03-Drill rifle rebuilds?

[broomhandle]

Hi Fellows,

Now is not the smartest time to ask this question BUT I feel I must.:killingpc
After reading a few post's other sites. I bought a 03-A3 drill rifle mainly for the stock, to convert my old reliable 50's hunting rifle back to military stock!
After reading up on drill rifles, I decided to rebuild the rifle's action, back to firing condition. I'm a retired Tool & Die maker - needing a project.

My question to all of you is, do you know of any rebuilds that failed? I can't find one instance on the net. A employee at the CMP store seemed to feel the action will coming apart!
All reports I have seen are POSITIVE!

I removed the old barrel, with my gunsmith help & proper tools, bought & fitted a new CMP barrel, fitted & installed a NOS bolt & other required parts. It head-spaced perfectly with the required reamer & gauges!

My plan to to strap the rifle down & fire one shot at a time with a good cleaning each time to break in the barrel & wrap the action in carpet as a safety. My thought is it should be ready to go after ten rounds to be fired normally. YOUR THOUGHTS?

Thanks for your interest,
broom

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Just on the first read-through your plan sounds o.k. These rifles were demilled in several different ways. How was yours done? Any holes through the receiver ring? What is the serial number range?

[bob208]

the a4 sniper reproductions of a few years ago were made up from drill rifles. never heard of any of them having a problem. I have not seen any others letting go either.

[mtnman31]

I have two that I'm mid-build with. The fist had only the mag cutoff welded - a tiny tack weld. The barrel had not been welded to the receiver. The second had the mag cutoff tack welded and the barrel to the receiver. The barrel-receiver weld was very small and shallow. I'm completely comfortable building it up. If the weld had been bigger and gotten more penetration, I might be concerned. In fact, one of the CMP guys looked my receivers over at Camp Perry and warned me about rebuilding them. I think they do that as a liability thing. Seriously, the one that had the tiny tack weld on just the mag cutoff is not in any way compromised. Your plan to build and test sounds fine to me. Best of luck and let us know how it goes.

[broomhandle]

Just on the first read-through your plan sounds o.k. These rifles were demilled in several different ways. How was yours done? Any holes through the receiver ring? What is the serial number range?

Hi Sir,

Small welds on both barrel & cut off assembly area. The barrel had more weld then the receiver.;) It cleaned up nicely
It's a Smith -Corona serial #3638xxx - new CMP barrel & NOS bolt, along with a new sight unit.

Good Shooting,
broom

[Der Gebirgsjager]

That sounds like a good prospect. I think it will work out for you. I hope you'll post a photo of your finished project. :D

[dg31872]

I do not know what I am talking about, so just for my information, would the welding on the receiver affect the heat treatment in any way?

[Larry Gibson]

I do not know what I am talking about, so just for my information, would the welding on the receiver affect the heat treatment in any way?

If done with an arc welder probably not. Heat buildup I the locking lug area would be minimal probably not more than shooting a couple rapid fire strings in a match. The hard '03 receivers used to be spot annealed with torches (arc and acetylene) to D&T them, never hurt a thing.

Larry Gibson

[skeet1]

broomhandle (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?562-broomhandle)
I have a 03-A3 Remington that had been a drill rifle with the mag cut off welded and the barrel tack welded to the receiver below the wood. It has a new old stock GI barrel installed and the mag cut off replaced. I have been shooting this rifle for several years now and seems to be just fine although I have mainly been shooting with lead bullets and 2400 powder. I have however, fired a fair amount of M2 ball ammo through it with out any problem whatsoever. If I had your rifle I would not worry about it and enjoy shooting it.

Ken

[akajun]

Ive rebuilt several, made them 03a3's for the as issued matches at perry and vintage sniper. ONe of them is my primary shooter o3a3 and has over 1k rds through it by now with Ball equivalent handloads. It shoots good enough to have taken 4th in the Springfield match at Perry. As long as you select one that had a minimal weld on the receiver ring, minimal weld on the bolt stop, and replace the bolt instead of trying to drill the firing pin hole back out, you will have no problems.

[Steelshooter]

My thoughts on this is the actions were deemed not safe to use by (should be) experts. Why take the chance.

[skeettx]

All the ones that I have had did just fine
Mike

[broomhandle]

I do not know what I am talking about, so just for my information, would the welding on the receiver affect the heat treatment in any way?

