Regarding . > . 'Hollow Points' . < . details

[OS OK]

Just another Q & A Poll to see what the other fellas are thinking and doing...

Some of the questions might provoke a thoughtful response below...even post a picture of your favorite cast HP or Commercial Brand.

The more comments, the more can be gleaned from this thread.

[barrabruce]

I'm having teathing problems with my hp mould but I'm getting better.
Cast 130 today but should have got around 200 or so at least.
Dropping from pins is not it issue after I rubbed a bit of soft pencil graphite over them.

Mainly getting the mold up to a good casting temp has been my problem and sticking bullets in blocks which want to tear or deform the bullet on the opposite side of the pins locating pins.

First brass mould and I may even spin a bullet with polish in it to break up the sharp edges some what.

I can whinge about the trough in the sprue plate which sometimes overflows in to the other cavity but I won't.

It does explode water filled plastic bottles in a dramatic way with a moderate load.

Accuracy is quite good.

Just don't rain bullets out of it like my over moulds.....but it is an entirely different beast.

Maybe I'm not bashing it hard enough.

I have developed early stages of Parkinsons in my mould holding hand from trying to jiggle the bloody bullets out.

No doubt I'll get the hang of it sooner or later.

Ha

[OS OK]

One tip there barrabruce....I received here on the forum . . . When ready to open the mold, tap the hinge bolt of the handles to get the mold to open. When it barely cracks open, leave it like that (very close together) don't manually open the mold just yet...give it a few more whacks.
It seems that the other side of the mold helps to jiggle the cast out of the 'sticking' side. Watch the bases, they will barely show a seperation from both mold halves...open and dump.
As mold and Pb temps rise there will be a sweet spot where all is good in the kingdom...try to note temps and remember your cadence at that magical moment...you will get there.

[44man]

I don't use them even if more accurate since I deer hunt. Splash and mop burger is not fun. I do, however cast a softer nose when needed but never pure lead either. Even that can be nasty.191284 I have lost too much meat to fool with grenades.

[rintinglen]

191285I use MP Cramer style HP and NOE RG Type molds for about 50 % of my casting these days. In actual side by side testing of an H&G 68 4 cavity clone, HP and solid, I find I get about 10 hollowpoints for every 12 solid nose cast in the same time frame. I have cast Lyman single cavity HP's in the past, but will not do that again. I like large hollowpoints. There is a 22 Short inserted in the hollow of the NOE 45-200 grain 45 ACP boolit on the right. The others are a 314-640 100 grain MP in a 32 S&W long and a in a 327 Federal Magnum.

[44deerslayer]

I love my hp mold it's a custom mold iv shot lots of water jugs and game shoots well out of my trapper 44 mag too

[Forrest r]

Some of us cast our own hp's, swage our own lead hp's, drill our own hp's into cast/swaged/jacketed hp's and swage our own jacketed hp's.

You asked about using jacketed hp's but not about making them in your survey.

I do all four:
Cast hp's
Swage lead hp's
Swage jacketed hp's
Drill hp's in lead/jacketed bullets

I also swage different hp's in 22 rimfires (shorts/lr's & mags) using 2 different die sets/mfg's.

[runfiverun]

this is one of the things me and 44 man fully agree on.

[Elkins45]

I've only shot two deer with a cast HP. One was a 300 grain pure lead 45 with a sabot in a smokeless ML. Lung shot, maybe ran 30 feet. Found a lead nose petal in the back strap when cooking it. Ended that little experiment--the deer didn't die any faster than the ones shot with regular 300 grain lead flat nose bullets.

The other was a big doe shot with a 375 Ruger. The mold is a NOE, maybe 250 grain from COWW at around 1900 fps. Also a lung shot, but higher than I thought I aimed. She ran 40 yards and left a trail of blood and lung tissue you could have followed in the dark. In this case I think the HP made maybe a little bit of a difference--the exit hole wasn't much bigger than the ones left by my 270 but the lung damage was just crazy. I think the nose tore apart and shredded them more effectively than just a hole puncher would.

Maybe this year I will see how a heavy 30 caliber subsonic hollowpoint does on deer. I have never been able to get me AR to shoot this bullet very well, but I've found a load my Ranch Rifle (bolt) likes that is very quiet.

I can tell you that this was overkill:
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm35/elkins_pix/final.jpg (http://s292.photobucket.com/user/elkins_pix/media/final.jpg.html)

[OS OK]

Is that a mod you made to the Lee?
Have you found a narrow band of ( FPS/Pb blend ) where it mushrooms & retains it's weight and it fragmenting?
Any comment on successful speed and Pb blend for that design?

[44man]

I have become very touchy about boolits and seen it all with pencil holes to the extreme. Velocity, boolit weight, alloy, HP size and a few other things enter. I am not comfortable telling you what you shoot needs this or that.
Maybe the hardest thing I work on is balance. I see posts that make me cringe when I have been there.
When you get a HP to work perfect under all conditions and any size animal with any caliber, at any range I might sit up straight.

[Elkins45]

Is that a mod you made to the Lee?
Have you found a narrow band of ( FPS/Pb blend ) where it mushrooms & retains it's weight and it fragmenting?
Any comment on successful speed and Pb blend for that design?

Yes. it's a 300 grain 45 caliber Lee. The HP pin is a field point from an arrow. I made a handle by inserting a ferrule into a dowel. After closing he mold I screwed it up tight before pouring.

I didn't do enough testing to really have a good answer to your question. My first test on game was pure lead at around 2000 fps and that's the one where I found parts of the nose in the backstrap. If I ever get around to trying it again, the very least alloy I will try is COWW. My velocity will always be around 2000fps because that's where my sights are regulated for a 300 grain bullet with this rifle.

I made a deep, straight pin for this mold as well, but I don't think it was necessary either. 300 grains of flat pointed pure lead at 2000 fps is all the killing a big whitetail needs.

[OS OK]

I have become very touchy about boolits and seen it all with pencil holes to the extreme. Velocity, boolit weight, alloy, HP size and a few other things enter. I am not comfortable telling you what you shoot needs this or that.
Maybe the hardest thing I work on is balance. I see posts that make me cringe when I have been there.
When you get a HP to work perfect under all conditions and any size animal with any caliber, at any range I might sit up straight. < I don't think there is one HP that will fill the bill here, I think you are talking of many different types and Pb blends...there is no magic HP 'one size/type do-all'.)

