How to value a custom rifle?

[Idaho45guy]

The other thread on value of the two rifles got me to thinking about one I have. I need to update my insurance policy for the year and make sure I have adequate coverage for my firearms.

The rifle in question was a gift from my father years ago and I will never sell it. I also don't want to ask him how much it is worth as that would seem inappropriate.

The rifle is based on a Pre-`64 Winchester Model 70 action. The action has been worked over and is smooth as butter. The barrel is a heavy contour and is chambered in .35 Whelen. It has iron sights as well as a low power Burris scope. Stock is a custom laminated piece with fine checkering and beautiful details.

My father owns many custom rifles and his main gunsmith was the famous Al Biesen in Spokane. However, he did mention that this wasn't one of those that Al did for him.

Some pics:

190055

190056

190057

[KCSO]

On how bad the buyer want's it I guess. Certinaly a big name gun is going to bring more money, but the word custom covers a lot of ground and You need to find a buyer tht want's what you want.

I built a rifle for a fellow once, tried to talk him out of it but he spent good money to have a long rifle built with a percussion Hawken lock, A revolutionary era stock and a mix of ivory, brass and silver fittings the silver from hammered out silver dollars.

When he died his widow wanted to get back what he spent for the gun and never did, no one wanted it. I have a Sedgly Krag that I love but I got it cheap because no one in this area knew Sedgly or wanted an old Krag, that rifle was $26.50 when it was built and that was a MONTHS wages. No one wants to think that their pride and joy is worth a penny les than they gave but it's all in finding a buyer. Best option is to have the guns photographed and have one of the big auction houses give you an idea. Depending on where you are you might not get a square deal.

Now as to the gun in the picture, hat kind of workmanship is a spendy gun, I would want at least $900-1000, but Cabela's will offer you 300-400 and herein the Midwest a 35 Whelen will sit on the shelf forever with no one interested.

[Love Life]

Good provenance would increase value.

With no providence, you have a well smithed, but altered pre-64 Winchester.

For insurance purposes, I'd insure it for what it would cost to have the rifle built today. Cost of new rifle+barrel+chambering+sight install+scope bases and scope+stock+smith costs=amount to insure for.

[waksupi]

It's tough to price them. A rifle we would sell here in Montana for $2000, would go for $4000+ back east, or on the coast. It's all location.

[snowwolfe]

Value wouldnt be much. Mainly because it is a desirable action that has been modified combined with a laminated stock. About the cheapest type of stock on the market. If that rifle would bring $1,900 at auction I would be shocked.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

For insurance purposes, the value of a custom gun that you never intend to sell, would be replacement value...as Love Life explains.

Gunshow value (in my area) would be less than $1000 (probably closer to $700).

[Mk42gunner]

Since you are asking for insurance value and not what you can get for it, I think Lovelife's advice of valuing it at replacement cost is good.

One of the few ways to loose money faster than trying to sell a new vehicle is to try to recoup your cost on a custom rifle.

Robert

[richmanpoorman]

The value insured does not make a HUGE difference in the premium. I have one of these policies for my best guns. Were that gun mine, I'd insure it for replacement at $2000.00. Market value in your location is immaterial. Were it stolen/destroyed, you should go to several Smiths and get a price to build a twin. You should have LOTS of photos stored elsewhere (of a lot better quality than those you posted) to fend off claims of a depreciated value. Rule number 1. Insurance companies don't want to pay out money. Rule number 2. see rule number 1 !!!!!

[waksupi]

I think the rifle was built by Mel Smart, from Kalispell.

[Hardcast416taylor]

I`ve seen quite afew sportered Mausers as well as `03 and A3 Springfields as well as 1917 Enfields cross over the counters of gunshops. They may be very nicely done and finished with scopes on most and other extra features done. But the gunshop personnel just looks up what the parent rifle is going for still in full Mil. shape and that is what is offered, a take it or leave it attitude accompanies the offer.Robert

[Geezer in NH]

About 1/3 of what you paid to have it made in true reality sorry.

[Love Life]

I think it is a lovely rifle, and the stock is very interesting.

[JimB..]

I used to insure some things that were "priceless" and/or "irreplaceable" to me. I stopped because if they get gone the money isn't going to bring them back anyway and the insurance money won't reduce my level of unhappy/upset a bit. Some things you just can't insure.

[Lance Boyle]

I Would say its value is approximately the value of the parts plus the gunsmithing labor.

Nice rifle but i think. 800 to 1000 on a rack around
here would be generous. Stock form is worth more generally.

