Propane verses natural gas.

[triggerhappy243]

Someone at some point has had to ask at some point.................. I could not find the thread.

Has anyone used natural gas to fire their smelters?

Is natural gas flame as hot as propane?

I am curious, because i just went thru 6 bbq bottles of propane to smelt 900 pounds.

Inquiring minds want to know. Much rather spend the money on dinner and gunpowder.

[AlaskaScott]

Propane burns a little hotter, but costs more. Get a Dutch oven dome. I just did 1500lbs of lead with less than 30 lbs of propane

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Propane can burn hotter, which is useful for brazing etc., but for melting lead not nearly as important as protection from wind and confinement of the heat. It also requires better ventilation, and except for very small or brief jobs should be used only outdoors.

[BK7saum]

Man, that's a lot of propane. I think I'd use around 2 bottles to smelt that much. Biggest propane saver for me was a wind screen / shield around the pot to funnel and hold the heat from the burner.

[BK7saum]

http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee467/BLK7mm/2013-02-05170913-1.jpg (http://s1229.photobucket.com/user/BLK7mm/media/2013-02-05170913-1.jpg.html)

[TexasGrunt]

I did 300 lbs yesterday on about 1/4 of a bottle.

Stay away from the places that swap bottles. Those things are not full. Something is wrong with your setup.

[cga]

This is what I fabricated to use. It's has a 23 jet natural gas burner purchased from Amazon. Works great. Approximately 10,000 btu's per jet = 230,000 btu's.
https://www.amazon.com/Tip-Round-Nozzle-Burner-natural/dp/B00ADPD86A

I used a piece of sheet metal to help direct the heat, around the burner.
(Not sure if it was needed)
189600

189601
And a new 20 lb. propane tank for the pot purchased at Tractor Supply.
189602

If you need more heat, here is a 32 jet burner https://www.amazon.com/Tip-Round-Nozzle-Burner-natural/dp/B00ADPCSMA

[psweigle]

you need to shield the flame from the wind, no way you should have used that much propane. it is a hotter flame than natural gas. As stated, PLEASE use in a well ventiated area

[RedRiver]

I'm at well over 1200 lbs on the same 20 pound tank, getting low though.

[country gent]

A good wind shield around the pot and burner with some insulation in it makes it a lot more effcient. Ive been looking for a welders blanket to wrap around my wind screen on my pot to insulate it some. Hold heat in and help keep me from cooking my knees LOL. A 3 sided block wind break around the stand and pot just above the pot works wonders in a pinch

[lightman]

I agree with the others about that being a lot of gas for 900#. Pictures of your set-up might get some suggestions. My set-up would do 900# on less than 2 bottles. I've considered Natural Gas, especially since I've had a gas line run to my house for a generator. Have not done it though, I'm still using a homemade burner on propane.

If I were starting over from scratch I would build a bottom pour smelting pot with a capacity of around 400# fired from NG. It will never happen though, my smelting days are limited.

BK7 and cya have some nice looking rigs!

[mfraser264]

Have a single burner turkey roaster converted from LP to natural gas as it sucked the LP. Using natural gas melted down 250 pounds this past Jan. and not enough added to the gas bill to really notice.

A local machine shop had the top ring left over from a project - a flat doughnut made from 1/2" plate steel and it was just the right size. Looking at that burner mentioned earlier in the post with all the jets as a refit.

189616

[NavyVet1959]

Around here, all the gas services at the meter have an elbow with a 1/4" NPT fitting that is plugged. It's a simple matter to unscrew the plug and install a ball value like this:

http://cdn.conbraco.com/apollovalves/products/76-100/LRP_76-101-01A_side.png

I add put an female quick-connect air hose fitting on one end so that I can use my compressed air hose to feed the burner. I've probably got 150 ft of compressed air hoses, so I can move the smelting pot quite a ways from my house if so desired.

Natural gas works under less pressure than LPG, so the orifice needs to be a bit larger. I've found that drilling it out to 1/16" seems to be about right.

