Springer vs. Gas Cylinder Break BBL.

[35 shooter]

I'm interested in a pellet rifle for general shooting fun, but also for some serious small hunting from time to time.

I understand the new gas piston guns are a bit smoother shooting and can be left cocked for quite a bit of time while shooting and hunting without harming the cylinder since it's not just spring operated.

I also understand you can wear out the spring on a springer by leaving it cocked for extended periods...but....
for normal shooting that wouldn't be much of a problem.

I guess my question to folks who are more experienced in all of this than me is,
if your just hunting with a springer a few times a year, does it really wear it out quickly to cock it and maybe shoot a squirrel an hour later?

Seems the gas piston guns are probably best for hunting, but then again, it seems the springer in the same model as the gas gun tends to shoot faster speeds.

I know if you made a habit of cocking a springer and shooting it an hour or two later all year long would wear the spring out in short order, but will it really wear them out on just occasional hunts a year to do this?

[clodhopper]

Material for springs has improved a lot over the last couple of decades. What material a given manufacture use in their guns seems to be a secret.
I don't know how much spring tension is lost in a few hours, but leaving it cocked for a year is very noticeable.
I have never noticed ill effects hunting with a spring air rifle loosing power, but never gave it a good test.

[54bore]

I don't know how much spring tension is lost in a few hours, but leaving it cocked for a year is very noticeable.
I have never noticed ill effects hunting with a spring air rifle loosing power, but never gave it a good test.

This is what made my decision to go with a Nitro/Gas piston, everything i read claimed if they were gonna fail they will do it when the rifle is brand new, and it will happen VERY QUICKLY, otherwise they will Go n Go, i read where they claim you can cock a Nitro/Gas gun and leave it however long you choose? I have no idea how much Validity there is to this? I would never leave either of my Air Rifles cocked, just seems like a WRONG thing to do. The same article i read was sorta down on the Springers, weak springs over time/use, and broken springs. Pretty sure it was Pyramid air where i read this? Maybe i can find it again

[Multigunner]

If civilization fell one might be able to make a replacement coil spring, though manufacture of reliable coil springs was more art than science for most of the planet till well after WW2.
Recharging a nitrogen piston cylinder requires some higher level of technology.

But that's basically academic. If a spring breaks you buy one and if its a really strong spring its best you have it installed by an experienced air gun smith who has the proper tools.
If a gas piston fails you pay to have it replaced or repaired. Nothing last forever.

I expect most nitro piston rifles could be converted to use a spring instead if absolutely necessary.

I haven't seen any under lever nitro piston rifle yet, I suppose someone makes them some where.

[35 shooter]

Okay, thanks for the replies.

Multigunner, Hatsun makes an underlever gas piston rifle and i believe i saw a couple other brands over on the pyramid air site. Hatsan calls theirs a vortex piston, but they're all just gas pistons regardless of the name the maker gives it such as vortex, nitro, etc.

Guys, im not talking about cocking a springer and leaving it cocked all day or all year.
What i was after is how quickly would it wear down a springer if it was cocked for an hour or two between shots, such as on a still hunt for squirrels just a few hunting trips a year.

If they haven't been hunted much, you could probably get away with cocking the gun once you spot one, but if they're spooky, that movement and noise might cost you a shot.

From the do it yourself videos i've seen, the springers certainly look easier to work on than a gas piston version.
It does look like the gas pistons are the best way to go for leaving it cocked in the woods for hunting.

I may wind up getting one of each in the same model just to test it.

[35 shooter]

Material for springs has improved a lot over the last couple of decades. What material a given manufacture use in their guns seems to be a secret.
I don't know how much spring tension is lost in a few hours, but leaving it cocked for a year is very noticeable.
I have never noticed ill effects hunting with a spring air rifle loosing power, but never gave it a good test.

Thanks clodhopper,

I may give a springer a try. I would think if it's a well made gun, it would last a long time the way i'm talking about hunting with it.
Be interesting to test one out anyway.

