what size roundball for shotgun slugs

[Bobby Ironsights]

Hi, I've been thinking about loading up some roundballs for shotgun "slugs". Roundballs don't require spin to stabilize, and I should be able to use a star crimp. (I hope). I'm not interested in hunting with these, so "performance" isn't an issue, I'd just like to get to use my shotgun more.

Has anyone tried this? What size roundball do you use?

Thanks
Bobby.

[jh45gun]

.690 is the round ball mould I bought from Lee after a friend sent me some to try. They fit in a wad well and with the limited few I made up with the ones he sent me they appeared to work well. I did not shoot on paper I shot at a stump in a crick to see where the balls would hit and at 20 yards they were shooting high but right on windage wise so with some learning where to hold they should work fine. I am going to cast some up tomorrow. I used a star crimp and they worked fine though now that I have a roll crimper I plan to use that for my roundball loads. The shotguns I am shooting these out of have a cylinder bore.

[longbow]

I have been playing with round balls for a while with let's say moderate success. I like the round balls because they are easy to cast and load very easily.

I have moulds of: 0.660", 0.690", 0.715" and 0.735". So far with my guns and loads I have found that 0.660" in a shotcup gives pretty reasonable accuracy to 50 yards and so does 0.735" naked (and of course cylinder bore only for this one).

I have shot 0.690" loaded in WWAA shotcups through my Browning BPS with IC choke and the petals shear. Actually I had petals shear using cylinder bore too. It is a little too big for a shotcup and too small naked but will fit through most full chokes naked if that is an issue.

I had planned on using the 0.715" naked in the Browning BPS but find my I/C choke is 0.710" so a little tight on a 0.716" (as cast) ball ~ I guess I should have miked it first! It will work in cylinder bore but will need a teflon or mylar wrap to tighten it up. In which case I might as well use the 0.735" naked as it is easier to load!

I guess so far I have to say that 0.660" in a shotcup works well and should fit through a tight choke if necessary or if loaded in a choked gun by accident. The 0.735" shoots pretty well but better never be shot through a choke of any sort. Both are giving me about 4" groups at 50 yards.

One of the fellows here loads 0.678" in shotcups and says he gets good accuracy which makes sense as they are a closer fit than my 0.660" and it isn't too shabby. Might be a little tight if shot through a full choke by accident or...

If you use a round ball that fits in a shotcup chances are that it isn't any heavier than about 1 1/4 oz. so it is easy to find equivalent weight shot loads and just substitute the ball for equal weight shot.

If you are looking for round ball specific load data Ballistic Products has pressure tested loads for 0.690" an 0.715" balls ~ neither accurate in my guns but worth a try.

Longbow

[DMC]

I've had good results with .690" in a WAA12, better with a .690" in a 12S3.

Just yesterday I had what I consider unusual results with a B&B load. I play with this type quite a bit. Loaded up .575" roundball on top of three 00 Buckshot pellets. WT12 wad with petals cut off. Lousy crimps, junk loads, just for fun. Shot a box full of them at paper plates, from 10 to 40 yards. The Ball was within 1" of POA on 23 of those shots. The other 2 shots I pulled. That's better than some of my serious loads. The Buckshot, well, that sprayed.

DC

[longbow]

Ballistic Products list some loads for 0.690" ball in BPI shotcups but I haven't tried those or the Federal 12S1. From what I understand the Federal is a tougher wad than the WWAA and may have thinner petals.

So far I have had inconsistent results with the 0.690" in WWAA wads with lots of sheared petals but that's with my guns and limited load development. I will try some other shotcups before writing it off but all in all for cylinder bore I am liking the 0.735" RB on top of a gas seal and card wads.

Something I would like to try as well is something like Dixie's Tri-ball loads with with 3 .60 cal. balls. James reports pretty good groups through a choked gun and that has to be a devastating load for moderate ranges.

Too much to do and too little time!