Also, the banjo type burners seem to work better than the jet type burners that you often see on some of the propane turkey fryers. Instead of a single high BTU flame where a lot of gas is being pushed through that single jet, natural gas works best with a lot of smaller jets.

http://www.academy.com/shop/pdp/king-kooker-6-low-pressure-replacement-burner#repChildCatid=27354
http://assets.academy.com/mgen/37/10045037.jpg
When you start smelting a large pot of lead, the weight really does go up, so you might want to consider making the stand that holds the smelting pot separate from the burner so that you can slide the burner under the smelting pot as necessary. Most of the turkey fryer burner stands are not sturdy enough to hold a really large pot of lead in my opinion. Some are designed such that they could probably be made a bit more structurally sound with some angle braces welded in the right places though.

[dragon813gt]

Something is majorly wrong if you used that much gas. I'm assuming you're talking about 20# tanks and not the little camping ones. I average close to a ton processed per tank. There is some barbecuing use in there as well so it's hard to say how many pounds I can process on one tank.

[triggerhappy243]

this is what i use

[Dale53]

Triggerhappy243,
that is the exact same set up I have used for years. With one helper, I have done 1000 lbs. in a day. My experience of propane is similar to yours.

My propane supplier charges $5.00 a tank service charge and the cost of fuel added. I get full value and a full tank 20 lbs. on his scale as it fills. Tank swap places generally give you only 15 lbs. I end up paying much less per lb. as I run my tanks empty before I refill them.

FWIW
Dale 53

[Tenbender]

Propane burns a little hotter, but costs more. Get a Dutch oven dome. I just did 1500lbs of lead with less than 30 lbs of propane

Propane is more expensive. ? However I can do 1500 to 2000 lb of WW with a 30 lb bottle. Can't run a NG line to my house for less than 10 grand ?

[hunter64]

At about 3.00 GJ for NG you are about 1/3 the cost of propane. Get that burner that Navyvet posted above(you have to open the orifice with a 1/16" drill to convert to NG) or stop by an metal recycling yard and look for a 40 year old hot water tank that has been thrown away. Most of there burners look exactly like that one and just pull it after disconnecting the burner line, thermocouple and pilot lines. Run a hose and a quick disconnect and you are in business. Never have to fill propane again or run out at the least handy time.

[triggerhappy243]

I guess I should add, that I also have to skim a sheeite load of copper shards and copper dust off the top before i can start the fluxing stages. maybe this is why I use soo much?

[BK7saum]

I flux 1 time at least before removing the jacket material. IF the smelt is very large, I flux and remove jackets, them add more range scrap to add more volume. I usually have 300 lb plus in my pot before I start to pour ingots. I may remove jackets a couple of times before I get to that volume of lead. Of course, I'm pulling off clean jackets to sell to the scrap yard as #2 copper.

[websterz]

I use the round burner from an old natural gas water heater. It may take a little longer to melt but my bottle never runs out in the middle of the job. :-)

[triggerhappy243]

BK7saum, same plan here. but my batches are only 65 pounds each.

[websterz]

Interesting thread, DIY stuff always makes for good reading.

[bullseye67]

Good evening, This is the set up I use to melt scrap into ingots. This is not mine. A fellow caster built it and I have borrowed it to process large volumes of COWW. Last time I used it I melted 10 pails of sorted COWW's about 1600lbs. I had a back up bottle just in case I ran out,but I didn't use a full 20lb tank of propane. I did have to make a wind break. This melter is a beast....as fast as you can add WW to it it will melt them down. It will hold a full pail melted down, it does make it a bit hard to flux about 170lbs of hot lead.
Pictures are of the melter and the results of a couple of hours, about 500lbs....had to stop for lunch:D

[bullseye67]

Just a bit more information about the melting pot. The pot is made from a piece of 8 inch ID pipe, I didn't measure the height but about 20 inches high. It is wrapped with wool rock insulation and then covered with tin. The insulation really keeps the heat in. The burner is made from a couple of pieces of black pipe with an orifice and a 90 to direct the flame under the pot. The propane runs through an adjustable regulator. I used it at the lowest possible setting to keep the lead molten. The legs are bolted together and dismantle to fold and store in the pot. It makes a very compact unit to store and is really stable when set up. The ingot molds are made from angle iron and make a 3.5lbs ingot on average. It make quick work of melting large amounts of scrap!!!

