38 Special case resizing

[Char-Gar]

I am a huge fan of the 38 Special cartridge and have accumulated allot of reloading equipment, looking for the best way to load the ammo. I want great accuracy and long case life. The long case life is particularly important with wadcutter brass, which is not easy to come by anymore.

Here are some specs on case resizing dies I found in my notes and through I would pass them along. I used Lake City 78 38 Special brass for the comparison.

I measured the resized cases at the base, the mid-point, the case mouth and the ID of the case mouth. I used RCBS carbide die (R1), a 1958 RCBS steel die (R2) and a Lyman Tru-line Jr. full length die (L) of undetermined age.

Base: R1 - .377, R2 - .3775, L - .379
Mid-case: R1 -.372, R2 - .3765, L - .377
Mouth: R1 - .371 , R2 - 371, L - .376
Mouth ID; R1 - .351, R2 - .351, L - .356

A look at these numbers tell me R1 and R1 produce identical case mouth specs. However the R1 (carbide) sized the case the same as the mouth all the way down to near the base.

The Lyman produces a case larger at the mouth, the mid-point and base. Cases sized with this Lyman die still chamber freely in the dozen Smith and Wesson and Colt revolvers in my safe.

The Lyman die requires less case mouth expansion to seat the bullets.

With the current lot of R-P wadcutter brass I am using the outside numbers are the same, but the ID of the case mouth is .358. This means I only need a slight bell to seat .358 - .359 cast bullets. I use a light taper crimp to keep these bullet in place.

There is no such thing as "everlasting" brass cases, but case life can be greatly extended by working the brass less. The less the better. I also hold that rounds that fit the cylinder charge holes with less slop will introduce the bullet into the cylinder throat straighter for better accuracy.

For ordinary cases like the LC 78, I use the RCBS steel die, but for the precious wadcutter brass I use the Lyman Tru-Line Jr. FL die.

I have older steel steel dies by Pacific, CH, and Lyman Shell Resizer and their dimension are not significantly different from the steel RCBS die. The Lyman Tru-Line Jr. seems to be the outlier in this regard.

I have a Redding Turret press set up for just 38 Special use, and both the Lyman TL Jr and the steel RCBS are installed in the turret.
__________________________________________________

For the 45 ACP, I use my RCBS carbide die as there is not significant different in the finish dimensions from the various steel dies in my collection.

For the 44 Special and Magnum, I use steel dies as there is a significant difference in the finish dimensions from the carbide dies.

For the 45 Colt, I use steel dies and again there is a significant difference in the finished dimensions from the carbide dies.

__________________________________________________

For those reloaders who consider not having to lubricate cases more important than case life, none of the above is significant to you.

[fecmech]

I am fortunate in that I have a CH carbide die that came with my CH Auto Champ that measures on RP WC brass essentially the same as your tru line die. I have found better accuracy using this die for all my 38/357 loads and use it for everything. My Lyman carbide die sizes.003" smaller. I have no chambering problems and no bullet pull issues in either special or mag loads using a mild taper crimp and .358/.359 bullets.

[30calflash]

Good to know, thank you.

I've heard of some bullseye shooters using 45 colt sizing dies to work the brass less for match shooting for the same reason.

[Char-Gar]

Good to know, thank you.

I've heard of some bullseye shooters using 45 colt sizing dies to work the brass less for match shooting for the same reason.

There is only a slight difference between a 45 ACP case sized in a ACP die and a 45 Colt die, but it might make a difference in very critical high end competitions. Of course, real match 1911 pistols have a tighter chamber anyway. Competition shooters look for any mechanical edge they can find, no matter how slight.

[Char-Gar]

@Char-Gar,

I am not sure about your R-P wadcutter brass, but I have found ordinary R-P brass to give a larger ID after resizing than other manufacturer's brass (?thinner brass?). The ID is often so large than I have had jacketed bullets slowly sink into the case due to zero neck tension. My solution was to obtain an undersized resizing die so that R-P brass would reload like other normal brass. You may have a similar situation that gives the wadcutters more room, resulting in less seating force. It is even possible, that any R-P brass you have may work just as well as your current treasured lot of wadcutter brass. It would be most interesting if you resized and compared the measurements on a couple of standard R-P cases.