Hollow Points, I think present a mystery to many casters...especially after they've tried and failed...

Instead, this is about 'discovery'...what have other casters done, what were the results.
Just trying to build a data-base of what has been tried and make it technical enough to peruse some facts / draw some parallels...figure out relationships between Pb blends / FPS / HP characteristics / etc.

I have no intentions to start any controversy over their intended purposes. I would like to see some members who have given up on their HP molds start again having some inside information and find success...however they individually measure it.

*This is not the pit and I don't want a running argument of conjecture & supposition...just the facts...troubles people have had, even their success to overcome...no arguements!

I'd like to see this thread fill with facts of 'as built HP's' and their pictures of success and failure...in my opinion...that's how we learn together.

[44man]

Therein is the problem. Stuff works here but not there. It can't be defined and I can't say what is best except for me and what I shoot.
With cast we are all not exact.
We will make mistakes and learn but to destroy an animal for a fast kill still will goad me. But a loss is even worse. I did wrong now and then but never tried the same again.
I wish it was easy.

[Elkins45]

Yeah, almost everything works under some conditions, but very few work under all conditions. The question becomes what works under the conditions you are operating under. I'm really hopeful to figure out how to reliably kill deer with a subsonic 300 Blackout bullet.

[OS OK]

Sub sonic sounds like it needs to be heavy and plow through like a freight train.
Trying to use a HP subsonic will be challenged to blow through a deer...possibly some RNFP of a softer Pb blend might mushroom a small amount and help deliver greater shock to the inner organs but...you still need a hole on both sides for bleed out so you can track it.

[44man]

Yeah, almost everything works under some conditions, but very few work under all conditions. The question becomes what works under the conditions you are operating under. I'm really hopeful to figure out how to reliably kill deer with a subsonic 300 Blackout bullet.
It is hard and depends on hits. I really hate the perfect shot stuff because we all can't do it.. It comes down to where we hit an animal. To say I am always perfect means just that but I am not that. Nobody else is either. So many can't shoot a group of 6" will say they hit a spine every time. Head shots every time. Boy I wish I was that good. So get to reality. Each and every boolit might need a different hit on an animal to perform or go bad. Some claim always. I have not met the ghost in the trees yet.

[Traffer]

I am not interested in hollow points, I do not see the advantage of using them in any situation. I am however very interested in HOLLOW BASES. Now with powder coating and the ability to do away with grease grooves, the evidence I have seen for putting hollow bases on semi-auto pistol bullets is very impressive and intriguing. I am planning to make grooveless, hollow based bullets for my 9mm by swaging. Should have had all that done by now but I am stuck working on 22lr reloading.

[44man]

I am not interested in hollow points, I do not see the advantage of using them in any situation. I am however very interested in HOLLOW BASES. Now with powder coating and the ability to do away with grease grooves, the evidence I have seen for putting hollow bases on semi-auto pistol bullets is very impressive and intriguing. I am planning to make grooveless, hollow based bullets for my 9mm by swaging. Should have had all that done by now but I am stuck working on 22lr reloading.
Might be dissapointed too. Expand to fit is a hard thing too.

[Elkins45]

Sub sonic sounds like it needs to be heavy and plow through like a freight train.
Trying to use a HP subsonic will be challenged to blow through a deer...possibly some RNFP of a softer Pb blend might mushroom a small amount and help deliver greater shock to the inner organs but...you still need a hole on both sides for bleed out so you can track it.

I don't think the exit hole would be a problem for a 30 cal 230 grain bullet at 1000 fps. My worry would be that it just makes a pencil hole all the way through. I saw that happen on a big doe I shot with one of those solid copper wonder bullets. She was strolling across an open field on the next hillside and I was shooting from prone. I kept missing her and she just kept strolling...until she stumbled and fell over a few feet from the edge. Turns out I made three pencil holes through her lungs and she didn't even seem to be feeling them until she filled up with blood. She was leaking a bit on the back side but I couldn't see it.

My bullet I'm experimenting with in the Blackout is the NOE 247, but it actually weight about 230 with the hollow point. I tried casting some from pure lead but couldn't get them to group well at all. They shoot OK from 96-2-2 and the ones I have found in the berm mushroom and/or bend their noses. I may shoot some water jugs and see what happens.

[yondering]

Sub sonic sounds like it needs to be heavy and plow through like a freight train.
Trying to use a HP subsonic will be challenged to blow through a deer...possibly some RNFP of a softer Pb blend might mushroom a small amount and help deliver greater shock to the inner organs but...you still need a hole on both sides for bleed out so you can track it.

No, and no.

It's not difficult at all to have an expanding subsonic rifle bullet fully penetrate deer. I believe I have posted some of my thoughts and experiences with that in several of your hollow point threads. You can achieve a larger wound channel and still retain full penetration through the shoulders with a properly designed hollow point. You are right that it does require weight.

Subsonic RNFP bullets of even pure lead do not reliably expand, unless hitting bone. It's easy to achieve with a hollow point, much more difficult with a soft solid nose.

[OS OK]

That alloy seems soft enough, what BHN 11?
I would test it in watersoaked wetpack. Of all the stuff we try to test in I think the dirt berm is the least effective for judging how it would behave in flesh and bone.
I haven't done this yet but I want to try shreaded paper wetted and tamped with a 4x4 tightly in a plastic bucket. Seems like I could adjust the water content somewhat by how densly I pack the shreaded paper. I'm thinking it will show a cavity but at 2K FPS I don't think the depth of a single bucket would stop the round. Maybe cut the bottom out of a few buckets so they will stack concentric and stand taller and hold more paper.
I dunnoh yet...haven't had time yet to do this.
Shreaded paper could be left in the bucket, on its side to drain and dry and used again...dunnoh that either? I don't have access to gobs of phone books and don't want to deal with the mess they would cause.
Did you say you were PC'ing these casts?

[OS OK]

No, and no.

It's not difficult at all to have an expanding subsonic rifle bullet fully penetrate deer. I believe I have posted some of my thoughts and experiences with that in several of your hollow point threads. You can achieve a larger wound channel and still retain full penetration through the shoulders with a properly designed hollow point. You are right that it does require weight.