Hi Sir,

YES! Depending on the type of weld, heat used & the receiver steel -sometimes a receiver will crack or GOD forbid come apart!
I would not buy any receiver that had been welded back together! Unless it had been properly heat treated & properly checked. I hope I have stated this issue correctly.
The Drill rifles on the other hand, have been welded on the outside only-at the joint of the barrel & receiver- which I feel is not a real danger. The bolt action Springfield was made using a strong/ tough inner steel with a very hard outer shell.
The area I'm asking about "should" have minimal stress on it at all times. There is no sign of excessive heat damage to the receiver.
Sadly this safety issue has bugged me enough to ask more knowledgeable people about it!
My hope is all of us can learn something by asking a few questions.

Good Shooting,
broom

[broomhandle]

Hi Gentleman,

Thanks for ALL your reply's, most of which are positive & reassuring ! I really appreciate the negative posts too!
I too have a serious concern, that's why I posted in the first place.[smilie=6:

I'll get to shoot it later this week. I -WILL- strap it down (wrapped up in carpet) & use a string to pull the trigger! Clean after each shot to break in the barrel. Then I'll shoot it in a regular manner!

Hopeing I'm correct,
broom

[Der Gebirgsjager]

You are going to come back to the thread and tell us about how it turned out, aren't you? Also, a photo or two of the end result would be nice. Too bad you didn't take a "before" photo.

The carpet idea is a good one, but if you're not going to test it at a range where other people are present the "tire trick" works well also, and that's what I've used when test firing rifles about which there might be some doubt for the first few shots. You need an old tire, pickup truck size is the best, and lay it flat on the ground. Stick the rifles butt inside the tire and run a rope or suitable length bungee cord around the tire, over the butt's comb, and around the tire again on the other side of the butt. The forearm is lying across the top of the tire's side and is tied down in the same manner. Then you attach a strong string to the trigger, get back behind a tree or other suitable barricade and pull the trigger. When the gun fires it will make the tire rock and roll, but there is no fear of it flipping over and scratching up the gun. Anyway, one never turned over when I used the system.

[broomhandle]

Hi Der G,

I HOPE I will post, a good report. GOD willing! It's strange how a old guy that has been there & done that, can still have a nagging bad thought in his mind.
I'm a true computer caveman so don't expect any pictures. I sometimes have a problem sending a E- mail.

It is a good looking old rifle, nothing special at all. It did not see much service as a function rifle or as a drill rifle. Because there was no real damage (the usual little dents & bangs) to the original stock.
It's marked with a FJA in a box -original inspection mark (I think) RA & OC so it's been through the armory at least twice..for what I have no idea!

It's metal finish looks all original too, or it was re-parked before it became a drill rifle little wear on all parts. The rear sight was like new!Not all banged up like many others I have seen.

Good casting,reloading & shooting to you,
broom

[Der Gebirgsjager]

O.K., broomhandle, no photos. Just like a certain Moderator I can think of. Well then, it might interest you to know that your FJA marking means that the rifle was inspected by Frank J. Atwood, Lt. Col., USA who among inspecting other things, inspected M1903-A3 Remington rifles from 1942-1944. Since your specimen is a Smith Corona the stock may not be original to the rifle. No biggie in the world of US military rifles, were parts are freely interchanged by Ordnance without any regard at all to keeping things original. When you get the time you might recheck the other marking. RA, of course is Remington Arms, but I can't find anything in my references on OC.

The lone as-issued M1903-A3 in my collection is also a Smith Corona. I've also got a Remington M1903. These were covered very well in a magazine article by Mike Venturino who told how, when production of the M1903 resumed for WW II, that the big stockpile of parts remaining from the M1903 WW I production was used until exhausted, and as this or that part ran out newly manufactured parts of the M1903-A3 pattern were used. Mine is in almost new condition and except for the stock (no finger grooves) is all M1903 stuff except for the middle barrel band and the trigger guard/floor plate group which is '03-A3. But that part is well worn and badly pitted, so I think someone swapped it out for a more desirable M1903 milled part, now days extremely hard to get in new condition. Someday I'll connect with one and restore it.

[Wayne Smith]

I know Hatcher mentioned the 'Blue Pill' that was used for proofing but I don't remember if he described it specifically. You could research this and reproduce it to confirm - a re-proof.

[broomhandle]

Hi Der G,

It's in a Remington stock, might be original to the rifle.

broom

[broomhandle]

I know Hatcher mentioned the 'Blue Pill' that was used for proofing but I don't remember if he described it specifically. You could research this and reproduce it to confirm - a re-proof.