[Oklahoma Rebel]

I think that your tanks aren't being filled completely, did you say you traded them or had them filled?

[triggerhappy243]

I think that your tanks aren't being filled completely, did you say you traded them or had them filled?

at first I was scepitcle, so I weighed all my tanks when they were empty and tagged each one. all of them weigh 20 pounds more than the tag. I wonder if I have the burner set wrong.

[375RUGER]

How bout a wood fire and used motor oil......cheap.
100,000 BTU furnace will use about 97 cubic feet of natural gas or 40 cubic feet of propane per hour.

[lightman]

I'm not a gas expert, but something is wrong. Several of us would have used a lot less gas than that. Hope you get it figured out.

[mfraser264]

CGA, nice rig, did you fab that yourself?

[NavyVet1959]

BK7saum, same plan here. but my batches are only 65 pounds each.

If you are using the burner from a natural gas water heater, then the orifice is larger than you would be normally using for a propane burner.

Can't really tell from the photo that you posted in a previous post, but it looks like you might be using one of the banjo type burners. What size orifice are you using?

Of course, if you have natural gas at your house, it would make sense to run your smelting burner on natural gas anyway.

With natural gas, you want the flame to be starting right at the burner outlet. If you have the flow rate too high, the flame will tend to lift off the burner and that might cut down on your efficiency. If you want an interesting display, get rid of the regulator and run straight propane to the banjo burner. You should be able to get a 6 ft or more flame coming out of it. You control the flow rate by the valve on the top of the tank.

[Plate plinker]

You need wind screen and is it possible you are burning the flame hotter than necessary? Would half power be enough? Don't waste your BTU s by using extra fuel.

[conk45]

I just want to know where you guys are getting all this lead. You guys are talking in the hundreds to a thousand pounds. Hell I've called every tire shop in Oklahoma City. If I come up with 20lbs, I jumping with excitement. Very jealous here if you can't tell.


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[M-Tecs]

The heat transfer went starting from a cold pot and cold wheel weights is low. When I do large smelts I never let the pot get bellow 1/3 full. You need to ensure that the added wheel weights are dry but keeping the pot 1/3 to 1/2 full really increases production for me.

[TexasGrunt]

I just want to know where you guys are getting all this lead. You guys are talking in the hundreds to a thousand pounds. Hell I've called every tire shop in Oklahoma City. If I come up with 20lbs, I jumping with excitement. Very jealous here if you can't tell.


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Soft/pure I get from the local scrap yard(s). Wheel weights ya just have to get lucky. Picked up half a 55 gallon drum at the scrap yard. I'll finish sorting that today. Beyond that DON'T call. Visit. Bring cash and buckets. I've got a couple of tire shops on my visit list.

[conk45]

Soft/pure I get from the local scrap yard(s). Wheel weights ya just have to get lucky. Picked up half a 55 gallon drum at the scrap yard. I'll finish sorting that today. Beyond that DON'T call. Visit. Bring cash and buckets. I've got a couple of tire shops on my visit list.

At first I was visiting some of these tire shops, and always got a (we sell them to our recycler) response. I ask them how much, and they were hesitant about telling me. Don't think they want to sell them. I got tired of driving around so I just call now. I have a little mom and pop tire shop where I can get maybe 5lbs a month. I have a bunch of Soww and pure lead. I guess I need to get a recipe to make them shootable in a higher pressure cartridge.


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[lightman]

Wheelweight scores vary by location. Around here, the lead to other ratio is holding up well. Not so in many places. You just have to keep looking and asking. Smaller shops are usually better than the larger chain stores, but don't neglect asking them either. Consider buying your tires and getting your service work at the same place. This gives you some status as a good customer. Check with the scrap yards. Many won't sell to the public but some do. Stay on the lookout when traveling. Establishing a steady source could be worth a short trip, if necessary. Don't give up, be persistent!

[conk45]

Wheelweight scores vary by location. Around here, the lead to other ratio is holding up well. Not so in many places. You just have to keep looking and asking. Smaller shops are usually better than the larger chain stores, but don't neglect asking them either. Consider buying your tires and getting your service work at the same place. This gives you some status as a good customer. Check with the scrap yards. Many won't sell to the public but some do. Stay on the lookout when traveling. Establishing a steady source could be worth a short trip, if necessary. Don't give up, be persistent!