Longbow

[Dixie Slugs]

OK...Of course Dixie would like to sell ammo, but most reloaders don't buy factory made ammo.
So.....Let's talk about multi ball loads....overlooked most of the time. The .600" round ball is excellent when used in a sturdy plastic (for steel shot)wad (at least .035" petal thickness).
Use buffer around the balls and start with around 28 grs of Blue Dot. Best choke is a .675"......in a straight wall 12 3" hull...Cheddite and Fiocchi are best!
Regards.James

[missionary5155]

Hi, I've been thinking about loading up some roundballs for shotgun "slugs". Roundballs don't require spin to stabilize, and I should be able to use a star crimp. (I hope). I'm not interested in hunting with these, so "performance" isn't an issue, I'd just like to get to use my shotgun more.

Has anyone tried this? What size roundball do you use?

Thanks
Bobby.

:-D Hey good morning...
First are you looking for real accuracy or up close pennetraction ? My quest began 20 years ago with a 25 foot hungry crock out on an Amazon tributary. The target was going to be only 5 feet away so accuracy did not matter. Pentrating neck armor was the real fact and that was why punpkin balls were resurrected. Slugs fail miserably getting through tough stuff.
I did extend my research into accuracy as I always wanted a double rifle... even 12 bore looked great. I found accuracy is dependent on a good snug fit hopefully down the whole barrel... but especially that last 3 inches... the choke. I settled on 3 thousands compresion ... but up to 5 thousands.... Round ballls do not compress as a slug will as they squeeze through the choke or rifling. So you need to satrt be finding the real diameter of the tightest constriction of your barrel or barrels. Next subtract the thickness of your wad that will surround your ball. Use a plastic wad that has thick pettals as these petals will need to compress as they pass through your choke. So subtract petal thickness twice from your bore diameter...twice because there are two sides sliding out that bore. When you mike your petals DO NOT squeeze real hard... Just a firm measurement. So again subtract 2X petal thickness. Now you have the perfect ball size but with no crompression.... Here is where I decided 3 thousands was my base figure to be added to that Perfect Fit Ball. Thick barrels could take more... thinner doubbles ??? So go with 3 on a double and up to 5 on a thick wall Mossberg..... you can later begin to experiment with tighter fit using Teflon tapewrapped around the ball before seatting it in the shot cup. So now you can order a mold. Look for a cheap used one... Dixies can still be found for around $5... but they still make them at all possible diameters.
If you decide to not use a plastic wad you are going to need to think about bullet lube... or whatever type wadding. I recommend the plastic shot cups. They seal the bore on the gas end. They protect your ball going down the barrel. They fall away in flight. They are just hard to beat. Big companies spent millions making round ball shooting very easy.
Casting the ball is no big deal... If you are going to use pure lead it will shrink some on coolling--- #2 mix will stay about correct... linetype tends to stay a larger diameter. Another reason I chose 3 thousands... I used lyntype water dropped.. I needed absolute penetration. I will not plague you here with my .685 ball bearing experiments. You do not need much expantion with a 69 caliber hole... but pure lead will expand at less 1000fps. #2 mix will expandat about 1000 fps. Lyntype will not expand hardly and is my all purpose shoot anything load. It will penetrate any skull in North America. I have not shot any bone yet it did not penetrate and crush at point of impact. 6 cylinder iron car blocks 1960´s vintage) will not stop Linetype... I have penetrated 1/2 steel plates...
Powder load... start with the minimum field load... you round ball will wiegh about 1 ounce.... I experiment by adding 1/2 grain to my powder charge. I regularly dump the shot out of a certain brand of cheap dove loads and plunk in my round ball... crimp and off I go... but you must check those pettal thicknesses..... you can bulg a choke....
If you want to go the black powder route start at 85 grains.. you may have to shorten your wad to get it to fit... I have been up to 135 grains of FFg and recoil was just plain awfull.... I am only a smaller type feller.
So once you fire off those first rounds you will get a feel for all this. Remember shotgun barrels are thinner than all rifles. You can burst a barrel... Purchase the HOTTEST factory round your weapon is rated for and fire that for a comparrison round. Measure the brass cup expansion... look at the primer condition after firing. Remember the recoil.... NEVER EXCEED THESE INDICATORS. If you need more power the .50 Caliber Browning M-2 round is waiting your arrival.
Have fun... you are about to find out why thousands of elephants and hippos and rhinos are not impossible to harvest. And 12 Bore was considered the minimum caliber. :Fire:

[missionary5155]

[QUOTE=missionary5155;364344]:-D Hey good morning...

[longbow]

Missionary5155:

A good read!

Fort some reason I cannot explain I just plain like round balls. Especially big'uns like 12 ga.

I have been playing with round balls with some success for many years. They aren't wonderfully accurate in most of the loads I have tried but they are easy to load and fun to shoot. I guess it all depends on what your goals are. Yours were pretty obvious!

I always figured, like you, that most slugs (at least Foster style) weren't the best for penetration so a round ball definitely beats the Foster there. What I really would like to try is a bore size round ball and a rifled choke tube at about 1:100. That would be a modern equivalent to the Old Paradox guns.

I am thinking the slow twist would not strip and a bore size 12 ga. ball is a pretty devastating projectile. Might be a little tough to work out for a side by though.

So far my 0.660" RB in a shotcup and 0.735" RB naked are showing pretty good results from smoothbore to 50 yards and the rifling would certainly extend that range with better accuracy.

A big 'ol round ball scooting along with a slow twist should be pretty good to 100 yards.

Longbow

[missionary5155]

Missionary5155:

A good read!

Fort some reason I cannot explain I just plain like round balls. Especially big'uns like 12 ga.

I have been playing with round balls with some success for many years. They aren't wonderfully accurate in most of the loads I have tried but they are easy to load and fun to shoot. I guess it all depends on what your goals are. Yours were pretty obvious!

I always figured, like you, that most slugs (at least Foster style) weren't the best for penetration so a round ball definitely beats the Foster there. What I really would like to try is a bore size round ball and a rifled choke tube at about 1:100. That would be a modern equivalent to the Old Paradox guns.

I am thinking the slow twist would not strip and a bore size 12 ga. ball is a pretty devastating projectile. Might be a little tough to work out for a side by though.

So far my 0.660" RB in a shotcup and 0.735" RB naked are showing pretty good results from smoothbore to 50 yards and the rifling would certainly extend that range with better accuracy.

A big 'ol round ball scooting along with a slow twist should be pretty good to 100 yards.

Longbow
Good morning... That slow twist would be fun to play with ! I have shot my Mossburg rifled barrel with RB for awhile and that quicker twist seems to work all right.... But I also frontstuff and those slow twist barrels can really launch out the BIG round ones ! For swamp hunting I use a water dropped linetype ball in my double... I have never been concered it would not get through any brush and exit the target. I am waiting the chance to dispact a horse or cow. So far I have not seen a bone that can stop my .685 Hard Linetype ball moving at 1350fps... Cannot find any elephants....:-D

[longbow]

I have not tried the 0.735" round ball in a rifled barrel yet but will. I live in an area where there are no shotgun only restrictions so for the most part people hunt with rifles and some carry "Defender" type short shotguns for bear defense when camping or bowhunting but they are almost all smoothbore.

All that is to say that rifled shotguns are not at all common here and for that matter neither is slug shooting.

I do have a friend who picked up a rifled pump gun a few months ago and I have been planning to load up some bore size round balls to try in it. I have been thinking that they will not like the fast sabot twist rifling and may strip ~ at least if they are "hot" slug loads. Maybe if I keep them to typical shot velocities of 1200 FPS or so they would be okay. Unfortunately I have been so busy I have not had time yet. Hopefully later this summer.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Longbow

[missionary5155]

Good morning Longbow What lube are you planning to use ? So far all the projectiles I have launched have been seated in shot wads....:)

[longbow]

I guess we are kind of hijacking the thread but then again it is all about shotguns and round balls.