[Multigunner]

"Multigunner, Hatsun makes an underlever gas piston rifle "

I looked it up on Pyramid Air and found that its specifications and customer reviews did not compare favorably to the much cheaper Browning Leverage which I've had my eye on recently.

Of the two I'd definitely go with the Browning, as mentioned its much cheaper and has a much higher stated maximum velocity. It also has fewer complaints and a nicer stock. Reviews on other sites are also very good.

At the stated max velocity figures it could lose some power over years of hard use and still out perform the Hatsan.

[MT Chambers]

Either way a lot is happening after you squeeze off the shot, the piston is springing forward either by spring power or compressed air, that is why it takes a lot of proper practice to shoot them well. Don't get wrapped up in numbers ie: inflated velocity/energy...the cheaper outfits pad those figures a lot using alloy pellets. In the short turn you will shoot a PCP more accurately.....cheap springers are hard to shoot well with usually poor triggers.

[35 shooter]

I'll check the Browning out later tonight. I did see it the other day, but didn't read the reviews.
I do like the idea fo the "fixed bbl." on the underlevers. Should be a bit more accurate for scope use than a break bbl.

Lol, i'm starting to feel a bit like a kid again researching all these air rifles.

[35 shooter]

I could easily see a pcp gun in the future. I almost ordered a Benjamin Discovery in 22 as a intro into that very thing.
The price is certainly right on that one as it comes with a pump, but for now at least, i want to stick to a good break or underlever to start with.

The pcp guns would certainly be great hunting rifles and i AM interested in them.

[psweigle]

my son has been using a springer for years. it still shoots very accurate.

[Greg S]

Beeman imported one called the dual magnum in 22 Cal. Itmwas a limited run of alittle less than 200 units. Beeman was actually the importer and they were manufactured b Theobin (sp) . The cocking system was a ratchet type design and you could either shoot half cocked or full. They were well put together and got cost prohibitive to shoot. If I was looking for a gas ram or a hunting springer, I'd look for a Beeman RX1 Springer or its gas ram mate the RX2 in 22. For a dual roll predominately plinker/hunter, the RX9 in 177 is nice. If you really want accuracy, try a side cocking springer.

The pre-charged pnuematic (air tank rifles) are nice but there is alot of refilling paraphinalia $$$ to go along with them. I got into them early and ended up with both a compressor and a cf tank. They are like a 20 round bolt action 22. You can get more shots off than 20 but that is where the usual sweet spot is for the on board regulator. After that velocity starts to drop off and so does the trajectory.

[35 shooter]

GreG S,

Those rx1 and 2 Beeman rifles sound great, but may be a bit more than i want to put into this to start with.
Bet they're super accurate though.

On the other hand, the Umarex Octane gas piston 22 cal. @ a little over $200.00 and a 3 yr. warranty is starting to look good to me.
Tons of good reviews on a rifle in that price range.
Quite and easy to shoot according what i've read on it so far.

[Silverboolit]

One thing a lot of people do not realize is that a big magnum airgun is just that, BIG. Either the gas ram, or spring, can be a handful to both cock and hold. I would suggest that you actually handle a few different ones, and if possible, shoot several times. Some of the springer magnums, which can be a fine hunting rifle, can take up to 60# of cocking force. Some are long. I would not get too concerned with velocity. Accuracy will get you more fun. Check Pyramid Air for video's on many different models, they are very helpful.

[clodhopper]

I have not bought a new airgun in quite a while. All the new stuff is pretty intriguing.

Gas pistons, the bigger bore PCP, it seems like I want all the expevsive features.

Heavy projectiles 100+ grain, 750+ FPS pretty much means PCP in today's offerings.

I already have molds very similar to the air venture pellets in .30 and 9mm. Along with casting tools and lead.

I did purchase a scuba tank back when I had a job, but going the PCP way would almost require a compressor, I do not know of any dive shops nearby.

[GhostHawk]

Well I recently bought the Hatsan 135 QE Vortex.

I also have a cheap chinese Spring gun, the B3.

Now if you want a cheap spring gun Amazon still has those for sale at 55$. I bought two, and if you want to stop by I'll give you the second one, still in the box, never opened.