Subsonic RNFP bullets of even pure lead do not reliably expand, unless hitting bone. It's easy to achieve with a hollow point, much more difficult with a soft solid nose.

What do you suggest for this fella I'm talking to right now?

[Traffer]

Could you elaborate a little on that. I am not quite sure I understand what you mean.

Might be dissapointed too. Expand to fit is a hard thing too.

[yondering]

What do you suggest for this fella I'm talking to right now?



My bullet I'm experimenting with in the Blackout is the NOE 247, but it actually weight about 230 with the hollow point. I tried casting some from pure lead but couldn't get them to group well at all. They shoot OK from 96-2-2 and the ones I have found in the berm mushroom and/or bend their noses. I may shoot some water jugs and see what happens.

The hollow point NOE provides with that mold is too small for subsonic expansion, you are right to be concerned about penciling through. (I believe they've redesigned it in the latest run, but I'm guessing that's not what you have.) Your comment about reduced accuracy with soft alloys mirrors mine; I'm using the 300 in the AR15 platform, and accuracy is much better with a ww alloy around ~10 bhn or so than with soft lead. I made a larger set of pins for that bullet for a member on the 300 Blktalk forum (user name bangbangping if you want to ask him about it); I sized the pins for good expansion with coww equivalent and to drop easily from the mold.

In this application, for deer hunting, it's better to have too much expansion than not enough, but also make sure the remaining bullet shank is heavy enough to continue through the animal if the nose fragments off. My best subsonic/suppressed hunting bullet performance on deer has been when the nose fragments off in the chest cavity, causing significantly more organ damage, and the base passes on through the far shoulder. The main wound track is generally about golf ball size through the vital organs, with some smaller tracks as fragments move out laterally, and the shank pretty much makes a pencil hole through the far shoulder bone. As a rough rule of thumb, I want the remaining shank to be ~2/3 the original bullet weight. Performance wise, that gives you essentially a subsonic Nosler Partition.

I will also say that good subsonic hunting bullet performance is a lot easier to achieve in a 35 caliber than in a 30 caliber or smaller. That is what led me to build a big brother to the Blackout in .358 bore, also in the AR15 platform.

Larger hollow point in NOE 247 for better expansion:
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/molds/NOE%20147%20HP2.jpg

[OS OK]

Yondering, that's awesome looking. I don't run any AR's so I'm not familiar with the various calibers...what do you call that one?

If this fella can't move up to that barrel, mold and new dies, brass and all that encumbers...what do you suggest he do as he is outfitted?

One other question too...weren't you the one who got me to plug the HP's with silicone or such? Do you run these that way?

[44man]

I made a mistake with my 45-70 revolver many times. I was poking holes and losing deer with no blood trails to follow. With one I found blood at over 100 yards and it was over another 100 when I found her. I figure over 250 yards to dead or more. I changed to a 50-50 HP that Babore sent me. 420 gr oven hardened. I hit behind the shoulder and the angle of the deer had the boolit exit the off shoulder, there was nothing left to it. The whole shoulder pulled off with the skin. I did not expect that from a revolver so what would happen with a faster rifle?
The picture I showed was from a revolver too. That boolit did not stop and had full penetration.
My best killer is a hard boolit in the .475 and .44. I like water jug shooting and want the first 3 or 4 to blow up but the boolit must not be stopped, the .475 blew 4, split no 5 and went through 17 jugs. I speed the earths spin from boolits going through deer!
I fully believe in energy transfer at the right place but also full penetration. I lost confidence in just a larger meplat and a WLN or Keith is all needed. I found a very large meplat has a pressure wave that moves tissue out of the boolit path and away from energy. I found no advantage in making the meplat larger and some nose expansion is better. Too much is no good. Tests in the field go on and I have been close with my guns but it is a small window to get it right.
Is there a place for a HP? Sure, but I can't utilize it with what I shoot. You need to observe your results.
Some show massive HP's but don't know about results on game. Most is a feeling about expectations. I admit to holding my head at the bench to imagine what happens in the gun and game. It has lead me to accuracy with revolvers nobody has matched. But on game can only be realized by killing. Toughest road I ever traveled.

[OS OK]

I was hoping to get this thread going about the mechanics of the HP's. Hoping to entice folks to enter here what they have done, what they have assembled, the Pb blends, velocities, cal.'s, barrel lengths and all that sort of stuff...listed in pictures of the results, like above...but too, all the information of what 'is' and 'is not' working.
I've found that over the years if I pay attention to what doesn't work, then I don't need to go there and it also explains...or connects the dots about things I sit at the bench and scratch my head over.

We know that HP's work in a narrow band of all the above variables...let's try to discover the techniques of adjusting the variables to get something we can use.
Also try to develope a method of testing in artificial media, (and what media would that be that everyone could get ahold of and use...I don't mean expensive Gel's) a media that would as close as possible mimick the animals bone and flesh enough so that we can extrapolate from there and not get into another long discussion and argument over FBI standards and all that.

EDIT...A very interesting and broad testing program is being undertaken by . . . https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-MIt11Lihm02hMxIIY-b0w . . . 'Loads of Bacon' his Y-Tube site. Many combinations of Pb blends, PC coated and eventually all will be shot into GEL...love to see the GEL test conducted on HP's.

[NoAngel]

I prefer large meplats to hollow points. Even the best hollow points do not expand the same, every time. The largest meplat I can get, that will give me reliable function & accuracy is what I am looking for.

[Elkins45]

The hollow point NOE provides with that mold is too small for subsonic expansion, you are right to be concerned about penciling through. (I believe they've redesigned it in the latest run, but I'm guessing that's not what you have.) Your comment about reduced accuracy with soft alloys mirrors mine; I'm using the 300 in the AR15 platform, and accuracy is much better with a ww alloy around ~10 bhn or so than with soft lead. I made a larger set of pins for that bullet for a member on the 300 Blktalk forum (user name bangbangping if you want to ask him about it); I sized the pins for good expansion with coww equivalent and to drop easily from the mold.