Marshall

OK, I dug out an R-P standard case and ran it through the Lyman steel die and then the RCBS steel die. The outside specs are the same as the same given above. Then I measured the neck thickness with a tubing micrometer and both R-P (standard and wadcutter) cases were .009" thick. One the other hand a Lake City case is .014" thick. The ID of the R-P standard case with the Lyman die is .358 and .354 with the RCBS steel.

A case sized with the Lyman die would not give enough case neck tension to hold many cast or jacketed bullets. However with .354 tension from the RCBS steel die, you will be fine.

There is no difference in the R-P wadcutter brass and the standard R-P brass other than the longer straight parallel sides in the wadcutter brass. Of course, it is not reasonable not to expect different lots of R-P brass to vary.

For good measure, I pulled out some 38 Special cases of other makes and measured the brass thickness at the necks. Here they are;

W-W - .011
Federal - .010
PMC - .011

Thus it would appear that Remington brass at .009 is the thinnest of the cases I measured.

I will note that as the brass cold worked in the die, it will have an effect on the tension as the resizing continues through several cycles.

[USSR]

Char-Gar,

Like you, I use RCBS steel dies for the .45 Colt due to the tapered chambers that .45 Colt chambers have. However, I have a lot of .38 Special wadcutter brass and use a carbide resizing die for them along with a custom made expander die that opens up the wadcutter brass mouths to .3575" for my .358" wadcutters.

Don

[Char-Gar]

Char-Gar,

Like you, I use RCBS steel dies for the .45 Colt due to the tapered chambers that .45 Colt chambers have. However, I have a lot of .38 Special wadcutter brass and use a carbide resizing die for them along with a custom made expander die that opens up the wadcutter brass mouths to .3575" for my .358" wadcutters.

Don

At one time, RCBS offered by special order a long .3585 expander for wadcutter brass. Used in standard brass it would bulge the brass where the internal taper began. There was enough spring back in the brass for a .358 bullet to have a slight friction fit. It is on the far in this group of RCBS 38 expanders.

[M-Tecs]

At one time, RCBS offered by special order a long .3585 expander for wadcutter brass. Used in standard brass it would bulge the brass where the internal taper began. There was enough spring back in the brass for a .358 bullet to have a slight friction fit. It is on the far in this group of RCBS 38 expanders.

Didn't know they did that.

[Char-Gar]

Didn't know they did that.

Not only do they not offer them, but the last time I called RCBS, they didn't know they ever made them. The institutional memory there is pretty short, as least by those who answer the phones.

[Outpost75]

I got one from Redding which I did as a custom order at Commercial Row at Camp Perry about 20 years ago.

Back then when they took my order they asked for sample cases and cases and bullets I was using to be sure to get the dimensions correct.

I got a die set with custom steel sizer, long expander plug, flat-plug seater without crimp and separate profile crimper dimensioned for Remington .38 wadcutter brass and Remington 148-grain HBWC bullets.

My expander plug is .3575" with a mirror-finished cylindrical section 0.5" long with full hemispherical radius end and 7-1/2 degree flared transition to a .360" diameter cylindrical above the flare.

If you need to ask what a full custom wadcutter die set costs, you probably cannot afford it, but that is what it takes to load ammo as good as the factory stuff. Reloads assembled in these dies with Remington 1-1/2 primers, Remington HBWC bullets and 3 grains of Alliant Bullseye will average 1-1/2" at 50 yards for ten consecutive 10-shot groups fired from a slave action and heavy test barrel fired from a return-to-battery rest indoors in an underground test tunnel constructed in a poured concrete box culvert where I worked at the time...

Unfired Remington-Bridgeport (1960s) wadcutter rounds measure .377" diameter at the base ahead of the rim, .3755" at their mid-point below the lower cannelure and .376" at the case mouth over the roll crimp.

After firing in my Colt Officer's Model Match target revolver once-fired cases from the same lot measure .381", .379" and .379"

After resizing in the custom Redding Die they measure .380", .3755" and .375"

After expanding they measure .379", .376", and .376"

After loading, assembly and profile crimp the rounds measure .379", .3755" and .376", exactly the same as new Remington rounds.

This is what the boxes and headstamps of my old ammo look like:

191007

[Char-Gar]

Outpost75....It is very hard to make me envious, but you have managed to make it happen. I can't think of a more ideal set up for 38 Special target ammo. I have managed to cobble up a set of dies that is close, but not as precise as yours. How old are you and who are you going to will those dies to?