Hi Sir,
I think they were 20% over loaded. No, I don't think I have the nerve to go that high!
Just had a cold chill go down my spine, with that thought!LOL

Be well,
broom

[tomme boy]

If you are that concerned, send it out to be re heat treated.

[Shiloh]

Seen an 03-A3 and an M-1 brought back from the dead by a machinist with access to tools.The rifles however, just shoot cast.
The bolt handle was welded on both and there was a weld on the receiver where the barrel screws in. New barrels, new range time.

SHiloh

[Steelshooter]

Nothing like making bombs for future shooters.

[10-x]

About 20 years ago hand picked 2 drill 03A3's at a gun show. Both had cold " chicken do- do" looking welds between receiver and plugged barrels, same type welds on mag. cut off. Drimmel tool cut off disc took care of both spots. Rebarreled and shot very well, IIRC both were Smith Corona's. Now wish I had kept one.

[Moleman-]

The welds on the ones I've seen would best be described as small tac welds with little penetration. The Parkerizing color less than 1/4" away was normal so not much heat was used. Don't think you'll have any issues with it. I've also never seen where someone has had an issue with the 1903A3 Springfield rifles that were brought back to life. Several companies have rebuilt them in the past and other than the stigma I've not heard anything bad about those either.

[HollowPoint]

Somewhere along the line at least one person had a negative experience with the resurrection of one of these rifles and from then on it has gone into the annals of gospel-truth for anyone else looking to get one of these de-milled rifles up and running again. I'd be willing to bet that this "One-Person" tried to bring back an extensively welded example of these de-milled rifles.

There are the genuinely concerned and well intended dream-killers and then there are those with hands-on experience. The OP's decision is not if the rifle is still safe to use, the decision involves deciding which of the two parties above to listen to. If the gun has just a few spot welds locking it up it sounds like a prime candidate as a fixer-upper to me. A simple visual inspection to determine how deep the welds may have penetrated the steel should be your Go or No-Go gauge.

HollowPoint

[Steelshooter]

They were demilled for a reason.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The early original 03 rifles had the notorious heat-treatment deficiencies which are hotly debated on the board, with every shade of opinion from "never shoot" to "only affects a few, and the others are fine." I know of no such problems with the 03-A3. It might have been a good idea to check headspace before removal of the old barrel, but the chances are that the action was fine. Rifles acquire drill status for various reasons. With first-line equipment in wartime it would almost certain to be serious decrepitude, but yours was done at a time when the military had a lot of them it didn't want, and probably so classed perfectly good ones.

I think it was a very good idea to replace the bolt, if the firing-pin hole was welded up. That is very close to the locking lugs, and the junction of the weld and the old metal, where it is both heated and cooled very quickly, would worry me more than gently soaking the whole thing at a high temperature. I can't see any harm coming from welding on the forward part of the receiver ring, which is further from the locking shoulders.

[texasnative46]

To All,

There are "demils" that amounted to LITTLE & some "drill rifles" that were "converted into junk" during the process.
(During my old boarding school DAZE of the early 1960s, we had some 1903A1 & Garand "drill rifles" that had had the firing pins removed & the firing pin hole welded shut. - NOTHING else was done to "demil" them. = I "plead guilty as charged" to have changed out the welded bolts for new ones, checked the headspace & we cadets fired the "drill rifles" thereafter on the school rifle team, with excellent results.)

Addenda: Also one of the Cadet Brigade staff officers "borrowed a rifle from the arms room" & took 2 WT bucks with it. = When Mike got "caught", he served several periods of "cleaning latrines" for his "against school-policy action".

yours, tex

[broomhandle]

They were demilled for a reason.

Hi Steelshooter,

This particular drill rifle gauged at a 2 on the barrel! Never thought to check the throat erosion, after we took the barrel off.

Actually it does not look bad now, that the steel rod has been removed! I'll have to bring the stub, when I visit the gunsmith again! The bolt did lock up well, (both lugs actually) as was seen, when we looked at it & the back of the receiver where the bolt locked up!

Please remember, when the rifles were converted to drill status, almost every high school had a rifle team & a drill team along with the Boy Scouts, Sea Scouts, Boys Clubs & many VFW posts! We were very PATRIOTIC back then! There was HUGE call for them. "WE" & the politicians of the time, actually fought to WIN!