It has a definate "twang" to it when it goes off. You feel it recoiling first one way, then the other.
This is the only air rifle that I have ever had thow a scope clean off it when fired.

The Hatsan Vortex on the other hand is truly a magnum air rifle. Available in .177, .22, .25 and .30 caliber. Yeah, it has enough power to launch a .30 caliber pellet at respectable speeds.

And it has some stuff going on inside as well. But overall it is quieter, smoother, less hold sensitive.

This is the thing about bigger springers that most people don't seem to get. A magnum spring gun is touchy sensitive about exactly how it is held. Change your hand position an inch and you may change point of impact an inch.

The gas piston/vortex is much less touchy. Much smoother in cocking, and in firing.
As far as replacing either in a SHTF scenario, you guys left out one point. You don't have to make a gas piston from scratch. Go steal a few from tailgates of SUV's until you find one that fits and gives you the power you are looking for.

In many cases the only real difference is the spring or vortex itself with perhaps a small piece of plastic use to switch from spring to vortex or back.

If you are interested in the guts of air rifles I would recommend you watch a few of the video's this gentleman has made. He is quite knowledgeable about them in general and Hatsan in particular.
He does run Hatsan down a bit, "you never know what your going to get" which may be true. But for someone who appears to not care for them much he seems to own and have worked on a awful lot of them.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfGetm1fl6BTFtfg9E9Nmnw

I like him, he is an ex plumber, down to earth, common sense and don't be afraid to get your hands dirty.

I do think he leans more to springs where I lean more to Vortex/gas ram. You can make up your own mind.

Last, while I truly am coming to appreciate the 135 QE Vortex, it is not IMO a perfect rifle for hunting. At 9+ pounds bare it is a heavy monster. I think either the 95 or the Edge/striker would be better with reasonable speed/power and lighter weight.

Have a care what scopes you choose. Your old deer rifle scope may not last long on a springer.

Either Leapers/UTG or Hammer have good reputation for decent air rifle scopes in the 60$ price range. Hawke if you want to spend more for better quality.

[Silverboolit]

I have the Benjamin Discovery PCP that I like a lot. I do run it on CO2 over HPA because of the cost of refills. A 24 oz. CO2 bottle is not expensive to own or refill at about 4.00 at Academy. Mine is in .177 because when I got mine, there were some apparent barrel problems with the .22 cal. Light weight and easy to use.

[clodhopper]

The hatsan 30 cal vortex is interesting, but the 600 fps velocity makes me think PCP.
I have couple old Chinese springers around. saving them for gun buy back event near me.
I have a nice older Anschutz double piston spring gun, excellent trigger, excellent accuracy about 11 pounds and 600 fps. It gets some use unfriendlys.
Still think 800 Fps and a chunk of lead big enough to make raccoons give up is what I want.

[35 shooter]

The Hatsan Vortex 30 cal. @ 550 fps. is putting out 34 fpe @ the muzzle, and still has 23 fpe @ 50 yds.
That is a serious pellet "hunting" rifle for sure in a break bbl.

Definitely a rifle for the woods and fields and not back yard friendly without a "serious" backstop.
Should be pure Raccoon poison.
Wish it came in the 95 model and not just the 135.

[Forrest r]

You might consider looking at quality over $$$, you'll pay more up front but you'll have an excellent rifle to use every pull of the trigger. Spend a little time looking at rifles that sell and not only hold their value. They actually increase in value.

I bought a rws 45 .177cal decades ago. It's nothing more than the deluxe version of the rws 34. It was their limited addition anniversary model they were selling to end the sales of the model 45.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/rws4501.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/rws4501.jpg.html)

I've shot countless 1000's of pellets out of this rifle and it's still going strong. It was made in 10-1982.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/100_1166.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/100_1166.jpg.html)

Quality wood, quality sights, excellent highly accurate bbl and the t-01 adjustable trigger. In a couple of years I'll send it in to have new springs/seals put in it and then it will last me the rest of my life.

Buy quality and you will never have to worry about wearing something out along with you can use the rifle for years and easily sell it for more $$$ then you paid for it new.