[Outpost75]

Outpost75....It is very hard to make me envious, but you have managed to make it happen. I can't think of a more ideal set up for 38 Special target ammo. I have managed to cobble up a set of dies that is close, but not as precise as yours. How old are you and who are you going to will those dies to?

I am 68 and hope to be using them for a few more years... 8-)

[308Jeff]

Didn't really think of the significance of wadcutter brass until this thread. 3 or 4 years ago I bought a fair amount of once fired, in original boxes, from someone online. Gonna see if I can dig it out tomorrow to have a closer look at it.

[Dale53]

A friend of mine from out of state asked me to move his no longer needed reloading stuff. He had a pile of stuff and I was able to move it for him. He offered 1000 rounds of once fired wadcutter brass in the original boxes for a fair price and I bought it. So, I am in pretty good shape for the coming season. I have been shooting a good bit of .38 Special in the past couple of years.

I mostly shoot my own cast wadcutters (from an original four cavity H&G mold for the #50 BB). I shoot Ed Harris' "Full Charge Wadcutter" load. I have mostly been using my S&W Model 520 (adjustable sighted seven shot revolver with a titanium cylinder and composite barrel) using a Red Dot Sight due to my vision problems. That has been a VERY satisfying combination.

FWIW,
Dale53

[Char-Gar]

I am 68 and hope to be using them for a few more years... 8-)

Drat...I am 74.6 and have all kinds of health issues. Unless you lock it up with a semi you will outlive me by quite a few years. :-)

[JBinMN]

I don't have anything to add here myself, but I wanted to tell ya'll that I enjoyed this topic. Topics like this make this forum one great place.
Thanks!
:)

[.22-10-45]

As I use pretty soft range scrap for my .38 loads, I found an older steel RCBS .38 Spec. die set on this site. I have made up custom expanders to prevent sizing bullets while seating. One thing I have found is to "neck size" only when sizing...set up sizer so as to only size to depth of seated bullet. Case is a closer fit in chamber & sizing is easier & faster. Best of luck.

[USSR]

Since we're talking .38 wadcutters, what's the story with the Albert's swaged lead wadcutters? I know they've been out of business for a number of years, but how did their wadcutters stack up to the ones available today? I bought 1500 of them for a very good price last year.

Don

[Outpost75]

I used about 20,000 Alberts wadcutters back in the day and properly loaded they were as accurate as Speer, Hornady or Precision-Delta. They required extra care in case mouth deburring, flaring, seating and crimping to avoid scraping off the MoS2 and polymer lube, and they could not be pushed fast because they were soft.

[blackhawk man]

Fascinating read.

[Low Budget Shooter]

Wow, you guys are great. I love reading this kind of stuff.

[Outpost75]

As another data point, some years ago I loaded several 5-gallon buckets full of "full-charge" wadcutters in once-fired, plain brass, uncannelured Speer .38 Spl. +P headstamped cases gleaned from a law enforcement training facility. These were loaded with Saeco #348 double-end, bevel-based wadcutters cast from indoor range backstop scrap, loaded as-cast and unsized, lubricated with Lee Liquid Alox, with CCI500 primers and 3.5 grains of Bullseye, using a Lee Factory Crimp Die as the last station to profile the rounds on the Dillon RL550B.

I recently came into a hoard of old Remington wadcutter boxes and decided I would box and repack some of this ammo. In doing so I found two rounds which slipped through the process without being reprimed, so I decided to pull the bullets and measure their diameters to see how much their as-cast diameter was reduced by compression inside the case, when profiling in the Lee Factory Crimp die. This batch of ammo has always shot well, and there were no surprises, but it was nice to validate my "gut" that because the ammo shot well, nothing was amiss.

As-cast diameter of the bullets was .360-.361," measuring over the lube film.

Diameter of the driving bands of the pulled bullets measured .358-.3585", as it should be.

Diameter of the exposed bevel base and front driving band after having been "kissed" by the seater die was a uniform .359" which is a press fit into the revolver chambers, but not enough to impair reloading with speed loaders.

191180 191181191182191183191184

[Mytmousemalibu]

Really great thread! I'm a big .38 Special fan and in particular love wadcutters. Subscribing to this one!

