Blackhorn 209

[MakeMineA10mm]

I've seen this, talked to the guys at Western Powders about it (at the NRA convention), and finally decided to look into it. Then, I found that it's ONLY recommended for in-line muzzle-loaders using 209 primers, and is definitely discouraged from being used in cartridge loads. I wonder why?

[Don McDowell]

I wonder why anyone would even bother with a fake blackpowder in the first place. If you don't have the gumption to order bp from any one of several readily attainable sources, then why not just use smokeless and be done with it?

[MakeMineA10mm]

Well, let's see, it's not as hydroscopic, not corrosive, safer to store, doesn't require special powder measures or handling equipment, doesn't require nearly immediate cleaning of the gun and casings... Shall I go on?

Now, please don't interpret this is my not liking the holy black. I do. In fact, I'd much rather use the holy black over any of the other substitutes. 777, Pyrodex, and all the others, still have the bad qualities of black powder, just in lower amounts, and often they come with new complications. Blackhorn is supposed to be different.

I suggest you google Blackhorn and read some of the threads on message boards about guys that have shot it or tested it. It suffers NONE of the problems of the holy black or the substitutes. THAT is interesting. In fact, it is the ONLY thing that makes me consider a substitute over real black powder.

I'm tired of hand-loading one round at a time with black powder. I've either got to get a BP powder measure or switch to Blackhorn 209, IF it will work... Hence, my question. :coffee:

[Don McDowell]

IMHO its probably best you just stick with smokeless. None of the Excuses you use for not using black have much merit.
Not to mention the excessive cost of the fakes. You can shoot a multitude of smokeless powders for much less money than any of the subs per round, and still can use the cleanup,and other silly excuses for not shooting black.
Many of the falsey crap powders attack the cartridge brass so you still need to clean the brass afterward.

I do think it would be nice for forum operators to put up a section just for the bp subs , so these types of questions could go where they belong.

[SharpsShooter]

The Holy Black has problems??? When did this happen???


SS

[montana_charlie]

I wonder why anyone would even bother with a fake blackpowder in the first place.
Well, this particular powder was developed for a rifle that some would call a 'fake' muzzloader.

I'm tired of hand-loading one round at a time with black powder. I've either got to get a BP powder measure or switch to Blackhorn 209,
A great many of us use powder measures that are not classified as BP measures. I use a Redding...with all steel parts and a plastic hopper.

CM

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

MVA makes an excellent updated version of the old Belding & Mull that works very well with black, or smokeless.

Rich

[wiljen]

Gentlemen,

I understand that we have some very different viewpoints on Black powder and Black powder substitutes. Lets try to keep this thread on the original topic and not have it deteriorate into name-calling. Lovers of the Holy Black will continue to use it, us heretics will continue to use substitutes - simple as that.

I use both but will readily admit to using more of the substitutes than the real thing. I have even stooped to using Triple 7 in the 303 brit and 38 special cartridges because I can get it cheaper than about any other powder when the big box stores sell it off after hunting season ($8 a can). As for why no data for Blackhorn in cartridges - probably just a matter of new enough that no pressure testing has been done on cartridge guns yet. I suspect with time we will see more of a proliferation of cowboy data with it. The same pattern held true when triple 7 arrived on the scene and cartridge data is still pretty scarce. I did find one blog with some data they had worked up here.

http://bobshellsblog.blogspot.com/2008/07/blackhorn-209-powder.html


Btw T7 meters fairly nicely through the B&M measures available from Buffalo Arms, I suspect Blackhorn will do the same.

[Don McDowell]

The makers of Blackhorn 209 say specifically it's not to be used in cartridges, and only to be ignited by a 209 shotshell primer. The reason there's no data for it in cartridges don't get much simpler than that.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Wil,
Thanks very much for that link. Precisely what I was needing. (I also really liked the information on the Broomhandle Mauser.)

:drinks:

[Arctosman]

MakeMineA10mm:

You may have already found out by now, Western Powders ballistics engineer has been busy working up BPCR load data for Blakchorn 209.

Go to Blackhorn site load data: http://www.blackhorn209.com/loaddata/
and click on "view all load data as printable pdf file" to get copy of load sheet. Pay attention to notes at bottom of chart.

Of course this product isn't for the Holy Black purist. But, I admit-I've tried it in my .45-110 rifle. If you like the other BP substitutes, the you going to love this stuff. It really does do everything Western Powders claims.

It doesn't say so on his load sheet, but Blackhorn engineer advised to use solid crimp on case to get most consistant velocities.

