Winchester 1892 problem

[labradigger1]

I bought a 1892 rifle (not carbine) with a 24" octagon barrel last week at an estate sale. Today is the first time I had a chance to load some ammo for it.
Rifle made in 1904
Loads are 117 grain fn cast and lined with bens red.
13.5 grains of IMR 4227
Remington 6-1/2 primers
No crimp, I've been single loading the chamber.

Edit: forgot to mention I full length resized these.

Now for the problem. The primers are backing out after firing and metal is flowing back around the firing pin. This is never fired brass I pulled down from bp loaded ammo.
After seeing this I grabbed my 218 bee go/no go gauges and iirc they work for 32/20 and 25/20 as well. My bolt closes easily on the no go gauge.

So what say you?
Excessive pressure?
Excessive headspace?
Should not be full length resized?

[buckshotshoey]

Grab a micrometer and measure the difference between the FLR brass and the once fired and let us know what you've found. Mainly near the case head area.

It might be the firing pin hole in the bolt is too big and causing the cratering effect.

[labradigger1]

After inspecting the fired cases for damage I found 2 that have split in the web area.

[buckshotshoey]

You posted that at same time as I did! Lol. Time for a chamber cast. Could be dealing with a rechambered rifle?

[labradigger1]

Grab a micrometer and measure the difference between the FLR brass and the once fired and let us know what you've found. Mainly near the case head area.

It might be the firing pin hole in the bolt is too big and causing the catering effect.


.351 against the rim on fired cases
.347 on full length sized and loaded cartridge.

[buckshotshoey]

.351 against the rim on fired cases
.347 on full length sized and loaded cartridge.

I assume they shrunk in lenght also?

[labradigger1]

I assume they shrunk in lenght also?

Nope.
1.30 unfired
1.32 fired
The grew in length .02

[Dan Cash]

Look at your bolt face/firing pin hole as it looks like it is too large. Erosion from lots of old time corrosive powder and primers. There are other things going on as well. Agree it is time for a chamber cast.

[buckshotshoey]

Headspace shouldn't be a problem. It is controlled by the rim. I suggest a chamber cast. And to cover bases, slug the barrel.

[labradigger1]

I'll see if I can find my cerrosafe.
Why the reccomendation to slug the barrel? I will need to know for proper bullet size but what would it help with the other issues?
The bore isn't the best or the worst. It is pitted and if I experience leading I can't fire lap out I was planning on installing a liner and rechambering to 218 bee.

[buckshotshoey]

Just to check if it's been altered. Possible. .351 seems to be right on for a .32- 20. You did say that's what it was, correct?

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Goodness, how old is that brass, don't be a scrooge buy some new ones!

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I agree with Wallace, that brass is old, looks like it was made in the '40s, maybe even the 30's. Brass does get brittle. Buckshot gave me some 30-40 Krag ammo and some of them were stamped REM-UMC. All those so marked split on the first firing. I would think twice about altering that rifle. It will cut its value a lot if altered. It may surprise you how well it shoots when you get the brass problem sorted out.

[labradigger1]

Goodness, how old is that brass, don't be a scrooge buy some new ones!

Ha, not a Scrooge but a few weeks back I reformed every 32/20 I had into 218 bee. If no problems with the gun I'll buy 500 from star line. This was old loaded ammo I had on hand. About 20 fired and he rest had bad primers

[buckshotshoey]

It would seem your fired dimensions are kosher. I concur with above. C**p brass. With an unknown previous owner, I would still chambercast and slug. Couldn't do any harm and may provide some insight.

[earlmck]

Looks like you have a black-powder era firing pin -- they were considerably larger in diameter with consequently larger diameter firing pin hole so you get that poofy look with warm loads. And you are loading a pretty warm load for old brass and an old rifle (QuickLoad thinks you are somewhat above 30K psi). Drop down a couple grains of that powder (maybe even 3 grains) and see if things don't look a lot better.

I shoot a 25/20 of similar age with similar looking primers if I load it warm. I quit loading warm and everything looks better and the brass lasts longer.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

A lot of old Winchesters back out their primers slightly, including my 1886, made in 1887, and I suspect that they always did. It is pretty harmless, and an indication that the brass is adhering momentarily to the chamber walls. Nor is that sort of clearance in the rear chamber diameter unduly large. I bow to the expertise of those who know the cartridge better than I do, and it might be advisable to reduce the charge slightly. It certainly shouldn't make a material difference to the effectiveness of the cartridge, unless you count having a little powder left when the canister could have been empty. But those primers don't suggest that excessive pressure is the problem.