I have a fair bit of wadcutter brass but most of it is mixed in with regular brass that I need to separate out which stinks. The variation of case cannalure styles sucks to cherry pick out, not all is the same. I can tell you that current production Fiocchi .38 Wadcutter target loads are in brass that has no cannalure but it is head stamped as wadcutter, FYI. I don't know if its available as component only but Remington still sells a target wadcutter load and their 158gr. LSWCHP load is in nickel WC brass. I'd buy a gaggle of both but it's not exactly cheap. I wish Starline made WC brass. I have thought about trying to ream some regular brass for wadcutters.

[Outpost75]

Starline .38 Special brass I have measured is 0.010" thick down to a depth of 0.5 from the mouth and is comparable to Federal wadcutter brass. If doing this for serious competition, get a Sinclair neck turner with .357 pilot and outside neck turn cases to a uniform 0.010" to a depth of 0.5" from the mouth, to clean up any thick spots. Use Kroil on the pilot to prevent galling and then degrease in hot water with detergent and let dry thoroughly before doing the rest of your prep and loading.

After firing you will have a slight interior "step" under the bullet base, just like factory wadcutter brass.

[Mytmousemalibu]

Good to know, I like Starline so im glad it is serviceable for wadcutter use. I need to get a neck turner,a good one like the Sinclair. When 7.62x25 Tokarev brass was hard to find i case formed it off .223/5.56 brass which trimmed that far down presented a neck that was way too thick. So I made a bushing that fit my Redding case trimmer to hold a chucking reamer and used that to inside neck ream it. Worked very well and being a bottleneck cartridge, there was no reaming step.

[shtur]

Char-gar
I shoot International Centerfire with a .38 special revolver. I'm in my mid 60's and don't feel I could justify the expense of a S&W 52. I am always glad to see others publish/share their work with the .38 special here, so I can get any edge I can for my .38 special revolver loads.

Outpost75
Glad to see you are having great results with the REM-UMC cases. I bought 200 cases of .38 spl REM-UMC a while back and am loading them for matches only.

[.22-10-45]

Back in the late 1970's, I shot on a police combat league and we bought our wadcutters from a fellow club member. Even though we were only using 2.8grs. of 231..that guy casted those things HARD. Worse case of leading you ever saw! I tried to tell him about chamber pressure and obturation..but being only a kid at the time, he brushed me off. Well, that soured me on wadcutters..though I was just as wrong blaming that bullet style on leading. Never dreamed I would ever own a .38 wadcutter mould. Fast forward some thirty odd years...and now I own a bunch of e'm. I have a circa 1905 Colt Bisley 71/2" in .38 Colt, that just loves the Ideal 358344. There is just something in getting an old gun to shoot one hole groups using a bullet dropped from an equally old mould!

[OuchHot!]

Remington still sells a 38sp 148gr lead wadcutter match that they call "targetmaster" The manuf. part number is AR38S3 and it has two cannelures. Are these cases similar to the WC brass of times gone by?

[Outpost75]

Remington still sells a 38sp 148gr lead wadcutter match that they call "targetmaster" The manuf. part number is AR38S3 and it has two cannelures. Are these cases similar to the WC brass of times gone by?

Yes! They are the same, from recent samples I have measured!

[OuchHot!]

If anyone is interested in the rem wadcutter ammo, you can get on the "notify" list with target sports usa. This is being made and it shouldn't take long to get an opportunity to spend money. I have found good brass a bit scarce and hoard what little I have. This would be another (spendy) option.

[USSR]

Hit the jackpot today at my local gun club's swap meet. I got 3 boxes of Albert's 146gr Hydra-Shok wadcutters and 1 box of Albert's 148gr DE wadcutters for $80. That's 2,000 bullets at $.04 each. Got them from a relative of one of the 2 guys who designed the Hydra-Shok.

Don

[Petrol & Powder]

This is an outstanding thread.

THANK YOU Char-Gar and Outpost75 for sharing your very valuable knowledge.

I've always felt that some type of reamer could be used to remove some of the taper from 38 Special cases and the Sinclair neck turner mentioned by Outpost may be my solution.
And as Outpost did, I also pulled some wadcuuter bullets to check how much the brass was sizing the bullet down with my set up. Using WC cast in a RCBS mold and sized to .359" and seated in WC casings, I was getting .358" pulled bullets. My alloy is in the 10-11 BHn range which may be a bit hard but for simple logistics it will do. That setup is working pretty well in a variety of revolvers, again simple logistics dictates some compromise but I can live with that.