With luck, I'll get a chance to try it out tomorrow.

Thanks for your interest & your caution is well taken,
broom

[M-Tecs]

They were demilled for a reason.

Correct and the reason was at one time there was a very large demand of rifles not capable of live fire.

[Moleman-]

I ended up with 2 of the 03A3 drill barrels. The bore (except for near the weld end) were bright and shiney. Ended up just cutting off the chamber area anyway so it wasn't an issue. One is currently a 308x39 and the other will end up being a 30 luger or 300bo at some point.

[Steelshooter]

How does welding the barrel to the action or welding the mag. cutoff make the rifle non firing. The actions were deemed unserviceable. But who am I to say. If your happy I am happy.

[colchester]

I did one in 45 acp. It looks a little sketchy around the bolt release but came out pretty nice overall

[broomhandle]

Hi Fellows.

I fired the rifle today! I'm happy to report that the rifle & I are FINE!

I was a little ill at ease the first few rounds. The CMP employee had spooked me about a blow up!

For safety sake, I had the rifle on it's side-bolt up. It was wrapped in three thick towels & a section of carpet. To properly break in the barrel I fired one round & cleaned the bore well. This was repeated with each shot. The rifle was just pointed down range, wrapped in the towels & carpet. I used a coat hanger to fire the rifle.
After the 8th shot, I fired the rifle in a normal manner. I'm happy to report handling the rifle was a little strange, but I had three holes touching at 50 yards. I'm sure with a little practice I'll reach out more. Friday I'll finish breaking in the barrel & shoot it a little more.
So at this point & the TOTAL lack of any reported blow up's on any search I have done. I would say the majority of posters here & other boards are correct. A Drill rifle in good shape & with small welds have a good gunsmith build or direct you & you should have nice safe historic rifle.
Of course, there can be a bad rifle's out there, so go forward at your own risk! You have been warned. I was & asked questions here & other places. BEFORE & after I got involved!

Be SAFE & Good Luck to all of you,
broom

[broomhandle]

How does welding the barrel to the action or welding the mag. cutoff make the rifle non firing. The actions were deemed unserviceable. But who am I to say. If your happy I am happy.

Hi Steelshooter,

You totally miss the point, they were MADE unserviceable! We had Millions of usable bolt action rifles on hand "WE" had entered the semi -auto rifle age! With the M-1 Garand (1938?) the bolt action rifle at that point, had no real military use except for training & service troops behind the lines.
The barrel has a steel rod hammered or welded into the bore at the breach, which is in turn,is welded through a slot ground or cut into the underside of the barrel. The barrel is now unable to accept a bullet. it's safe! The welding of the area between the barrel & receiver, is a second safety measure the CMP took to make it harder for a quick barrel switch. A Federal requirement?
The fireing pin in the bolt is broken off & the bolts fireing pin hole is welded up. Usually with a big weld!

The bolt can't be removed from the action, because because the bolt mag cut off is welded up solidly in a position that has a solid steel stop in place! It can't come apart without destroying that unit in most cases!

Be well,
broom

[Steelshooter]

I don't know where you heard that story from, I read your question over on cmp forum. The guns would come back to the armory and checked out, any guns considered serviceable were sold to the public thru cmp. My grandfather use to buy them by the crate, any rifle deemed unserviceable were welded up and sold as drill rifles. Btw my grandfather would buy them for $10 to $20 apiece, if I knew then what I know now. Any way its good to see you are okay and good luck to you.

[Multigunner]

Well from what I gleaned from a write up by a CMP employee the 1903 drill rifles were the problem not the 03A3 actioned Drill Rifles.
Near as I can tell 03 drill rifles were converted from rifles not considered serviceable, many being Low Number receivers judged unfit for re barreling.
Some of those Low Number receivers were found to have broken up under the stress of square bashing alone.
I expect, though I'm not sure, that early weld ups were done with gas and rod rather than tack welds.

I've also read that of the commercial 03A3 reactivations as many as 40% failed proof and were scraped.

That's just what I've read from what appeared to be reliable sources.

I'm not saying all such reactivated drill rifles are suspect, only that some did not make the grade. Better that they failed in proof testing than on the range.

[Multigunner]

Also many 03A3 weld up jobs were done by the USN not by the CMP. The Navy used 03A3 drill rifles for many years after WW2. The method and extent of welding varied according to when where and by whom it was done but the finished product had to conform to a specification.