In this application, for deer hunting, it's better to have too much expansion than not enough, but also make sure the remaining bullet shank is heavy enough to continue through the animal if the nose fragments off. My best subsonic/suppressed hunting bullet performance on deer has been when the nose fragments off in the chest cavity, causing significantly more organ damage, and the base passes on through the far shoulder. The main wound track is generally about golf ball size through the vital organs, with some smaller tracks as fragments move out laterally, and the shank pretty much makes a pencil hole through the far shoulder bone. As a rough rule of thumb, I want the remaining shank to be ~2/3 the original bullet weight. Performance wise, that gives you essentially a subsonic Nosler Partition.

I will also say that good subsonic hunting bullet performance is a lot easier to achieve in a 35 caliber than in a 30 caliber or smaller. That is what led me to build a big brother to the Blackout in .358 bore, also in the AR15 platform.

Larger hollow point in NOE 247 for better expansion:
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/molds/NOE%20147%20HP2.jpg

Yes, mine was one of, if not the very first one. I think I'm the person who talked him into offering an RG version of that mold. I like that big pin of yours. I have the cup point pins but I haven't tried them. I can't remember if that mold came with blank pins or not, but if it did I may have to try that.


I prefer large meplats to hollow points. Even the best hollow points do not expand the same, every time. The largest meplat I can get, that will give me reliable function & accuracy is what I am looking for.

"Large" is relative. A 30 caliber bullet will have a small meplat even if it's a cylinder.

[USSR]

Jeez, couldn't ya have a few more selections.:groner:

Don

[Josh Smith]

When I use jacketed for defense or hunting, I use hollowpoint.

When I use cast for hunting or for defense, I use flat point.

After a heckuva lot of testing, I just can't find an appreciable difference in performance between a truncated cone soft cast and hollowpoint jacketed in .45acp. They do different types of damage, but my personal research tells me that the results are generally the same.

Small diameter rifles, like the 7.62x54r, need hollowpoints to work acceptably on large game. Large diameter calibers like the .45 Colt and .45-70 are just fine with flat meplats.

These are my opinions based on testing.

Regards,

Josh

[yondering]

Yes, mine was one of, if not the very first one. I think I'm the person who talked him into offering an RG version of that mold. I like that big pin of yours. I have the cup point pins but I haven't tried them. I can't remember if that mold came with blank pins or not, but if it did I may have to try that.

"Large" is relative. A 30 caliber bullet will have a small meplat even if it's a cylinder.

That cup point is a little better than the skinny deep hollow point pin NOE sold with the mold; at least you get a little expansion although it doesn't open up very far.

Most commercial hollow points are not designed very well IMO, and it's clear from the comments here that most casters don't understand how to make hollow points work well either, or what they can do when they do work well. If you have the ability to tailor the hollow point for the application, you can make it perform exactly how you want. If some of you prefer not to use hollow points, that's fine, but no reason to clutter up the thread saying so, that's not what OS OK is looking for.

[yondering]

I was hoping to get this thread going about the mechanics of the HP's. Hoping to entice folks to enter here what they have done, what they have assembled, the Pb blends, velocities, cal.'s, barrel lengths and all that sort of stuff...listed in pictures of the results, like above...but too, all the information of what 'is' and 'is not' working.
I've found that over the years if I pay attention to what doesn't work, then I don't need to go there and it also explains...or connects the dots about things I sit at the bench and scratch my head over.

I can comment in more detail later if you want, but will offer a few points here about what works well in my experience, and what doesn't.

Hollow point shape:
- small hollow point openings operate in a narrow velocity range, large openings are more forgiving and work across a broader spectrum.
- A thick rim around the hollow point at the nose requires higher velocity to expand than a thin rim
- Depth of the hollow point controls total amount of expansion, and remaining shank. Adjust depth in most cases so that only the front 1/3 of the bullet expands (this can vary with application though).
- Progressive opening is important, and is controlled with the shape of the pin. More on this later.

Alloy:
- Pure or dead soft lead is not needed or desired for hollow points unless velocity is very low, below ~600-700 fps.
- Alloy ~10 BHN with a small amount of antimony and minimal tin works very well in a properly designed hollow point.
- If you have to use really soft lead in the nose to get expansion, your hollow point is poorly designed and could be improved.

Terminal performance:
- Maximum weight retention is not the ultimate goal, or even necessarily desirable. Very large opening hollow points with little or no fragmentation generally cause shallow penetration.
- Performance similar to a Nosler Partition is possible with cast hollow points, and in my experience causes the most trauma on medium sized game (deer). Obviously that's different than one needs for shooting cape buffalo.
- From reading these forums, there are apparently a lot of buffalo roaming the country. :)

[OS OK]

Thanks Yondering...your doing a yeoman's job of trying to save this thread for me.
Your post are 'exactly' what I've been asking for.
Having been brought up by a Cop in the 50-60's, HP's were a sketchy subject in his work place. Not much ever said about them other than with the .357 Magnum they go in small and come out in a fist sized hole.
As a kid I never had opportunity to hunt with them, for some reason all we ever had was a soft point .30/06 or .30-30.

Post like yours, 'to do's' and future post by others including 'not to do's' are exactly the 'empirical facts and figures' I'd like to collect here.

Like Dragnet's Joe Friday used to say..."Just the facts Mam" . . . Thank You...charlie

[Elkins45]

One general rule is that a tapering or progressive cavity shape seems more likely to both initiate and continue expansion than a straight, skinny hole. That crazy tapered pin I made for my ML bullet was absolutely explosive.

[OS OK]

That design, don't they call that 'cupped'?...that design would tend to limit how much can frag off though, guaranteeing 2/3'rds left to pass through game...right?

[BCB]

I use pure lead and I hollow-point them using my drill press...

The 311041 has performed quit well on deer at ranges from 40-70 yards from a Model '94...

The 452490 has performed quit well on deer also as well as woodchucks at 25-30 yards...

[OS OK]

I have a friend who does it on a lathe.
I've tried that with a drill press but without success. Two problems for me, (1) getting the drill bit perfectly centered (2) holding the cast without marring it or squishing it out of round.

How have you gotten around these problems?

[44man]

I understand you want to play with a HP. But with a drill press you need a fixture to hold the round with a drill size hole centered.
You can use a case trimmer to HP, Forster made one long ago. I see they still have it. You can make a cutter for any shape if you have a lathe. This is done with a loaded round, not just a boolit.
I still say you need to find where you need a HP. Under some conditions it will be an aid so you must determine that.

