Handloading for a 1916 Spanish Mauser 7x57?

[SquidBilly]

This rifle is not a 7.62 conversion, it is 7mm Mauser.

The rifle is in pretty good shape, the bore and chamber look great for the age. Bolt has about 1/4" knob play, but it should be ok.

I'd like to load 120-140gr Barnes TTSX or Cast and am wondering if I'll be safe staying at starting load pressures or should I reduce my loads even further? I'd really like to use this rifle as a woods and camping rifle and not as a collectable target rifle if possible.


Any insight appreciated.

[trooperdan]

Did you get this recently from Old Western Scrounger? I'd suspect there is excess headspace in this one that will lead to short brass life at least unless you take some precautions. They usually have long throats so loading the boolit long enough to engage the throat is usually not going to work. I have several of these and I rented a set of headspace gages from Reamer Rentals for $25. I found 3 of 4 had from .002-.004 clearance over the NO GO gage, not dangerous but not conducive to long brass life if you full length size every time.
My plan, and it might be all wet but this is what I am planning. I expanded the neck using a .30-06 die then used the 7x57 sizer to partially size the neck until the bolt closed with some difficulty. This will only work if your chamber is large enough to accept fired brass from a tighter chamber obviously. This should keep the loaded cartridge against the bolt face when fired so when the case expands it moves the shoulder forward instead of blowing the case head rearward, leading to case separations. I plan my initial load to be 9 grains of Unique with RCBS 145 gr boolits. I plan to keep all loads under 1800 fps using only proper boolits, no j-words.

[runfiverun]

I seen pics of the OWS guns.
they look to be scraping the bottom of the barrel [literally] with them.
I'd be more inclined to be running a 175gr cup and core at 22-2300 fps or so.

[CHeatermk3]

Trooperdan, what you're proposing is basically to form a secondary shoulder in the neck--that sounds like it ought to work well to keep the case head up against the bolt face--then just neck size and keep a lot of cases specific to each rifle?
I'd be trying it with one case in each gun first.
Don't think you will get there in one firing unless you go with jacketed as R5R suggests above.

[SquidBilly]

The rifle is an old Samco stock liquidation piece that I bought from Robertson Trading in Tennessee. It's one of the nicer versions I've seen, yet they all seem to be beat up pretty bad. Bolt play is there when locked on safe, but the lockup and rearward movement of the bolt seems fairly tight when engaged, considering what it is.

[racepres]

One 1916 that I have is an old Bannermans Import.. so Probably actually a '93 long rifle to start with. Anyway, the Throat is not only Long, but the Chamber is "generous", especially the Neck.
I reform 30-06 brass for this one, preferably Military, hoping for a Thick neck portion. After the initial fireforming using a secondary shoulder, I only partially neck size with a 7mm-08 die.
[No chance of pushing the shoulder back using the -08 die and the tiny Lee Press, unless you purposely Gorilla the Handle...
I have mostly shot as-cast Boolits in that one, using Unique for powder. Tho I have run some heavy weight J-Words thru it early on to try to Smooth the barrel some. It was...Poor inside.

[SquidBilly]

Other than the long/worn throat and strange chamber issue, are these rifles still capable of standard 7mm Mauser load pressures?

[racepres]

Other than the long/worn throat and strange chamber issue, are these rifles still capable of standard 7mm Mauser load pressures?


Good Question!!!
IDK...Never Proof Tested one...ain't gonna with mine.
I use Standard reloading data from the [either] Lyman book. And cast Boolits...so no Pressure problems for me...

[runfiverun]

45-K would be all I'd be willing to go.
before I got too wrapped up in cast I'd be doing a pound slug.
I also wouldn't be surprised if I seen a diameter of .290+/- in there somewhere.

[gnoahhh]

Spanish 1916's are about the worst of any Mauser to mess with, IMO. I would certainly check headspace before firing anything in one. A buddy bought one against my recommendation and we found it would close on a field gauge, and after stacking shim discs on the field gauge we determined it had about .030" excess headspace! Needless to say we stopped right there as it wasn't worth putting any money into to correct it.

The secondary shoulder trick is all well and good, but excess headspace is excess headspace in any event. There's just that much more of the brass case web hanging out in mid-air, plus with the tapered case further back in the chamber there's more air space around it leading to even more expansion than the undoubtedly generous 1916 chamber will encourage to begin with.

Remember those things were made from lesser steel, ill fitted from day one, and used hard by god knows how many semi-literate Spanish peasant recruits- and then mixed and matched by more semi-literate workers in Spanish gov't warehouses before being foisted on a cheap gun-hungry American market.

[racepres]

Lots of debate about the Spanish 1916...much conjecture...very little Fact.
Having rebarrelled one due to Other problems..makes me wonder how one could conclude that the case is hanging out in space more than any other mauser...about .1 is room for the extractor...
Unless someone has unscrewed the barrel...I don't see how this changed!
Excess headspace that is built in by the Reaming process??? reload like any other wildcat...
But..if yer Skeert...just don't fool with it...

[trooperdan]

Squidbilly, the ones OWS is selling all came from the SAMCO bankruptcy sale so they are brothers or cousins at least. I'm going to go easy with mine and stay with cast boolits in the velocity range they do best, around 1600-1700 fps and watch carefully for incipient case separations. Keep in mind these rifles history and age, most are nearly 100 years old!