So far I have not used a lube for the naked balls (sounds rude don't it?) or slugs. Mostly the round balls I have used are under bore size so not a problem and the 0.660" have been in a shotcup. The 0.735" RB's and some bore size slugs I have shot have not shown a tendency to lead but again, that is in a smootbore.

I will be trying out the 0.735" RB's in my friend's rifled gun so will likely dip lube them as I find Lee Liquid Alox gets sticky/gummy. I have added some hard wax to LLA and dip lube other boolits in it successfully so am thinking at the relatively low shotgun velocities it should be fine. I may also lube the under ball card wad ~ I don't want to be leading up his gun.

Longbow

[missionary5155]

Thanks Longbow... Sounds like another great way to spend some warm days. The dip lube should work as the rifled barrels are not that long and the twist is not real fast... Thanks :)

[longbow]

Well, I finally got to shoot!

I loaded up a few 0.735" RB's. The load was:

- 0.735" RB ACWW @ approx. 583 grs.
- LLA lube with some paraffin added
- 2 X 1/2" fiber wads
- 1 x 0.125" nitro card wad
- gas seal cut off WWAA Red wads
- 35.5 grs. Blue Dot (Lee dipper)
- Fiocchi low base hull
- WW 209 primer
- gun: Remington 870 with 1:38 twist; open sights

OUCH! I wound up putting a sand bag between the buttstock and my shoulder.

The first 2 groups I shot were 4 out of 5 shots in 1" x 2" and 1 1/2" x 1 1/4" each with one flier about 2" from the group. The last group was a little more spread out.

Better accuracy than I expected with such a fast twist. I did recover one ball and it showed good engraving.

No barrel leading.

The fliers are more than likely pilot error as I was getting a little punchy. I had fired 30 rounds of hot .44 mag from my Marlin 1894 and it is so light it beats me up on the bench. Then I fired 15 rounds of 12 ga. RB then 10 rounds of 680 gr. 12 ga slugs all from the bench. The sand bag definitely took the bite out of recoil but did make aiming a little awkward.

I have to say that I like that RB load! easy to cast, easy to load and wow in general. All I need is a good round ball twist barrel or choke to shoot it through. It does alright in the smoothbore to 50 yards anyway but a proper rifling twist would make it useful to 100 yards or more.

I didn't do enough shooting to determine longer range accuracy or if leading over a long stretch of shooting would be a problem but I think LLA and maybe a greased wad behind the ball would solve any leading problem.

If I can keep this borrowed gun a little longer I may try it out for 100 yard accuracy with the RB.

I'll keep you posted.

Longbow

[missionary5155]

Hi there Longbow... I played a little with Bluedot sometime back... I do not remember how much I go to but that sounds about the same. Flat will stomp anything it smacks !
I would definately try some out that rifled barrel. I got out to 80 yards with my Mossberg rifled barrel and I was well pleased with 3 inch groups...
If that all gets boring start up with Blackpowder.... I took it to 135 grains (modified wads and .685 ball)... and decided the recoil was all my 155 pounds needed. But it does get exciting.

[longbow]

missionary5155:

I used the lightest load listed by Precision Bullet for their once available "Piledriver" shotgun slug which was basically a Keith style full bore solid at 610 grs., They used up to 44 grs. of Blue Dot under that and I shudder at the thought!

The 36 gr. load under a round ball of about 575/580 grs was downright unpleasant off the bench and I outweigh you by a large amount!

I used 31.5 grs of Blue Dot under a 685 gr. TC slug and it was somewhat milder than the RB load which surprised me.