[Idaho45guy]

I Would say its value is approximately the value of the parts plus the gunsmithing labor.

Nice rifle but i think. 800 to 1000 on a rack around
here would be generous. Stock form is worth more generally.

I know I know nothing about custom rifles, but when a Ruger Gunsite rifle goes for $900 and a regular Winchester M70 goes for $800, I don't see how anyone can think a full custom pre-`64 Model 70 done by a very good gunsmith could be worth under $1000.

[Idaho45guy]

I think the rifle was built by Mel Smart, from Kalispell.

I think you're right. Stock is an Acra-Bond, which he developed. Dad goes to shoots up there all the time for BPCR and has mentioned rifles being in Montana being built.

Mel passed away in 2003 and was a very accomplished Master Gunsmith. I was given the rifle in 1998.

I found a company that worked with Mel in Montana called Kilimanjaro that builds a rifle just like mine called The Kilimanjaro. The base price starts at $17,500...

$800... :groner:

http://kilimanjarorifles.com/custom-rifles/kilimanjaro.html

190112

Base Price $ 17,500 Available Options:


Multiple Rifle Discount (Same Time - All Rifles)

10%



Action Options:




Customer Provided Action Credit

($1,500)




Customer Provided Barreled Action Credit

($2,000)




Granite Mountain Action

$1,200



Wildcat/Archaic Chambering

$500



Wood Upgrades:




Exhibition Grade Wood

$1,000




Premier Grade Wood

$2,000



Grip Cap Ebony/Ironwood Ring With Walnut Insert

$500



Mannlicher Full Length Stock

$1,500



Schnabel Forearm Tip

$250



Barrel Band

$200



Muzzle Break

$300



Mercury Recoil Reducer In Stock

$200



Quarter Rib On Barrel

$1,500



Bolt Knob Checkering

$400



Custom Engraving Options




Initials Only On Floorplate

$500




Decorative Engraving On Floorplate Only

$1,000




Full Decorative Engraving

$2,000




Game Scene & Full Decorative Engraving

$3,000




Full Decorative Engraving With 24k Gold Inlay

$3,000




Game Scene Engraving With 24k Gold Inlay

$4,000



Color Case Hardened Accents

$750



High Polish Blued Metal Finish

$750



Deluxe Delivery Package

$400



International Export

$1,000



Anything Your Heart Desires

Price On Request



Price List PDF (http://kilimanjarorifles.com/assets/pdf/kilimanjaro-pricing-sheet.pdf)

[Idaho45guy]

I will be upgrading my firearms storage and my policy, ASAP...

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I think your father had great taste. The stock is perfect to my eyes, with no weird flared pistol grip, white line spacers or flat Weatherby fore end. I think the stock was laminated to add stability to the beautifully figured walnut. I don't know what a nice pre-64 model 70 action goes for these days but I am sure it is several hundred bucks. I would price similar custom rifles for insurance purposes but I wouldn't sell it for love nor money.

[exile]

What a beautiful rifle. Not that I know anything about custom rifles, but isn't there a guy named David Miller who uses pre-64 model 70 actions to build custom rifles? I think his start at about ten thousand dollars.

exile

[5Shot]

I'd see what info you can get from Kilimanjaro to aid you in a value. Aside from that, I'll give you $1200 for it.

[54bore]

It's tough to price them. A rifle we would sell here in Montana for $2000, would go for $4000+ back east, or on the coast. It's all location.

EXACTLY!! I moved to Idaho from the Wa coast about 6 years ago, altho its only 400 miles from here it is literally a WORLD of difference in what guns sell for.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I know I know nothing about custom rifles, but when a Ruger Gunsite rifle goes for $900 and a regular Winchester M70 goes for $800, I don't see how anyone can think a full custom pre-`64 Model 70 done by a very good gunsmith could be worth under $1000.
I apologize if my comment offended you, I surely didn't intend to. It was my honest response to the original post and photo's that are less than flattering. My experience has really only been working one gunshow a year for over 20 years, and visiting many many others...and I've owned several custom Mausers, and took a bath on them when they were sold at auction two years ago...but they surely didn't have the provenance of a Kilimanjaro.
again, sorry.

[snowwolfe]

I know I know nothing about custom rifles, but when a Ruger Gunsite rifle goes for $900 and a regular Winchester M70 goes for $800, I don't see how anyone can think a full custom pre-`64 Model 70 done by a very good gunsmith could be worth under $1000.

The Ruger gunsite is "stock" and the Winchester 70 is modified. As a general rule any item modified will sell for less. Granted, I still think the W70 would bring more than $1,000. But that doesnt change the fact that most people, especially collectors would pass on the W70 because it was modified.