Another rws pellet rifle, this is a rws 75 that was made in 1978. It was made to do head shots on flies @ 10m.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/rws75.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/rws75.jpg.html)

This one was rebuilt 10+ years ago by Mac1 and is still running strong. When the x-ring is a dot on a target that you're trying to hit @ 33+ft you have to keep up on them a little closer.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/penciltarget.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/penciltarget.jpg.html)

I have a 10m range setup in the basement and I shoot the rifles along with a 10m pistol a couple times a week. I typically fill around 1/2 of a 3# coffee can with pellets every year when I clean the trap out. These pellet guns get used.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/pellettrap_zpsb2b7ee9b.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/pellettrap_zpsb2b7ee9b.jpg.html)

The thought of a pellet gun breaking never entered my mind but then again start with a quality product and enjoy them for a decade or 2.

[35 shooter]

Those are fine looking rifles for sure Forrest r.

Okay, another question from the rookie here lol.
It seems the best type system for me since i would be hunting from time to time and would need it to be cocked and ready for an indefinite time period while hunting, would be a break bbl. gas piston, or pcp rifle.

But....can a pneumatic pump rifle like the Benjamin 392 or 397 be left pumped and ready in a hunting situation between shots without hurting the seals on it?

[Forrest r]

I have no idea why you think you need to be cocked all the time when hunting. I use that rws 45 quite a bit for hunting & will cock/load it when I see a squirrel. I've also left it cocked/loaded for hours with no issues when the shot never presented itself.

[nagantguy]

Late to the thread but don't get to caught up in the springer cocked loosing to much steam in a few hours, during our early spring late fall blue jay and starling invasion, I'm talking thousands we must live in some flyway congregation area I've left the springer cocked for days in the shed u tip I need to put it to use but against birds, squirrels and rabbits it's still up to the task inside 15 yards or so , just like with center fires and muzzle loaders raw power is a diminishing return game if noise and recoil cancel out good techniques and lots of practice, tiny little pellets kill when they are placed well, same as a 300 win mag a miss is a miss and a leg shot is a leg shot resulting in tracking and probable lost game, for garden pests that might not be a big deal, until a wood chuck goes under the garden shed to die and smells to high heavens and brings bugs and other pests! If I owned an air rifle that lost enough "juice" that it would no longer hit poa or be lethal to the small critters it's used for than it would go down the road real fast! I have various air rifles from cheaply cross and to Chinese rivers and a growing collection of bengiman Sheridans ,franklins and blue and sliver streaks and on and on, cock em, hunt little critters or bust cans and dirt close, re pack and refill as needed. I am no expert , have not used all kinds and so far can't afford a true big bore air rifle this is just my experience since 7 years old.

[Silverboolit]

35 shooter...You haven't mentioned what type of hunting you are planning on doing. If you are going small, as in rabbit and less, you don't need a big heavy rifle. The Brits are airgun crazy and do wonderful with their guns. they are limited to 12 fpe at the muzzle. YouTube is your friend with lots of hunting videos from birds to hogs to deer. PCP is fine in warm weather, however most leave something when the temps get colder.
There are so many rifles out there that looking is almost as fun as shooting them. Choose wisely, and you will have a blast!!

[35 shooter]

Silverboolit,

Squirrels and rabbits would be the main thing on the agenda for me. Your right about the research and looking part of all this, it has been a ton of fun.
I'm slowly getting the "field" narrowed down to three or four that i really like.

Forrest r and nagantguy,

Thanks for the info on leaving your springers cocked "sometimes" when hunting. Doing it occasionally when hunting without undue harm to the spring from folks experienced with them is the kind of info i've been after.

Forrest r, i would "prefer" to have it cocked and ready when hunting for the same reason i would when hunting with any other firearm...less time and movement and noise when a shot finally presents itself.
If several present themselves at once(as often happens), the first shot is ready for action.
After that, if any hang around, it would be a cock and shoot deal.

From the research i've done so far, it does seem the gas piston guns do hold up to leaving them cocked while hunting better than a springer.
I've pretty well decided on a gas piston type for hunting i think.