[Tackleberry41]

I bought a 1916 that has been converted to 308. I got the same warnings, its junk. I went with min 308 data, which is usually close to 45k psi, not had any issues.

One would imagine if the chamber was 'burned out' creating excess headspace, the throat will be wasted and no accuracy. If it was lug set back, it will be really hard to open the bolt when fired. All you can do is try it, see how it shoots. Cast loads are generally way under the pressure limit.

[runfiverun]

'the load'
13grs of red-dot is at the 45-K limit.
many of the faster powder loads crowd that area.

[Larry Gibson]

SquidBilly

Not sure why you want to stay with the Barnes TTSX(?) 120 - 140 gr bullets. I've found the milsurp Mausers with the .287+ groove diameters most often shoot more accurately with softer cup/core jacketed bullets, especially flat based with long bearing surfaces. The "oversize" bores are not really out of speck as they are of European spec which is .286 - .288 for the 7mm. It is the British and American spec which is smaller at .284. Technically we can say the milsurp bores are out of spec for American .284 bullets though.


If you want to stay within the SAAMI MAP (Maximum Average Pressure) of 46,000 CUP then there are several jacketed loads I use which I have pressure tested in my M95 Chilean Mauser. It has a .287 groove diameter barrel 22" long.

In Winchester 7x57 cases with WLR primers the Hornady 175 RN over 48 gr of H4831 runs right at 2300 fps at just under the SAAMI MAP. It is an excellent and very accurate load. It also duplicates the original milsurp 172 gr RN load.

The Hornady 154 SP over 50 gr H4831SC runs 2450 fps at the SAAMI MAP with excellent accuracy.

The Hornady 139 SP over 41 gr of Varget runs 2710 fps at the SAAMI MAP.

I use Hornady's because they give excellent terminal performance at these lower velocities. Similar Speer and Sierra cup/core bullets will also give excellent results. Many 7mm bullet are now made for the much higher 7mm magnum level velocities and do not give the best terminal performance.

With cast bullets I prefer the medium to heavy weights over medium burning powders such as 3031 and 4895 with Dacron fillers. My favorite mould for the milsurp 7x57s (the original RCBS 28-168-FN) has not been available for years and is scarcer than hens teeth. I also use the lighter Lyman 287448. I have begun a thread over on goodsteelforums.com of my trials so far testing some PC'd 7mm bullets rjathon sent me. I will continue testing them and posting there. I also will, in that thread as testing is completed, post some results with non PC'd 28-168-FNs and the 287448s. I will be posting some measured pressures of the loads also.

I would suggest, if you are going to buy a mould, you check out the NOE 7mm moulds. Some are made to cast the medium and heavier weights to fit milsurp groove diameters. Beside that they are excellent moulds.

Larry Gibson

[scooterdavr56]

Squidbilly, the ones OWS is selling all came from the SAMCO bankruptcy sale so they are brothers or cousins at least. I'm going to go easy with mine and stay with cast boolits in the velocity range they do best, around 1600-1700 fps and watch carefully for incipient case separations. Keep in mind these rifles history and age, most are nearly 100 years old!
Hey trooperdan,
I bought one of the OWS/SAMCO 7x57 rifles too. I'll probably mirror your thoughts on this. I got one with the spotter stock,cleaned the grease off,glass bedded it to fix the cracked stock,and shot some factory 140 grain bullets through it today. I got a pattern instead of a group so I'll neck size the brass and start loading some Lee 130 grain cast bullets and see how it does.

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[Geezer in NH]

Just read this post and must ask What in H is knob play never ever heard the term and being 65 years old former dealer and 07 FFL no idea what you mean

[Texas by God]

Geezer- I think he means the to and fro forward to backward slack of the bolt handie when it's uncocked. Personally I would/did rebarrel an Oveido. A 93 of German manufacture; I'd be inclined to fool with the original barrel. Just my .02!

[Geezer in NH]

Then what it means is nothing. The correct HS measurement the bolt is STRIPPED no guts no extractor with the HS gauge in chamber. Play when bolt assembled means nothing HS Gauge or empty or whatever in the chamber.

[Texas by God]

You are correct Geezer- that's how I was taught.

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[Walks]

I guess I'm luckier than the rest of you. I bought one 40yrs ago, had a misnumbered '93 bolt in a '95 action. Headspace was perfect. The front of the action was beautifully ground/polished off so I have no idea who made it, but it had a OBERNDORFF triggerguard/floorplate that was serial numbered to the action. It was a 20' bbl carbine with a beautiful bore. 30yrs ago in a moment of weakness I converted it to scout rifle configuration with a FAJEN stock & a BURRIS scout scope. Use a minimum load of IMR3031 with Sierra 170gr RN for pig hunting & a LYMAN #287405 cast of linotype with UNIQUE for plinking. Both loads will group 3 shots under 1 1/2 inches at 100yrds from the bench if I do my part. Can't hunt with Cast/Lead bullets in Calif. jacketed only. Now we can't use any kind of lead at all for hunting. BARNES type Copper only. STUPID D****D CONDORS.