Will do. I know I need to get as many wheel weights as possible. I won't give up


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[jsizemore]

I started keeping track when I saw this thread. I just finished 1840lbs of range scrap on 1 20lb tank of propane. That was 23-80lb pots full in my 10quart dutch oven. I use the sheetmetal outer jacket and top from a 30gal low boy water heater. The water heater top sits on top of the dutch oven and the sides are just shy of supporting the top. The original holes in the top (electrical and plumbing connections) allow flue gases to escape and access for the thermometer to reach the melt. Where the thermostat/element access panels were allow fresh air for combustion and the hose to the turkey fryer. It has increased the amount of lead production from a single propane bottle by 4-5 times.

I also get my propane tanks filled at a LP gas fill station and stay away from the exchanges. They can be 20-25% shy on LP.

[Petrol & Powder]

Just FYI stuff but the BTU' available in one cubic foot of propane (not a common unit of measurement for propane) is about 2490 BTU's.
A cubic foot of natural gas produces about 1030 BTU's.
Because propane is sold by the gallon or the pound, it's a bit odd to convert it to cubic feet but in order to compare apple to apples - that is one way to make it work out.

The bottom line is that propane produces more energy per equivalent unit of natural gas but as others have pointed out, propane tends to cost more. From a pure efficiency viewpoint, propane is probably the winner. In terms of cost, that is going to depend on the initial cost of the fuel.

[NavyVet1959]

Just FYI stuff but the BTU' available in one cubic foot of propane (not a common unit of measurement for propane) is about 2490 BTU's.
A cubic foot of natural gas produces about 1030 BTU's.
Because propane is sold by the gallon or the pound, it's a bit odd to convert it to cubic feet but in order to compare apple to apples - that is one way to make it work out.

The bottom line is that propane produces more energy per equivalent unit of natural gas but as others have pointed out, propane tends to cost more. From a pure efficiency viewpoint, propane is probably the winner. In terms of cost, that is going to depend on the initial cost of the fuel.

You have to do a bit of conversions to get to the point of being able to compare apples to apples when you are talking natural gas and propane.

1 lb of propane = 21,564 BTUs
1 lb of natural gas = 19,500 - 22,500 BTUs
1 cu-ft of propane = 2572 BTUs
1 cu-ft of natural gas = 950 - 1150 BTUs

(source) (http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/heating-values-fuel-gases-d_823.html)

1 gal of propane = 91,333 BTUs (source) (https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/index.cfm/index.cfm?page=about_energy_units)

Therefore,
1 lb of natural gas = 19.565 - 20.536 cu-ft
1 lb of propane = 8.384 cu-ft

Right now...
propane costs about $2.402 per gal (excluding taxes). (source) (https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_wfr_a_EPLLPA_PRS_dpgal_w.htm)
and natural gas costs about $9.06 per 1000 cu-ft (excluding taxes). (source) (https://www.eia.gov/dnav/ng/ng_pri_sum_dcu_nus_m.htm)

So...
Since natural gas costs $9.06 per 1000 cu-ft and there are at least 950 BTUs per cu-ft for natural gas, that mean that it costs $9.06 per 950,000 BTUs = $0.0095368 per 1000 BTUs = 104,856.5 BTUs per $1.
and since propane costs $2.402 per gal and there are 91,333 BTUs per gal, that means that it costs $0.0262994 per 1000 BTUs = 38,023.73 BTUs per $1

So, using those figures, propane is about 2.76 times more expensive than natural gas.

Of course, things get even more complicated when you factor in how residential natural gas service is priced. If I remember correctly, with residential service, there is a base charge that comes with a certain number of cu-ft and you have to pay that amount whether you use the allotted amount of gas or not. Some gas companies have rates that vary depending upon how many cu-ft you use per month. You would think that if you use more gas, you would get a quantity discount, but that is not necessarily the way it works with the gas company pricing models. It might have something to do with trying to provide gas to low income people and the rest of us having to basically pay for their gas. If you do not use the base amount of gas, then using natural gas for smelting might not end up costing you *anything*. Each natural gas distribution company probably does this at least somewhat differently. I don't really pay attention to it since I use natural gas for my water heater, central heating, and rangetop burners anyway since it provides a nice backup in case the electricity goes off. I've also hooked it up for my outdoor grill / BBQ area and smelting area.