[BCB]

I have a friend who does it on a lathe.
I've tried that with a drill press but without success. Two problems for me, (1) getting the drill bit perfectly centered (2) holding the cast without marring it or squishing it out of round.

How have you gotten around these problems?

I use the universal hollow pointer by Forester to get the 1/8" hole centered. Then I actually hold the loaded round at the drill press and increase the hole size slightly. I move the press downward at an extremely slow speed--touch the boolit then back-off a little and touch it again...

I doubt the hole is perfectly centered using the drill press, but the hole is centered when using the Forster hollow pointer. The drill press just enlarges...

I don't shoot these boolits for super accuracy as my shots are generally much less than 100 yards...

The method is crude, I will admit, but it still seems to work O.K.

Good-Luck...

[OS OK]

Forster Universal Hollow Pointer 1/8"




Product #: 371968
Forster #: HP1008
UPC #: 757253004735



Read 9 Reviews (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/371968/forster-universal-hollow-pointer-1-8#ReviewHeader)









https://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/371/371968.jpg

Well...it's an option if you don't have a HP mold and want to experiment around...(read the reviews though).

[BCB]

I see a couple of reviews that aren't in favor of the Universal Hollow Pointer, but others seem to think it works O.K...

It does take a bit of practice with the Forster Trimmer, but I have hollow pointed the 311041 using it and that boolit does not have a wide meplat. It certainly looks centered, although I have never attempted to measure and verify that...

You cannot force the bit into the lead and you need to pull the bit from the boolit at times and clean the lead from the twists in the bit...

Slow, but effective I think. If you are doing volumes--it is not your tool of choice for sure...

Good-luck...BCB

[OS OK]

I think it's a very fine option for those who just want to monkey around with some HP's...maybe to convince themselves to actually start casting them...I'm glad you brought it up.
It's a good addition to this thread and those look like they were cast too.

[zubrato]

Wrt: problems dropping boolits from an hp mold, heat is your friend and imo its best to chuck the pins in a drill, 0000 steel wool followed by flitz on a cloth.
After doing this as well as polishing the alignment pins on some of my more finicky molds, bullets drop off the pin same as they drop out of a non-hp mold. I sometimes run my tapper over the e clip side of the pins gently and they fall right off.

A different problem I've noted is internal air voids with larger pins from faster cooling due to pin size. For plinking use, no big deal. But for accuracy purposes I have begun separating by weight recently.

Have not been able to cast much recently due to work and life in the way, but can't wait to cast some HBWC from he recent group buy for my 442-2 and 686.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I was hoping to get this thread going about the mechanics of the HP's. Hoping to entice folks to enter here what they have done, what they have assembled, the Pb blends, velocities, cal.'s, barrel lengths and all that sort of stuff...listed in pictures of the results, like above...but too, all the information of what 'is' and 'is not' working.
I've found that over the years if I pay attention to what doesn't work, then I don't need to go there and it also explains...or connects the dots about things I sit at the bench and scratch my head over.

We know that HP's work in a narrow band of all the above variables...let's try to discover the techniques of adjusting the variables to get something we can use.
Also try to develope a method of testing in artificial media, (and what media would that be that everyone could get ahold of and use...I don't mean expensive Gel's) a media that would as close as possible mimick the animals bone and flesh enough so that we can extrapolate from there and not get into another long discussion and argument over FBI standards and all that.

I hesitated to comment, due to my negative opinion of the cast HP, but I guess I feel compelled enough to explain myself and my vote of "I don't use HP's".

I haven't hunted for many years, so my shooting is primarily at the range. HP's are a bugger to cast, while I have cast many, some with NOE RG molds and some with MP molds ...I would get pretty good boolits sooner or later and it always includes sorting out culls afterward. I've decided it isn't worth the hassle, even though they look cool, and they do look interesting when they are recovered. I sold most of the HP molds I had (as well as my HP swage dies), but I still have one or two HP molds, and will probably keep these, in case I feel like being cool again.

While I have little or no experience with HP performance and terminal ballistics, I trust 44Man and R5R with their conclusions and explanations, As well as NoAngel in regards to Large Meplat. I conclude, for self-protection, Large Meplat with a hot load and a alloy not softer than BHN 15...but not overly hard, that is reliable and accurate in said gun, would be my choice.

You, yourself, said, "We know that HP's work in a narrow band of all the above variables". Unless a person's goal is to become an expert on HP, it doesn't seem prudent to use them for hunting or self-protection. I applaud any and all who choose the HP endeavor, it's just not for me.

[Forrest r]

I think it's a very fine option for those who just want to monkey around with some HP's...maybe to convince themselves to actually start casting them...I'm glad you brought it up.
It's a good addition to this thread and those look like they were cast too.

That "monkeying around" as you put it makes extremely lethal bullets. BCB showed examples of a 1/16" hp and a 1/8" hp made with the forster hp tool. That same tool can easily make a cupped hp using a 3/16" 60* center drill. The cupped hp's do very well in snub nosed firearms/velocities. A 44cal/1000fps hp made with a 3/16" 60* center drill in a forster hp tool.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/cupnose_zpsblh9myhy.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/cupnose_zpsblh9myhy.jpg.html)
More monkeying around, this time amping up 22lr's. There just aren't that many mfg's of 22lr ammo that produce ammo with large meplats. And the few you find that do make a flat nosed hunting bullet, it's a craps shoot if your firearm likes that ammo or not. It's a lot easier to take your favorite/accurate 22lr ammo and turn it into a better hp bullet.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/scorpion22lr_zps628e847b.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/scorpion22lr_zps628e847b.jpg.html)

More hp's, this time for the 38spl's. The mold cast a 170gr fn bullet or a 158gr hp. I spend most of my time on the 50ft line anymore so I make 50ft loads. I shoot around 5,000 of these bullets a year, that's a difference of 350 bullets compared to shooting the 170gr bullets. While 350 bullets doesn't sound like a lot, that's 350 more pulls of the trigger, 350 lee 312-160gr tl to use in the 308's or 06's or other bullets. A couple of my favorite plinking loads, 6-shot groups doing around 870fps in my 6" bbl'd revolvers. At the end of the day I'd rather have 5000 of these hp's/loads laying around rather than a 870fps plinking load with bullets like the lee 158gr rnfp bullet.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/mihecaccuracy_zpsckrmeiad.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/mihecaccuracy_zpsckrmeiad.jpg.html)