I will try to hang onto the borrowed gun long enough to load some more RB's for it and try out 100 yard groups. From what I saw at 50 I bet it stays under 4" at 100 and again that is with iron sights and old eyes (and now a bruised shoulder).

I did recover one RB and it took the rifling well. I was a little skeptical as I had planned on using a lighter load due to fast rifling twist. I doubt I will see MOA accuracy by me or the gun/load but 4" at 100 yards would tickle me plenty. I wouldn't even be upset with consistent 6" groups.

I think a dedicated cylinder bore 12 ga. slug gun in side by (with hammers or course) would be a bunch of fun with these big 'ol RB's. With BP then there is the flame and smoke too ~ even better!

Good chattin with ya.

Longbow

[KCSO]

I have recovered round balls from deer and bison and for me they work just as well as a slug. I use a 690 ball cenntered in a 12 Ga. wad and they even shoot good from the full choke barrel on my Husky. Accuracy at 75 yards is under 4" groups with both barrels printing together. I cast these from wheel weights and they flatten out to oner 1" when shot inot a buffalo. I have never found anything but a hole on deer, a BIG hole on the far side leaking body parts.

[wonderwolf]

Should the round ball and wad slip freely through the choke ( I use some unknown alloy for casting my slugs with so I'm not sure if they are going to bump up or not as they are much softer than Wheel weights)? I have some Round ball case up and have shot cups and fiber wads I could use, I've thought about just using the fiber wads as I won't be shooting further than 50 yards for just black powder plinking fun.

From what I've read 80-100gr+ of black powder ffg will work for a 12 gauge? I have a SXS I would like to load slugs for. Its a shame I sold off my SXS Damascus coach gun before I got into gun smithing hard core. Would have been able to fix the broken trigger and use it with these BP slug loads :( :Fire:

[missionary5155]

Hello Wonderwolf
The Ball/wad sleeve need some resistence to be kept on a straight course. Otherwise it will "rattle" down the barrel and bounce of at some unknown angle. The last 3 inches or so are very important. This is what we call the choke area. If you are usuing a cylinder bore barrel there is a somewhat constant diameter... if not this choke area is the key diameter you need to measure. Especially if you are looking to fire round ball out a thin wall barrel or one with screw in chokes. A round ball does not "collapse" as it passes through a choke like a Forster slug. A pure lead ball will give some but harder alloys just do not. You can split the choke area of a thin wall double or damage a screw in choke/barrel also by applying to much pressure as the ball/plastic wad passes through the constriction area.
I found through my experiments that my desired constriction was .003 to .005 (thousanths) I did not test to any barrel destruction... But tighter fitting balls did not fly any straighter. So measure your choke area if there is one or the real cylinder diameter. On a double remember the two barrels are not the same even if they say they are.. MEASURE. Measure the thickness of the wad pettals... There are thickness variations in brands and types. Subtract the wad thickness (2x) from the least barrel diameter. Now add 3-5 thou and there is your ball diameter. If you have a ball mold you can increase ball diameter by wrapping it in layers of teflon or masking tape. Around the circumference that rides the bore area is all you need. Dixie has ball sizes for all aplications.
I also rod push a ball/shotcup unit down the barrel from the breach to check my math. If you cannot push it through with heavy hand pushing force then you are to tight. Do not hammer it through the choke!!!!!
Start with a 1 ounce shot load and work up.... Retreive your fired shot cups to "READ" the real compression in the shot cup petals. You will learn alot from those pieces of plastic. Adjust as needed... work up to Magnum loads if you want more thump.
Get yourself a 6 inch oak post and test penetration... start with a store bought slug... then fire one of your round ball loads... you will be amazed.
Go slow... Just remeber a shotgun barrel is alot thinner than any rifle barel. I have fired round ball out my FOX B 12 guage.. Mossburg pump cylinder barrel... barrels with screw in chokes and standard chokes... all will shoot safely and much better with round ball and a little work. My FOX B is my dedicated bear gun. Out to 70 yards I would tackle any critter on this world with my round ball magnum loads. 1600 fps is all my 155 frame can handle but I would give it a go.
I hope this gets you started down the way....