Arctosman

[wiljen]

By my count, they now have data for roughly 25 cartridges none of which use 209 primers. Guess I might have been onto something after all ;).

[Don McDowell]

:roll: Good lord look at the pressures this junk is running:mrgreen: Most of the 45-70 loads aren't suitable for trapdoor. The loads listed for the 30-30 are pushing very hard on max for most smokeless load data. The pressures indicated for the bigger cartridges 45-90 etal would make for some extremely uncomfortable recoil:roll:
Have to use a petroleum based solvent to clean it up.
So the advantages are what again?:confused:

[Heavy lead]

The advantages are no water clean up, I'm not into dipping my encore in water if I can help it. Look guys I admire you who use the holy black. It's just not for me.I use it now because I really have not had good results with 777, or Shockeys or Clear Shot, So I use black or pyrodex, but if there really is something out there I could actually treat like smokeless (with cleaning procedures) and be safe I would use it even if it did cost 30 a can.

[Don McDowell]

There's no need to dunk your Encore in water , unless your a clumsy type and fall in the creek when wading across it.:mrgreen:

Just open the breech (if using one of the fake muzzleloader barrels remove the breech plug) run a dry patch on a jag from the breech to the muzzle. Then follow with a couple or 3 wet patches (plain water, soapy water, commercial citrus cleaner , or even just wet with spit) then follow with 3 or 4 dry patches and repeat if necessary. When the bore is clean run a damp oily patch thru and go on about what ever it is you do.:drinks:
If your cleaning a genuine muzzleloader, plug the touch hole with a tooth pick if flinter, or place a folded damp cleaning patch over the nipple and drop the hammer to hold it in place. Put a squirt of dishsoap in the muzzle and then fill the bore to the crown with boiling water. When the barrel stretches just enough the water level is below the crown remove the what ever you used to stop the leak, and flush the water thru with a patch on the end of the ramrod, then follow with a couple of dry patches and let it stand . When the gun is cooled off run an oiled patch down the bore and your done. Longest part is getting the water to boil

Rember also that 30$ per can is for 10 oz's. According to the data sheet that makes a 45-70 round cost the same per powder charge as using Goex Express or even Swiss if it's bought on sale.:neutral:

[Heavy lead]

OK, I'm going to hijack my own thread here.
Should I assume that cleanup would be better (using real black or pyrodex) if I were to use a real boolit with ?what lube? straight bore butter? or maybe a real lube that cartridge shooters use with black? Also what weight boolit and style do you bp shooter recommend in the encores 1/28 twist? Also is the 209 primer compatible with bp?

[Don McDowell]

Bore butter is a bit thin and gets a little to runny to use on bullets works great as a patch lube. Better to get something like Sagebrush Alox, or SPG to lube bullets with.
350 gr bullet with that 28 twist should do allright assuming we're speaking of 45 caliber.
Yes the 209 will work with real black, it may be a little hotter than needed but it'll definetly geterdone.

[MakeMineA10mm]

MakeMineA10mm:

You may have already found out by now, Western Powders ballistics engineer has been busy working up BPCR load data for Blakchorn 209.

Go to Blackhorn site load data: http://www.blackhorn209.com/loaddata/
and click on "view all load data as printable pdf file" to get copy of load sheet. Pay attention to notes at bottom of chart.

Of course this product isn't for the Holy Black purist. But, I admit-I've tried it in my .45-110 rifle. If you like the other BP substitutes, the you going to love this stuff. It really does do everything Western Powders claims.

It doesn't say so on his load sheet, but Blackhorn engineer advised to use solid crimp on case to get most consistant velocities.

Arctosman

Arctosman,
THANK YOU!!! That's great info on that link.

I see that Blackhorn is running close to 100% loading density right around hitting the max charge in many traditional cartridges (like the 38-40) and giving the exact right velocity (or really close - some higher, some a little lower).

That's impressive.

I always use Ballistol on my frontier-era arms, so BP or BH will clean up the same for me (except I can skip the hot water with BH).

The other question is what it does to brass cases. I would like to skip the glass cleaner/water jug with BP and not have the heavy encrusted ring of residue like 777. Anyone have a comment on what BH does to their brass??? Anyone done a test of letting some brass sit out without cleaning?

[13Echo]

Blackhorn apparently is a smokeless (nitrocellulose) propellant modified to give BP like burn and with additives to give some pseudosmoke. See post below in muzzleloading section.

It's awfully pricey but, if you only shoot a litttle and aren't into proper care of your rifle (for shame) I suppose it has a place. I'm sticking to the Holy Black.

Jerry Liles