I also use that same Mihec 640 158gr hp in the snub nosed 38spl p+ loads/revolvers. Again I'd rather use a hp bullet for this 970+fps/2" bbl'd revolver rather than a bullet with a large meplat or a wc design.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/undercover_zpsdbyc4p2b.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/undercover_zpsdbyc4p2b.jpg.html)

More hp's in short bbl's. This time a 125gr hp doing around 1050fps in a 3.2" bbl'd 9mm.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/9mmtaurus_zpsnlqcm8kg.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/9mmtaurus_zpsnlqcm8kg.jpg.html)

Some say there's a narrow window for hp's to work in and leave it at that. Myself, I choose not to turn a blind eye to them use them quite a bit in 2 main areas.
There are other things to hunt besides deer. I like to use hp's on coyotes, wild dogs, feral cat's, ground hogs, skunks, etc. I have several hp molds for the rifles along with swaging my own hp's (lead & jacketed).
I also tend to gravitate to hp's when it comes to sd/hd bullets in short bbl'd firearms or subsonics. One of the best sd/hd ammo makers out there (IMHO) is buffalo bore. When looking at their short bbl'd sd/hd ammo or the sd/hd ammo used in short bbl'd firearms. I kept seeing the same theme with the different calibers.
A lead bullet doing around 1000fps in short bbl'd firearms.
A soft, around 8bhn hp in their short bbl'd sd/hd ammo.
To some that is a small window to operate in. To me that covers my snub nosed 38spl's, snub nosed 44spl's, short bbl's compact 9mm's and my 1911/5" bbl'd 45acp's. Yup, same alloy to cast hp's for 4 different calibers/multiple firearms. I also use that same alloy for plinking bullets and cores for a lot of the jacketed bullets I make.

Anyway, not saying a hp is better or worse than a standard bullet. Myself, I don't mind casting them or hb bullets. And I do find a use for them just as I do rn/swc/fn/sp bullets.

[DanishM1Garand]

I use Gold Dots in my carry pistol. I do NOT reload my self defense ammo for carry pistols. I want to give a DA nothing to work with in a trial. I do use reloaded #1 buck in my house shotgun.

Im reminded of the cop on trial for killing a man in the line of duty. The dust cover on his rifle had a profanity on it "YOU'RE F@CKED". Yup the DA grabbed onto that like a pit bull terrier.

Gold Dot on the other hand is a cute shiny name that sounds like Happy Puppies. Don't give a soccer mom on the jury anything to demonize you.

[OS OK]

It's getting so that anything one says will put 'someone off ...somewhere'! GEEEZ!

Forrest_r..."Monkeying around" is not a derogatory term where I was raised...it is meant to say the same as; 'fool with', 'experiment', 'tinker', 'see what I can do with it'...etc.
Last time I started a fuss over mentioning the expression..."tinkering''...one of the fellas fell full out over that.

Other than that I appreciate your input...

Danish...Fill those HP's with silicone...tell the jury you changed your mind about the HP's and filled them in.

[jmort]

^^^
Look at how fussy you get when you perceive someone is being dismissive of you. Your post was condescending and rightly taken as such.

[OS OK]

^^^
Look at how fussy you get when you perceive someone is being dismissive of you. Your post was condescending and rightly taken as such.

I could have gone all week without hearing from you...now that I have, maybe you'll go back to the pit for a while!

In case you haven't noticed...the following was in my reply about the HP'ing kits...
I think it's a very fine option for those who just want to monkey around​ ('fool with', 'experiment', 'tinker', 'see what I can do with it'...etc.) with some HP's...maybe to convince themselves to actually start casting them...I'm glad you brought it up.It's a good addition to this thread and those look like they were cast too.

Take your negative back to the pit where you belong!

[jmort]

Like I said.

[Josh Smith]

I used to be obsessed with hollowpoints.

Now, I do carry them for defense and some varmint rifle loads, but since getting into muzzleloading with round balls, I've just not been convinced they're needed if the bullet isn't jacketed.

Regards,

Josh

[OS OK]

I used to be obsessed with hollowpoints.

Now, I do carry them for defense and some varmint rifle loads, but since getting into muzzleloading with round balls, I've just not been convinced they're needed if the bullet isn't jacketed.

Regards,

Josh

obsessed...​yeppers, that's me. I've been able to learn so much more about casting, all the little nuances of the variables...little 'ticks' different molds have...it's been an interesting trip.

[obssd1958]

obsessed...​yeppers, that's me. I've been able to learn so much more about casting, all the little nuances of the variables...little 'ticks' different molds have...it's been an interesting trip.

No.........

I'm Obsessed​ !!!!!!!!

[Beagle333]

I like HPs. I like the way they look and the way they shoot and the way they expand. I realize there is no real need for them, but I just like them. They are the only reason I got into casting in the first place. If there had been any commercial HPs out there for me to load, besides those knurled swaged ones, I would have kept on buying my bullets from commercial lead casters. (Missouri and such) But since there wasn't, I decided to learn to cast my own. And now I can cast about 50 different HP boolits...... and I'm happy!! :D

[OS OK]

"Uh-Oh! I'm busted!"

[44man]

"Uh-Oh! I'm busted!"
Not to worry, I fell off the same side of the boat.
Now I will tell the truth of the matter, I LOVE HP's and pure lead and yet with what I shoot and hunt there is a wall in front of me that bounced me back in the boat.
I did not stutter! There is a good reason for both and I will not say bad because we all do things and shoot things differently.
I have cast and swaged so many HP's over the years it is fearful but now they don't fit MY stuff. Even in jacketed, I preferred a HP but it was still usage in the end.
I can only say go to town and enjoy the trip.

[OS OK]

Thanks, 44...I'm having a good time, I like to try to 'tinker out the details' that otherwise go unnoticed in general casting.

Just trying to put together a thread where a frustrated HP caster might come and figure out what he possibly did wrong...or entice a newbie to try HP's they make for themselves.

From comments I've read many times, it seems that the typical caster doesn't realize the subtleties of blending Pb. A little percentage change of any of the metals will go a long ways towards success or failure casting and testing the HP.

[44man]

What do we live for my friends? To play, have fun and experiment.