[missionary5155]

From what I've read 80-100gr+ of black powder ffg will work for a 12 gauge? I have a SXS I would like to load slugs for. ( :Fire:[/QUOTE]

I have a copy of an old Ideal catalog that states 85 grains FF was a common round ball load. That was where I started with FF / round ball loads. Using plastic shot cups (modified) I worked up to 135 grains FF in 5 grain increments. Those 135 loads were down right painfull but very authoratative. The smokescreen is impressive ! I wiped the barrel between shots. :-D

[longbow]

So far I have not gotten very good accuracy with an undersize ball that will fit through a choke.

Maybe I should correct that and say a naked ball that is undersized for the choke.

I used to load 0.690" RB's in a Pedersoli double barreled 12 ga. cap lock shotgun with modified and full chokes. The 0.690" ball would just fit through the full choke. I never did get any kind of decent accuracy that way (naked ball on card and fiber wads). I also loaded it over 4 drams (about 110 grs.) of BP in an old single shot break action shotgun. Wasn't real accurate but fun to shoot especially since I had a muzzle brake and screw in choke system on it (like a Cutts compensator) ~ BIG ball of fire when shot!

I have tried 0.690" in various shotcups in both cylinder bore and my Browning BPS improved cylinder slug barrel but find it too small naked and too tight in a shotcup (shears petals).

What I have found that works for me anyway is a 0.660" ball in a shotcup both through cylinder bore and my IC slug barrel and 0.735" RB through cylinder bore. Both giving about 4" at 50 yards.

I had also planned on using a naked 0.715" ball in the IC slug barrel but after buying the mould I miked the choke (yes I should have done this first) and find my choke is 0.711" and the ball casts at 0.716". My intent was to have a naked ball that was a thou or so over the choke diameter so it would "funnel" through and swage very slighty taking any spin off it in the choke. Oops! I am not about to try swaging 0.005" off a hard lead ball in my choke. I may hone out the choke a few though though.

One of the fellas here says he gets good accuracy with 0.678" RB in a shotcup. It would be a better fit than my 0.660" RB and a little heavier. In retrospect it would have been a better choice than 0.715". If you search this forum you should find his post.

The short answer for Wonderwolf is to read back in missionary5155's post. He says he settled on 0.003" over bore size with a plastic wad. Now if you shoot through a choke, that 0.003" should apply to the tightest choke restriction.

I think that is good advice. I can't advise on the bumping up bit though. I suspect that if using a cushion leg shotcup it would not be a problem but I cast hard balls so not an issue.

I suggest the 0.660" or 0.678" in a plastic shotcup if shooting through anything tighter than improved cylinder choke. If you are shooting through cylinder bore then bore size to a little over should be fine. I have been shooting 0.735" RB in a cylinder bore so 0.005" to 0.006" over but it is being swaged in the forcing cone.

Anyway, those are my results.

Longbow

PS: I guess I should apologize to Bobby Ironsights for hijacking his thread here ~ sorry!

[missionary5155]

Wonderwolf I have an old Ideal cataloge that states with round ball 85FF was the normal. I started there and at 5 grain additons took FF up to 135 grains with round ball. You have to modify the shot cups to do so... But it gets exciting. One again use only in a good heavy barrel.
I have not played with Bare round balls.... I started with the shot cups and all my molds are that size.

[missionary5155]

I have recovered round balls from deer and bison .... I cast these from wheel weights and they flatten out to oner 1" when shot inot a buffalo.

KCSO What penetration distance have you seen in BuF with 12 guage RB? Have you hit any shoulder or fore leg bones ?
I have never recovered a round ball after plowing through Deer ... Even my .58 frontstuffer completely penetrates and leaves large leaking holes.