[broomhandle]

I've also read that of the commercial 03A3 reactivations as many as 40% failed proof and were scraped.

That's just what I've read from what appeared to be reliable sources.

I'm not saying all such reactivated drill rifles are suspect, only that some did not make the grade. Better that they failed in proof testing than on the range.

Hi Steelshooter,

If it's not a big deal to locate, could you post that source.

Thanks for your reply,
broom








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[Paul5388]

I've been shooting a chrome plated 03-A3 for the past 10 years. The barrel is marked RA
02-44. I haven't seen any signs of welding on it.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y121/Paul5388/30-0631129120grSR465950yds.jpg

[M-Tecs]

My knowledge of the history of demilled drill rifles is limited. I do have a couple of questions.

The CMP has only been in existence since 1996 and I was not aware they demilled any rifles??? Anyone have document that the CMP does demills?

The DCM was a department of the Army and as such followed Army regulations. Did the DCM demill or was it done a the depot level?

The mass sales of surplus firearms in the 50's and 60's I thought was done by the NRA. Correct or incorrect?

[texasnative46]

Paul5388,

My suspicion is that your rifle was once the property of a military school cadet "fancy drill team". = We had DOZENS of similar rifles in our arms room in the mid-1960s when I was a NDCC cadet.

yours, tex

[Steelshooter]

Broomhandle
If I remember, or if I find it on the web I will let you know. It was 40-50 years ago.

[lreed]

There were some questions about proofing reclaimed drill rifles,Roy Dunlap in his book"Gunsmithing"page 178 gives a 10% above factory standard,about three grains above max. He states,new brass,check flash hole for standard,clean,dry chamber,at least five rounds fired with headspace checked after each shot fired. The book did not mention drill rifles as such,but recommends proofing after barrel,chamber or action work. I have built up a few reclaimed 03a3s,used his recommendations to good effect, a real gut-wrencher to jerk the string on all the work involved. Of course your mileage can vary drastically!!! lreed

[broomhandle]

Hi Guys,

I finished the break in today. Everything went well. It was really windy, but i had a few nice groups at 100 yards & hit some steel at 200 & 300. Still getting the feel of the rifle!

Best to all,
broom

[Multigunner]

Glad the rifle is working out for you.
While I personally won't invest in a reactivated rifle of any sort I can appreciate the draw of bringing something back from such a deactivation.
Years ago I ran across Canadian Inglis manufacture P-35 pistols that had been deactivated for use in hand to hand combat training. They were selling for $20 each IIRC. The pistols were complete other than a dummy or plugged barrel being secured by having a square cross section pin driven into the hole for the take down pin and being heavily coated with red or blue enamel. perhaps a skilled welder and machinist, and I knew several real artists of the trade back then, could have welded up the buggered hole and re drilled it, then only a new barrel and takedown pin would have been required to make the guns useable again.

Many MG and SMG receivers have been rewelded. With blowback SMGs there's not that much stress on the receiver compared to a locked breech weapon.

Its possible to build up shortened or lengthened rifle actions by cutting and rewelding, so long as the action is front locking and a heat sink protects vital areas.

I'd much rather find a bubba'ed sporter built on a Springfield action and restore it, if necessary by using furniture and other parts scavenged from a Drill Rifle.

I'm more used to people asking about reactivating DP'ed Enfields, which in many cases were made from totally unsuitable actions, in some cases from rifles that have been salvaged from burned ships or buildings the heat treatment now non existent.
I don't doubt that at least some Springfield Drill rifles were built on salvaged battle damaged parts. Certainly more than a few relatively undamaged Springfields were picked up from the battlefields and returned to service.
Awhile back a visitor to another board asked about reactivating a DP SMLE and later reported that the rifle had increased its headspace at every shot so he reversed the procedure and returned it to deactivated status, then bought a proper replacement that was safe to shoot.

[broomhandle]

Hi Multigunner,

Honestly, I can't question your sound logic!
If you asked me last year, about buying a drill rifle & spend good money to turn it into a functioning & firing rifle. I'm sure I would have told you, I would never consider it!
As a pal of mine has said a few times "Never say never!

Be well & ENJOY every day,
broom

[DCM]

Broomhandle are you in need of another stock for an 03a3? PM me if you need one, "I make you an offer you cannot refuse"
IIRC

"You won't know till you actually try it."

[broomhandle]

Hi DCM,

PM sent to you!
Thanks for your interesting "The GOD FATHER type" message! ;)
broom