[Multigunner]

For multi pump, HPA or CO2 powered guns if you intend to leave the gun fully charged for hours or even days at a time I suggest you replace all the seals with duplicates made from Urethane.
When I rebuilt my 78g I used seals from Mac 1 Air Guns. These are made from Milspec 90 Durometer Urethane. I looked for reviews of the product first and found that one 78g owner after rebuilding with the Urethane seals had chrono'ed his gun then left it fully charged with CO2 for nine months then chrono'ed it again and found no loss in pressure or velocity. I expect these seals should hold up just as well for a fully pumped up rifle or a rifle on HPA.

Modern high quality springs shouldn't take a set after being carried cocked for a few hours at a time. Modern magazine springs which are a great deal lighter hold up to a magazine remaining fully loaded for months or years at a time.
Coil springs manufactured in some third world pesthole probably are no where near as durable.
One of Japan's first bolt action rifle designs based on a European design substituted a flat or V spring inside a hollow bolt knob for the coil spring in the original design simply because Asian factories of the era had not yet caught on to the techniques of mass producing reliable coil springs. The flat or V spring if broken or weakened could be replaced by any competent black smith.

[NyFirefighter357]

I've had my .177 cal. Beeman Webley Omega for about 30yrs. It's never been rebuilt has had 10's of thousands of pellets through it and still in strong and very accurate. I also have a .22 cal. RWS Diana, it came to me used but is also about the same age. I once took a red squirrel at 50yrds with my Beeman. I have also shot my buddy's new piston guns they are very loud, high speed creates sonic booms, I think your better off going larger caliber at lower speed. Beeman has been saying for a long time that the effects of breaking the sound barrier make the pellet very unstable. I've thought about having my Beeman rebuilt but I can buy a new piston rifle for what it would cost. I have also looked at the tank guns. Once again I'd go maybe .25 cal. and keep it under 1,100 fps. JMHO, Good luck, Jay

[35 shooter]

Thanks for the tip on the seals Multigunner.

NYFirefighter357,
I do want to stay sub sonic for the very reasons you mentioned, plus i want it as easy on the ears as i can get.
I've noticed in the videos that even with the "magnum" type airguns, it seems most are shooting heavy for cal. pellets in them to keep it subsonic, but still keep the fpe up.
That makes sense to me and is the way i'm leaning now. I've noticed in the 22 cal., it seems to me most are finding the best accuracy somewhere between 8 to 900 fps.

Lots of tips and good info and things to consider coming out in this thread.

[GhostHawk]

I have no problem leaving my Sheridan Blue streak cocked, loaded and pumped for an hour or two.

If it is not holding air then it is time to rebuild/replace seals or valves. You can still find Blue streaks in decent working condition for 150 to 200$ price range on gunbroker, etc.

I bought a spare 3 years ago, got it for 150$ and was tickled pink to get it. It was a decade newer than my mid 70's ol blue. But in very good condition, with no issues.

That being said when I did take ol blue away from the house I often cocked/loaded it. Gave it 2 pumps. Then if I saw rabbit/squirrel I could easily add one more pump and let fly.

But if it was just a bird I'd shoot with just the 2 pumps, less noise, less chance of a pellet going too far.

There are a couple of things about the streaks that it seems most people just don't quite get.
Every pump adds more power, but it changes the trajectory. Me I do all my target shooting with just 2 pumps, that is enough for 20 feet to 20 yards with good accuracy. Going up one pump for a live target does not change that much. But going up to 8 full pumps will.

I have never felt the need to pump it all the way up for every shot. In fact I would bet that I have shot it at full power against a living target less than a handful of times.

That last 4 pumps you are up against diminishing returns. I have seen the chrono shot strings for a Blue streak starting at 2 pumps. By 4 pumps the fps was over 500. By 8 pumps it got over 600.

As I remember 3 pumps was in the mid 400's and 3 pumps was in the 350's + area.

For a small target like a bird, cottontail, or squirrel head shot that is more than enough.