[Petrol & Powder]

NavyVet , you took the math a lot farther than me but there's no disputing your results.

Propane has more potential energy in a given unit but it cost more per BTU than natural gas. So, as you demonstrated, even though you must burn more natural gas to obtain the same amount of energy, the initial cost of natural gas is substantially lower than the cost of propane per BTU. And as you pointed out, even though you must burn more natural gas to generate the same amount of energy, it is STILL cheaper than propane in the end.

[NavyVet1959]

NavyVet , you took the math a lot farther than me but there's no disputing your results.

Propane has more potential energy in a given unit but it cost more per BTU than natural gas. So, as you demonstrated, even though you must burn more natural gas to obtain the same amount of energy, the initial cost of natural gas is substantially lower than the cost of propane per BTU. And as you pointed out, even though you must burn more natural gas to generate the same amount of energy, it is STILL cheaper than propane in the end.

Well, the idea that propane might be cheaper to burn than natural gas just didn't seem right considering people who have to 500 gal propane tanks tend to be glad when natural gas distribution lines makes it to their area, but I couldn't go with just my gut feeling on the matter. I was originally thinking that the expansion ratio from liquid to gas for propane might be an avenue to pursue, but as I was collecting conversion factors, I realized that I didn't need to go that far and I could just do the comparison on a BTU basis.

You can check your gas utility bill and figure out what you are paying per cu-ft for gas and see how the numbers work out for you. Natural gas (and propane) prices vary by quite a bit around the country.

Personally, I think natural gas might even be a bit more efficient than just the BTU numbers would indicate since I suspect there is a bit more waste of propane with the higher consumption jet type propane burners vs the more gentle banjo type burners normally used for natural gas. My gut feeling is that with the propane jet type burners that a lot of heat gets wasted going up the sides of the pots.

There is a certain visual satisfaction though in taking one of those banjo burners and running it on unregulated propane and watching a 6+ ft afterburner type flame shoot straight up. :)

[triggerhappy243]

I WENT INTO THE PROPANE STORE I BUY FROM AND LOOKED AT THAT BANJO BURNER. NOTHING LIKE WHAT I HAVE. i WILL LOOK FURTHER INTO THE ng IDEA.

[NavyVet1959]

I WENT INTO THE PROPANE STORE I BUY FROM AND LOOKED AT THAT BANJO BURNER. NOTHING LIKE WHAT I HAVE. i WILL LOOK FURTHER INTO THE ng IDEA.

Many of the propane burners out there are more of a single large jet of higher pressure propane. Natural gas burners are typically a large number of smaller jets. Instead of one large jet, you might have 75-100 smaller jets. Natural gas service is very low psi, but that doesn't mean that the *volume* is necessarily low. If you have a large enough pipe leading from the meter to your burner, you can most definitely get the volume up to a point where you can get some *serious* BTUs. For my uses, I've found the a standard shop compressed air hose provides sufficient gas flow for natural gas for smelting. If you are wanting to recover the zinc from your wheelweights, it might take a bit more time -- I've done this once just to see how much zinc I could recover. But for lead, it provides plenty of temperature / BTUs. If it takes a bit longer, no big deal -- I just drink a couple more beers while waiting on it. Besides, I don't like to be rushed, anyway... :)

[triggerhappy243]

Everything i am smelting is 100% zinc free.

[NavyVet1959]

Everything i am smelting is 100% zinc free.

I just toss everything in the pot and skim out the zinc and steel. I start with a pool of just lead in the bottom of the pot though.

Just for curiosity's sake, I took all the steel and zinc that I had skimmed off and tried smelting it down at a higher temperature just to see how much zinc I would get out of it. It wasn't that much, so by that time, most of the cars around here either had lead of steel wheelweights when they had their tires replaced.