[BCB]

I thought I might just post another pic of a few hollow points I did with the Forster and drill press combination…

The top 2 are 311041’s and both hit deer and did what they were to do. I shot them from a Model ’94. The one that is nearly a perfect mushroom was found in the ground (maybe the ground caused the better mushroom?) the spring following the fall deer season. I marked the area where I shot the deer by tossing a nickel on the ground. I went back in the spring and found the nickel under leaves and such with a metal detector and then searched that area and found the boolit…

The ones on the bottom are N.O.E. 311-202-RN that I have been messing with in a 30-40 Krag. I just fired them this morning into wet catalogs. The one on the left was at 50 yards and the one on the right was at 100 yards…

All of the boolits were shot in the 1700 fps to 1800 fps and are cast from pure lead…

I actually think hollow pointing does make a lead boolit more effective when using it for hunting purposes…

Making them is labor intensive and tedious to an extent. But, being retired, I reckon I have a bit of extra time…

Good-luck…BCB

[OS OK]

BCB...thanks for posting the pics/facts...what was your lube? Are you getting any leading? How does the pure lead group?

[Forrest r]

It's getting so that anything one says will put 'someone off ...somewhere'! GEEEZ!

Forrest_r..."Monkeying around" is not a derogatory term where I was raised...it is meant to say the same as; 'fool with', 'experiment', 'tinker', 'see what I can do with it'...etc.
Last time I started a fuss over mentioning the expression..."tinkering''...one of the fellas fell full out over that.

Other than that I appreciate your input...

Danish...Fill those HP's with silicone...tell the jury you changed your mind about the HP's and filled them in.

I'm not put off, just raised different. In my little world monkeying around means just what it was intended to mean.

monkey around

VERB



to behave in a silly, casual, or careless way
synonyms: fool around (http://www.bing.com/search?q=define+fool+around) · mess around (http://www.bing.com/search?q=define+mess+around) · joke (http://www.bing.com/search?q=define+joke) · play the fool (http://www.bing.com/search?q=define+play+the+fool) · clown around · lark (http://www.bing.com/search?q=define+lark)

[BCB]

BCB...thanks for posting the pics/facts...what was your lube? Are you getting any leading? How does the pure lead group?

With the Keith-style boolits, I do get some leading in front of the forcing cone in handguns. I only shoot those boolits in handguns…

The ones I shoot in rifles, or T/C handguns, are all gas-checked so leading is very minimal…

As far as grouping, I never shoot enough of them to really get much of an idea. I generally try a few at 50 yards and sometimes with the rifle/T/C ones I do reach out to 100 yards—just to see what happens…

For me, they are a very specialty boolit and are quite labor intensive to make. So the shooting is minimal…

I mostly only shoot at game at the 50 yards or less range with the rifle boolits and even less distance with the handguns, so as to make very efficient hits. I am not a fan of hitting the animal and letting it bleed-out. Plus, I really don’t like to trail critters anymore—that can be work…

I used to use Carnauba Red when I first started to cast a dozen or so years ago. I have now gone completely to stick Alox or Liquid Alox if I am going to shoot “as cast”. Alox can be sticky as we know, but I think it has worked better from me—although I have no real “scientific” evidence!...

When I cast, I use a 20-pound Lee furnace and I keep a 10-pound Lee furnace beside the 20-pounder. I have pure lead in the small furnace. When I get near the end of my casting session with WW, I turn the small furnace on and cast a few with pure lead. The mold is good and hot and I heat the lead to about as hot as the 10-pounder will get. This seems to allow for a better pour of the lead…

Oh well, just sort of fun to make these hollow points and see how they perform, if only in wet catalogues, or through water-filled beer cans and then into water-filled plastic gallon jugs…

One must keep retirement from getting boring!!!... (It's that "idle hands" thing we hear about!)

Good-luck…BCB

[jmort]

I'm not put off, just raised different. In my little world monkeying around means just what it was intended to mean.

monkey around

VERB



to behave in a silly, casual, or careless way
synonyms: fool around (http://www.bing.com/search?q=define+fool+around) · mess around (http://www.bing.com/search?q=define+mess+around) · joke (http://www.bing.com/search?q=define+joke) · play the fool (http://www.bing.com/search?q=define+play+the+fool) · clown around · lark (http://www.bing.com/search?q=define+lark)








The term has always been derogatory. You put up a serious and excellent post. I go by Merriam Webster, and fact are facts, unless you want to lie about it when you get called out. So it was either intentional, as reading the post makes it clear, or simple ignorance, possible, but unlikely:

Definition of monkey around


informal


: to do things that are not useful or serious : to waste time We just monkeyed around all afternoon. a young scientist monkeying around in the lab

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/monkey%20around

[44man]

Don't be harsh. I monkey around all the time. But safely. It is how I figured out revolvers. I test everything and prove most in writing is wrong. Gun rags to the net, I monkey around everything and it proved everyone with a theory was the monkey.
I was there and found so much false to lead everyone to an opinion that did not bear fruit, I set out to buck all the junk.
Yet I never found a spruce plate:groner: to work.

[Elkins45]

What do we live for my friends? To play, have fun and experiment.

I have yet to try one of those heavy subsonic hollow points from 300 Blackout on a deer because I haven't been successful enough with my experiment. I'm just about there in terms of accuracy, but now I have to figure out the expansion piece. I'm following this thread with interest to learn about testing them before maybe wounding a live animal.

I may have to break down and buy some of that jello all the YouTube guys like to murder. :)

[44man]

Jello does not work. The huge cavity is a secondary that collapses. Lungs are mostly air.
Will a deer die faster breathing in or out?
No stuff you can shoot into will equal an animal.

[OS OK]

The term has always been derogatory. You put up a serious and excellent post. I go by Merriam Webster, and fact are facts, unless you want to lie about it when you get called out. So it was either intentional, as reading the post makes it clear, or simple ignorance, possible, but unlikely:

Definition of monkey around


informal


: to do things that are not useful or serious : to waste time We just monkeyed around all afternoon. a young scientist monkeying around in the lab

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/monkey%20around







You Mr.Mort are getting very tiring. I've explained before what I mean about...'Monkeying Around' and the context, (pasted in below) plainly shows my intent. Nothing malicious there, period.