[Multigunner]

Most pump up guns are supposed to be left with one or two pumps worth of pressure in the valve if the gun is going to be left in storage or unused for any lengthy period of time. This is to prevent the seals from drying up and shrinking.

I recently re conditioned a very old 1377, the model with separate cocking knob and sliding sheet metal breech cover rather than a bolt, that would not pump up at all much less hold air due to having been left dry in a storage bin for many years. All that was required was to liberally lube the pump with ATF transmission fluid and work the pump a few times. Each time I pumped it up and let it sit for an hour the seals became tighter. Shortly it was pumping up and holding air overnight. Works good as new now.

[35 shooter]

I watched a video of a young man with a Benjamin 392 or 397(can't remember which now) running it across a chrono.
When he put 8 pumps in it, it was only varying + or - 1 fps. for the string.

I've never seen such small variances in vel. across a chrony before.
It's got to be a very accurate pellet rifle.

[Shooter6br]

Read Pyramid Airguns fot video of spring vs gas pros and cons

[GhostHawk]

35 shooter, I looked for 45 years to find an air rifle with more power, and as accurate as ol blue.

I shot a pin today. 1/4 inch measured round plastic headed push pin. At 20 feet. Confirmed zero was dead center, shooting where it is supposed to. Reloaded, took aim, pin vanished.

Yeah, thats fun. You could do thumb tanks vertically as well.

Ol blue would do it also, but it is harder with iron sights and old eyes.

Shot more than a few wings off fly's back when I was young. Barn spiders in the shadows at 15 yards can be fun.

I enjoy a little variety. With Air rifles if you shop a little, read a lot you can often get a lot for not a lot of cash. There are just a ton of accurate good rifles in the 150 to 300$ price range.

I suggest you do some reading here.

http://www.gatewaytoairguns.org

[35 shooter]

Thanks for the link GhostHawk. No matter if i pick one of the "more modern" air rifles or not, i think i may well wind up with a Benji 392 or 397 as well.

They're too cool to pass up.

[GhostHawk]

Shooter if I was not sitting on ol blue and his younger cousin 80's blue I would for sure own one or both.

I am however partial to the 5mm .20 caliber.

They are still available to be found. Guy in wisconsin this week found one of the old original prototypes still in shooting condition. I am sure it is old enough that it is worth thousands. But I doubt he will sell it. I'm not even sure he will try to restore it. I think that piece of history is a wall hanger.

The GTA site in its way also has a very good community. They do tend to be a bit younger, although some of us ol farts try to keep them settled down.

They are a lot like this place, they spend a lot of time, attention, and money on their passion.

[35 shooter]

I'm still researching all i can each night. Lately i've been reading all i could on the springers, and am impressed with the simplicity of the design.
I also found several hunting related reports from folks that use them a lot.
Several of those reports were on leaving them cocked for hunting, and that it was fine for a few hours at a time, just as some of the posts here have indicated. Some of these owners had been doing it for years while hunting with no spring related problems.

Considering the simple parts involved and the simplicity of the design, i believe i will go with a springer to start with at least.
I'll probably go ahead and make an adjustable compression jig before i even get a rifle, so if i have any problems, or just want to take it down to do a thorough cleaning and greasing of the parts, i'll be ready to do it.

I'm kind of leaning toward the Hatsan 95 in .22 right now. It would be easy enough to convert this one to gas piston if i ever wanted to.

[jh45gun]

Just buy a Hatsan Vortex gas ram gun. The Edges are great deals.

[35 shooter]

Just buy a Hatsan Vortex gas ram gun. The Edges are great deals.

Nothing wrong with that advice for sure. My brother really likes his Edge in 22 with the gas ram.

So far my picks are:
1. Hatsan 95 in .22 springer
2. Hatsan Edge in .22 gas ram
3. Umarex Octane in .22 gas ram
4. Benjamin Trail NP in .25 gas ram
5. Hatsan 135 in 25 gas ram
6. Diana 34 in 22 cal.
7. Hatsan 125th or 125 gas ram in .25 cal.
6. Diana 34 in .22 springer