[waksupi]

I think you're right. Stock is an Acra-Bond, which he developed. Dad goes to shoots up there all the time for BPCR and has mentioned rifles being in Montana being built.

Mel passed away in 2003 and was a very accomplished Master Gunsmith. I was given the rifle in 1998.

I found a company that worked with Mel in Montana called Kilimanjaro that builds a rifle just like mine called The Kilimanjaro. The base price starts at $17,500...

$800... :groner:

http://kilimanjarorifles.com/custom-rifles/kilimanjaro.html

190112

Base Price $ 17,500

Available Options:


Multiple Rifle Discount (Same Time - All Rifles)
10%


Action Options:



Customer Provided Action Credit
($1,500)



Customer Provided Barreled Action Credit
($2,000)



Granite Mountain Action
$1,200


Wildcat/Archaic Chambering
$500


Wood Upgrades:



Exhibition Grade Wood
$1,000



Premier Grade Wood
$2,000


Grip Cap Ebony/Ironwood Ring With Walnut Insert
$500


Mannlicher Full Length Stock
$1,500


Schnabel Forearm Tip
$250


Barrel Band
$200


Muzzle Break
$300


Mercury Recoil Reducer In Stock
$200


Quarter Rib On Barrel
$1,500


Bolt Knob Checkering
$400


Custom Engraving Options



Initials Only On Floorplate
$500



Decorative Engraving On Floorplate Only
$1,000



Full Decorative Engraving
$2,000



Game Scene & Full Decorative Engraving
$3,000



Full Decorative Engraving With 24k Gold Inlay
$3,000



Game Scene Engraving With 24k Gold Inlay
$4,000


Color Case Hardened Accents
$750


High Polish Blued Metal Finish
$750


Deluxe Delivery Package
$400


International Export
$1,000


Anything Your Heart Desires
Price On Request


Price List PDF (http://kilimanjarorifles.com/assets/pdf/kilimanjaro-pricing-sheet.pdf)



Rod Rogers worked with Mel Smart for many years, and started Serengeti Rifles after Mel's death. Mel had fallen on bad health, and Rod bought him out to help his wife with bills.
When I worked there, I redesigned all of the stock patterns we were using, as some of Mel's designs made it difficult to clean from the breech.
Rod was also the designer for the Montana 1999 actions.
Kilimanjaro was the result of the break up of Serengeti Rifles. Gene Gordner and I worked there together, and he was the builder for Kilimanjaro under new management. Gene is now building on his own, from his own shop. We shoot together often.

[54bore]

Rod Rogers worked with Mel Smart for many years, and started Serengeti Rifles after Mel's death. Mel had fallen on bad health, and Rod bought him out to help his wife with bills.
When I worked there, I redesigned all of the stock patterns we were using, as some of Mel's designs made it difficult to clean from the breech.
Rod was also the designer for the Montana 1999 actions.
Kilimanjaro was the result of the break up of Serengeti Rifles. Gene Gordner and I worked there together, and he was the builder for Kilimanjaro under new management. Gene is now building on his own, from his own shop. We shoot together often.

Awesome History lesson Mr Waksupi!!

[blackthorn]

From the original post:
Quote " I need to update my insurance policy for the year and make sure I have adequate coverage for my firearms.

The rifle in question was a gift from my father years ago and I will never sell it. I also don't want to ask him how much it is worth as that would seem inappropriate."

My suggestion would be to talk it over with your Father. I would start the conversation with a comment to the effect that I was updating my insurance but was having trouble deciding what value to put on my guns. That should generate an opening to find out what he thinks the gun is worth. I guess it depends largely on how freely you and your Father are comfortable with discussing (what might be to some) "touchy" subjects. Personally, I have 2 sons and I would rather they asked me that type of question than not. On another note, you will need to have clearly identifiable, excellent pictures of the rifle if you hope to ever recover the insured value of such a rifle if you are unfortunate enough to have to make a claim. My experience is that insurance companies are quick to collect premiums but when paying out----not so much!

[Char-Gar]

Custom rifles that are made and marked by such people as Robert Owen, Griffin and Howe and other fine gunmakers have a steady market at some good prices. However, they sell for far less than it would cost to have one made today.

[Love Life]

The problem is lack of proof of who built it. If it were marked by a very prominent, high end smith, then the value would be higher.

No markings, no paper, no provenance=just a modified factory rifle in the eyes of a buyer.