All my life I've used this term. Trying to manufacture a motor mount for an old truck for instance...My wife asks what I'm doing, how much longer...dinner is about ready? I reply that I'm monkeying with this motor mount till I get the angles figured out. Illustrative of me working with something new or completely foreign to me but I'm going to fiddle with it till it's figured out.
In my contracting business I married up computer controls to antiquated machinery when there were no general instructions available...it was all done on the fly...I would ask one of my journeymen who has his head buried in a motor control cabinet..."What's up with this controller?" His answer would be something like..."I'm having problems with this particular motor starter, just going to monkey it to work until the new one gets delivered."
As far as your Merriam Webster...well, we didn't operate by that in casual conversation.
As far as you trying to imply that I'm a liar...well, that's as far as I'm going with you...I'm not going to have it. I have already invited you out of this thread and you refuse to move on...now I ask one of the moderators to review this thread and make some kind of determination.

I am trying to run an informative thread here and you can't seem to figure this out...instead, you want to disrupt and now name call...that's enough!
Will you cease and desist...go start your own thread, call it what you want and run it any way you want...believe me I'm not interested and I will not come onto your post and cause you problems...I really think you need to return to the pit where your behavior is acceptable.

[my statement previously explained...] In case you haven't noticed...the following was in my reply about the HP'ing kits...
I think it's a very fine option for those who just want to monkey around​ ('fool with', 'experiment', 'tinker', 'see what I can do with it'...etc.) with some HP's...maybe to convince themselves to actually start casting them...I'm glad you brought it up. It's a good addition to this thread and those look like they were cast too.

If one of you Mods would review this thread and make a determination ...I'd appreciate it.
If you find me at fault, then lock this thread and "I will cease and desist"
...If you find this mort fella to be the problem...please get him out of my thread. Simple as that!

charlie

[jmort]

I will leave this thread alone. As far as moderation of the thread, I have no problem with that. You have not been here long enough to "get it." Words have factual, specific definitions. You seem to want to pretend otherwise.

[44man]

Let it go fellas. It is not important. Only wording and I have the same problem when my friend comes over. He refers to a mold as a die. I lose him all the time until I see he is calling a mold a die. I correct him all the time but it is no use.
I do have fun with a "SPRUCE" Plate but I know what the guy means. Spell check does not see sprue as a word.
For me, I will continue to monkey around.
Why doesn't my dog talk? I can understand her but darn I wish she would talk. Is it a treat or I need to poop?

[OS OK]

Maybe he confuses the 'die' part with 'die casting' which is 'casting' of sorts, only under pressure?
I see that spruce thing all the time here too...I figure it's these dang spell checkers, they aren't as well versed in the lingo. Maybe it's a conspiracy thing again where our new world order vocabulary is being shaped...some biblical terms never show up on spell checker, it's as if they don't exist...either way I resist!
My friends know what I mean and of course a friend doesn't scrutinize every word with 'malice of intent'. Believe it or not...we don't all converse the same across America, especially if you are from the south.

SO...now after wasting all this space arguing maybe we can get back to HP's...all the wrongs and rights that we can find out about...and maybe too, do some troubleshooting if anyone has any specific problems they want to share to get solved?

[44man]

Yes, there is DIE cast but it is done in a mold.
Same as mold or mould, which is correct?
Anyway lets be friends to share. Get back to the real questions.

[Col4570]

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s452/livebattery/sidepourmouldforlargewhitworthRifle002.jpg (http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/livebattery/media/sidepourmouldforlargewhitworthRifle002.jpg.html)
Although a Black Powder Muzzle loading bullet I thought it might be of interest.It has both Hollow Base and Hollow Point.I modified the Lyman Mould for a large calibre Whitworth Rifle as per Joseph Whitworths original Bullet .The Hollow Point is intended for a Wooden Plug There is 1/4" solid between the two Hollows.

[Elkins45]

Jello does not work. The huge cavity is a secondary that collapses. Lungs are mostly air.

No stuff you can shoot into will equal an animal.

I know that nothing is an equal, but does that mean nothing can give us useful information?


Will a deer die faster breathing in or out?

I don't understand what you mean.

[Elkins45]

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s452/livebattery/sidepourmouldforlargewhitworthRifle002.jpg (http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/livebattery/media/sidepourmouldforlargewhitworthRifle002.jpg.html)
Although a Black Powder Muzzle loading bullet I thought it might be of interest.It has both Hollow Base and Hollow Point.I modified the Lyman Mould for a large calibre Whitworth Rifle as per Joseph Whitworths original Bullet .The Hollow Point is intended for a Wooden Plug There is 1/4" solid between the two Hollows.

What is the purpose of the wooden plug?

[44man]

I know that nothing is an equal, but does that mean nothing can give us useful information?




I don't understand what you mean.
Not much will equal an animal.
I meant a deer with lungs full of air or exhaled. Would there be a difference?

[OS OK]

What is the purpose of the wooden plug?

When you run out of powder you thread one of those gorgantious slugs on stick and continue fighting with an 'old school blackjack'!

Are you kidding...I have no idea either...what's the wooden plug for? . . . :bigsmyl2:


Post/edit/question...do you put both of those plugs in the mold and pour from the side? Is that a lead track into the side of the cast? Do you have to hold that mold with that side of the mold higher than the other (operators) side to vent air out of the nose? Never saw a mold like that...course I don't do BP either.

[Elkins45]

Not much will equal an animal.
I meant a deer with lungs full of air or exhaled. Would there be a difference?

I would be very surprised if there were any sort of a difference.

[10 ga]

I started to go through the poll and got tired of reading and trying to figure out what was lacto or facto. My eyes got tired. I rarely shoot HP bullets. I do shoot hollow base bullets mostly ML. Sometimes just wadcutters loaded backwards as hollow points. Can I have a do over? I studied and am ready for the testing now! Does neatness count? Do I have to answer in given order or can I skip forward and back at random? Do you want our names on the top or bottom of the page, and first or last page, or all pages front and back? Can we just use our nicknames, you know who we are. Do you take off for spelting and/or badly punctuation? Why does grandpaw try to convince me school is easy, I don't think so? 10 ga

[OS OK]

There must be a 'full moon' over there in Va., how else could this goof be explained? Maybe he escaped from somewhere.

Somebody just lock this dang thread...I give up. We can't get through a full day without this kind of intrusion.

This folks is a fine example of what I call a 'Drive by Poster'!