagle333]

Congrats!! That's a nice looking shotgun. I believe it worth that price. Enjoy and update when you get it and learn more about it, please?

[Iron Whittler]

Beagle333, Will do. I will get some detailed measures on the bores. I have never loaded a muzzle loading shot gun before, so input on powder, wads, and shot charges will be a big help. I DO NOT wish to harm a piece of firearm history by improperly loading it. Dennis:drinks:

[stubshaft]

THANK GOODNESS YOU BOUGHT IT. I just saw the post (been working) and have a MANIA for 16ga. guns. It is a real pretty piece.


I can not tell a lie. In a moment of weakness, I Iron Whittler bought it. Looked to be a fine specimen of "old school" gun making craftsmanship. Seller is closed for weekend, so it will be Monday before it can be shipped. Anxious to see it in hand. Iron Whittler [smilie=w:

[Ballistics in Scotland]

For just about the ultimate on muzzle-loading firearms technology, here in your choice of format is William Greener, father of the largely breech-loading WW Greener.

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/43799