I see it all the time in my world. A GAP will sell for 75%-90% retail depending on condition and options because GAP is a known quality.. A non branded, but well built, custom build with the same specs as the GAP might get you the value of the parts out of it...maybe.

I think your rifle is beautiful, and I wouldn't bat an eye to pay $800 if it is in good condition. I might go up to $1,100 just for cool factor. But that is as high as I would feel safe without slam dunk provenance on the rifle. That is why I recommended insuring it for what it would cost to build the rifle today.

I hope my post does not come across as insulting because that is not my intent.

[onceabull]

I enjoyed the opportunity to get "hands on" with two Serengeti rifles from the Waksupi "era" that had passed from the orig.owners hands..Both were wonderful pieces of workmanship, and he gave me helpful advice as to approximating the orig.build price.. The one I especially favored sold for about 55% of the estimated build price.. and I was stretched into the plastic to offer 50% about a month B4 the sale went through (3-4 years ago) Maybeso not quite a D'arcy Echols match,but far less greenspans !!!! Onceabull

[Idaho45guy]

I apologize if my comment offended you, I surely didn't intend to. It was my honest response to the original post and photo's that are less than flattering. My experience has really only been working one gunshow a year for over 20 years, and visiting many many others...and I've owned several custom Mausers, and took a bath on them when they were sold at auction two years ago...but they surely didn't have the provenance of a Kilimanjaro.
again, sorry.

No offense taken... Just having a hard time thinking a plastic AR in .308 could be worth more than a beautiful custom rifle...

A couple more pics... Need more detailed ones, for sure...

190188

190189

[C. Latch]

Your father has fine tastes in rifles.

[richmanpoorman]

OMG! all the OP wanted was some advice on insurance. He got most that was wrong and a nice discussion on classic rifles.

What someone will or won't pay is immaterial. It is an easily duplicated rifle that could be built for 2 grand.

[JimB..]

Ok, at the risk of sounding really stupid, is that scope mounted backwards?

[Sam Casey]

Agree with Richman. Money spent on gun insurance is waisted money. They will not want to pay for your self described high dollar gun. Better IMO to find a nice climate controlled storage unit and put a few nice items there. A few more at home in good safe leaving some cheaper stuff easier to find. Maybe a few more at club with storage or with a trusted relative. Move them around from time to time. You never want to put all in one place unless you have very high level security.

[snowwolfe]

It's tough to price them. A rifle we would sell here in Montana for $2000, would go for $4000+ back east, or on the coast. It's all location.

If that were true people would be making a lot of money flipping guns on gunbrokers or other "for
sale" web sites.

[waksupi]

If that were true people would be making a lot of money flipping guns on gunbrokers or other "for
sale" web sites.

That's why I consign higher end stuff back east. I had items in art galleries on the east coast for years, much better sales than here. Same with guns, I recently sold a custom rifle out of state, the money is not in the northern Rockies.

[onceabull]

I'm not sure what another gentlemans take is on "a lot of money"..But I have a personal example to share...I carried a Belg.Browning Safari grade in 300 H&H to probably at least 15 local & regional gunshows over the course of three years, Started out a $975, & was up to $1250 the last time I took it to one..SOLD at first asking on GunBroker for $2150 to a fellow from Manitoba ,who likely has another $300 invested B4 he could actually hold the rifle...I wouldn't have been hurting at $975 ,since I bought it a gunshow hereabouts,and began marketing it shortly thereafter..Caught great Feedback from my buyer,too!!.!!

[Lloyd Smale]

hard to recoup what you have into a custom selling it. To me id put it at about a grand. Youd be into that buying a doner gun just to get a pre 64 action. Ive got a custom mauser 2506 with AAA French walnut that's flat out beautiful that in todays money I probably have 2k into. Id be lucky to get half that if I brought it to a gun shop.

[richmanpoorman]

A no salt Safari in 300 H&H is easily a $2000 rifle. Try and find one. I did...... and more. Safari, RMEF Browning, Custom No. 1, 721 upgraded, 721 upgraded, all "Super Thirty" chamberings.

190441190442190438190440190445

[country gent]

All of my Match rifles and custom guns are insured at replacement value, what it would cost to have them built again. One thing when doing this is to have pictures, receipts for parts need to describe parts maker cost and such. Its hard to show the barrel maker in the picture. Also the gunsmith and his costs. This is if something happens then you can prove to insurance company what you had.

[richmanpoorman]

Yep, just what I said way back when.

[Geezer in NH]

Just make sure you have GAURANTEED REPLACMENT COST in the content policy.

THEN, you can truly argue with the insurance companies lawyers.