For the brass splitting, I would be surprised if different brass wouldn't solve the problem. It isn't the head separation, total or incipient, which arises from a headspace and brass stretch problem. For the cratered primers, I would suspect a large firing-pin hole and/or a small or badly shaped firing-pin tip. Two or three removals of rust from pin and hole in its long lifetime could have done that, and it could have been done by someone who had been conscientiously cleaning the bore.

It is certainly worth seeing how it will shoot, possibly trying different loads, before doing anything drastic with the bore. Sometimes jacketed bullets work better, or even clean up the bore that subsequently improves its performance with cast. It isn't in outstandingly collectible condition, but yes, relining the bore would reduce its value... a bit. This is a delightful rifle to shoot, and nobody has really matched it with a modern clone. Plenty of people would like - really like - one with a mint bore, no matter how it got one. You just have to decide whether the formula pans out (cost price, gunsmithing price, enjoyment and resale price), and reflect on what Mr. Browning would want done.

CP + GP + E = RP

[labradigger1]

Thanks for the replies so far guys.
I'm working on getting some new brass to see how much that alone solves

[ulav8r]

Primers backing out is an indication of excessive head space, but not necessarily dangerously excessive. Yes, rimmed cartridges will not alleviate excess headspace. At around 30K psi, excessive headspace can be a problem; mainly with brass life and possibly causing peening of the locking bolts and their mortices.

The two likely causes of excessive headspace are a too deep rim cut, or wear in the locking bolts and/or their mortices.

[The Ozzman]

Hi mate, what are the chamber specs like?

To me sounds like this would be a headspacing issue, barring any major issues with the bolt face.

Have you made any progress on this? Sorry if I have missed this, but have you tested the difference between low velocity loads and higher velocity?

Take a scientific approach; manipulate one variable at a time and record results. As you probably know, if you are tweaking multiple variables at one time, you cannot determine possible correlation. Take your time, work through potential causes one by one.

Keen to hear how you go, the 1892 is, in my opinion, a very fine rifle that serves for both hunting and defense.

Cheerio

[labradigger1]

Hi mate, what are the chamber specs like?

To me sounds like this would be a headspacing issue, barring any major issues with the bolt face.

Have you made any progress on this? Sorry if I have missed this, but have you tested the difference between low velocity loads and higher velocity?

Take a scientific approach; manipulate one variable at a time and record results. As you probably know, if you are tweaking multiple variables at one time, you cannot determine possible correlation. Take your time, work through potential causes one by one.

Keen to hear how you go, the 1892 is, in my opinion, a very fine rifle that serves for both hunting and defense.

Cheerio


Haven't had time for any further testing.

[flint45]

I have a win 76 and a win 86 both do the same thing with the primers on mine its the firing pin hole. They are big just the way they are still shoots fine. Ithink good brass and minimal sizing will help. Neck size only I have a Lee Enfield with excessive head space full lenth size brass life is no good neck size only they last a good long time cast boolit loads also.

[labradigger1]

Slugged the bore tonight. Bore is rough as seen in the pic. Slugged at .315
Pic is not the best as iPads don't have a flash.

[labradigger1]

A little progress tonight.

I cast some 117 grain fn the other day and this evening powder coated around a hundred with super wet black pc.

I honed out a Lee .311 sizing die to .315 and sized all the bullets.

Now for some new info. When I poured IMR 4227 into a B&m measure I noticed red airborne dust. When I looked in the can it was rusted. This is the same can I used last time for this rifle.
It's an old can, mostly full but it went to the bucket with other bad powder. I pulled another can from the shelf and same thing. Lastly I grabbed a plastic jug of 4227 and obviously no rust.

New pc'd bullets were loaded over 12.2 grains of new IMR 4227, Rem srp bench rest and new starline brass.

Results? Great looking primers this time and cases also.

I'm thinking perhaps the rust dust could have changed the density of the powder in my first loads and increased pressure. Could also have been either old brass or just too hot of a load.

I only fired a couple rounds through the rifle because it's dark here but one thing I noticed was the lack of flash from the muzzle. With the first loads lubed and sized to .311 I had fliers of burning powder coming out of the muzzle on angles and fizzing out. They were very visible in daylight. None with the pc boolits at .315.

Next will be load development and bullet size tests. I also need to figure out why the lever is very stiff half way through the stroke. Same stiff spot opening or closing. Lever functions perfectly with either cartride guide in but not both. I checked for debris behind the guides but they are clean. Lever is stiff enough that you almost need to smack it open or closed.