I really need to find a better 38 Special expander/powder funnel for my 550B.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I really need to find a better 38 Special expander/powder funnel for my 550B.

Does anybody have a solution for this issue? I'm in the same boat with the Dillon expander.

[Dale53]

Has anyone tried to talk to Dillon about the problem?

Dale53


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Petrol & Powder]

My first inclination was to take the Dillon expander for a 40 S&W and turn it down to the proper dimensions for 38 Special.

[Outpost75]

Outside neck turning with the case wall supported by a tight-fitting, lubricated pilot is MUCH better than trying to inside mouth ream, UNLESS the external case wall is forced into and firmly supported by a DIE, otherwise the reamer will just follow the existing hole, whether or not of uniform wall thickness, and only accentuates the errors.

Either way whether inside mouth reaming or outside neck turning the case wallk must be firmly supported by either an internal pilot, which is a forced-fit, lubricated to prevent galling, or its outside wall held in a size die, so that the result is a concentric neck wall. Otherwise the entire exercise is a waste of time!

[Petrol & Powder]

Outpost, how do you pick the size for the internal pilot?

[Outpost75]

Outpost, how do you pick the size for the internal pilot?

.38 Special max. ctg. dia. = .379"
- max. lead bullet diameter=. 359"
Twice mouth wall thickness= .020"
Sized case OD before expand = .375" typical
Expander plug for -0.0015 fit = .357 for 0.0005" springback of 2x fired case.

[Petrol & Powder]

Thanks !!

:drinks:

[Outpost75]

If case mouth wall is thicker than 0.011" consider a .3575" pilot, because if outside turning cut is enough to clean up the full circumference of the case mouth, you will get some relief of residual hoop stress in the case wall. Also depends upon sized outside diameter produced by of your sizing die and state of work hardening if you are not using unfired virgin brass!

[Petrol & Powder]

If case mouth wall is thicker than 0.011" consider a .3575" pilot, because if outside turning cut is enough to clean up the full circumference of the case mouth, you will get some relief of residual hoop stress in the case wall. Also depends upon sized outside diameter produced by of your sizing die and state of work hardening if you are not using unfired virgin brass!

OK, that makes sense. Based on Char-Gar's measurements from post #6, it looks like most commercial 38 Special brass runs .009" - .011". That makes a pretty good argument for your .010" Starline case wall thickness and a .357" pilot for the outside trimmer. Char-Gar reported he had LC brass that was running .014" but that military stuff seemed to be the exception.

I've learned more from reading these 42 posts than I have from some reloading manuals that I've practically memorized over the years.

Gentlemen, THANKS AGAIN.

[Outpost75]

My mentor, LTC Ellis Lea (USA, Ret.) was former XO of the Army Shooting Team and a contemporary of Joe Benner. He coached the USA shooting team at the 40th World Championships, and later was a firearms instructor with the Office of Public Safety for USAID, which is where I met him. He and Homer Culver figured all this out in the 1960s when trying to obtain uniform results with .38 Super National Match pistols converted to .38 wadcutter. Nothing new here, we have only re-discovered the wheel and learned how to build fire...

[Char-Gar]

My mentor, LTC Ellis Lea (USA, Ret.) was former XO of the Army Shooting Team and a contemporary of Joe Benner. He coached the USA shooting team at the 40th World Championships, and later was a firearms instructor with the Office of Public Safety for USAID, which is where I met him. He and Homer Culver figured all this out in the 1960s when trying to obtain uniform results with .38 Super National Match pistols converted to .38 wadcutter. Nothing new here, we have only re-discovered the wheel and learned how to build fire...

Yes, nothing new at all. This is all stuff I have known for well over 50 years. At times, if amazes me how much of what was once common knowledge, now seems like new and/or esoteric stuff. I attribute this to a generation of reloaders and shooters that were suckled on the internet. On the other hand, I learned most of what I know from men who kept the road hot from South Texas to Camp Perry before WWII. Knowledge and experience was passed down from one generation to the next. That is not the case anymore, and much knowledge seems to have evaporated in the digital universe.