Setting up my blackhawks for lead boolits

[Dieseldr99]

I have four Ruger revolvers I am looking to get setup for cast bullets and to accurize as best I can. I have slugged the throats and bore of each and the data as follows,

Ruger new model Blackhawk 6.5" stainless .357 magnum. I have had this one a long time and it has some rounds through it
bore .3580
cylinder
1 .3592
2 .3592
3 .3594
4 .3593
5 .3594
6 .3592

Ruger Bisley Blackhawk 4 5/8" stainless .45 colt new and unfired except for factory
bore .4505
cylinder
1 .4523
2 .4518
3 .4520
4 .4523
5 .4520
6 .4522

Ruger Bisley Blackhawk 4 5/8" stainless .45 colt I have 500 or so rounds through this one.mostly informal plinking
bore .4508
cylinder
1 .4522
2 .4522
3 .4522
4 .4522
5 .4522
6 .4522

Ruger Bisley Old Model Vaquero 4" case colored/blued .45 colt bought used unfired by me.
bore .4513
cylinder
1 .4520
2 .4522
3 .4515
4 .4520
5 .4515
6 .4514

I think these numbers are probably pretty good for out of the box guns. the two stainless .45's probably have a bore restriction?

How would you proceed as far as gunsmithing or any fire lapping etc?

What size should i size my boolits? hopefully I can run the same load/components in all three .45's.
Thanks

[Rodfac]

I size all of my .357 and .38 spl bullets to 0.359"-0.360"; given your .357's cylinder throat dimensions, I'd not do anything to it. Just buy or cast to .359 or greater.

I had my .45 LC New Vaquero's cylinder throats opened up to a uniform 0.4525 by "cylinder smith" back when he was still doing the work. Doug Guy does nice work now, but really, for lead alloy bullets, I'd say all of your .45's look good to go. If you don't have any barrel thread tight groove problems, I wouldn't do anything to them. I will say that running a 100 count box of jacketed bullets through any bore tends to smooth it out some, followed of course by a thorough cleaning if you intend to shoot cast.

My .45 LC's are all sized, throats that is, to 0.4525". I size my bullets to 0.453"+ and get the best results. But I have found that the 200 gr LSWC's that I shoot for target work in my 1911 .45 ACP's, sized 0.452" do equally well in the .45 LC's.

With all of the above, leading is not an issue, even with commercial cast bullets that have that hard, useless blue lube. These, I re-lube with Lees Liquid Alox, thinned 30% with paint thinner, and even the very hard commercial cast's don't lead.

You said you'd measured the "bore" diameters, but really it's groove dia. that matters, after establishing that the cylinder throats are a bit larger...I like 0.001" over myself.

HTH's Rod

[Dieseldr99]

I said bore but the part I measured with a micrometer on the lead sinker after I drove it through the barrel is the portion that was in the grooves. I do believe these .45's have the common bore restriction. I was hoping to fix these issues without sending the guns out. I intend to have them slicked up but at a later date when I have set the funds aside.

[DougGuy]

How are you taking these measurements? With what tools?

[sixshot]

Before I worried about sending them out or fire lapping I would shoot them a bit, maybe using 2-3 different size bullets. I'm guessing you will find that none of them need anything except for a little load development. If you are casting your own (which you should) then you can experiment with different bullet hardness & that can change things up a bit. Also you can buy a couple different sizes to see what works, just don't go with really hard bullets, many people make that mistake & it can cause problems. Usually something in the 8-12 BHN hardness range works for most of us, most of the time. If you really need to wind them up then of course you will need a harder bullet but even a 12 BHN bullet that is the correct fit can be driven very fast.
I'm guessing almost all of us use either a .452" or a .453" size bullet in the 45's & in the 38/357's most will tell you .358"-359", although some guns may vary. Shooting a few rounds will usually tell you in a hurry. If you have some thread restriction you may have to fire lap but I'd sure shoot the guns for a while before I did anything, just my opinion. Bullet fit is #1, bullet hardness X velocity is #2.

Dick

[Dieseldr99]

How are you taking these measurements? With what tools?
I am using soft lead sinkers that have a hole down the middle, I lube them with a little case lube. I drive one through the bore and one each through the cylinder. I them mic them with a micrometer that reads down to .0001.

Edited for spelling and the autocorrect on this phone

[DougGuy]

The only thing I would add is that the most important part of the cylinder is having the throats EVEN. Variations in throat diameter create variations in pressure which of course makes the gun recoil differently in the shooter's hands from shot to shot so you get a little variation in point of impact. You can always size to fit the throats but it's impossible to achieve a consistent fitment with uneven throats.

What you want is to be able to push the boolits through the throats from the front with light finger pressure, and you want them all to have the same amount of light drag against say a boolit that mics at .452" in diameter. This would be the perfect fitment.

[Chill Wills]

Man! I wish my two Blackhawks were anywhere near that good.

[Dieseldr99]

Man! I wish my two Blackhawks were anywhere near that good.
Believe me I was surprised they were that good. I've heard of some that were so off and mismatched that accuracy was very poor.

[Jcduff936]

+1 on lucky draw with your cylinder throats. Mine were very undersized which was resulting in terrible accuracy. Doug Guy fixed that and today I shot my first 6 shot group that was below 4 inches at 25yrds. It measured to right at 2" and that wasn't using anything but my elbow against my knee for a rest. I'm still trying to find the right alloy and powder for this cartridge but at least the gun is correct now.

[bob208]

my first question is how are you guys measuring these throats? to measure to four places takes skill and good tools. I was in tool making for 10 years and can tell you it is not easy to do. also I must live in a strage part of the country but I have never had a ruger that did not shoot right out of the box. I just got one from texas and it shoots good.

[rintinglen]

Well Bob, you've been lucky, although I have to say that it seems to me that there was a spell when Ruger did good, followed by a turn of bad, to today, when they are either really good, or horrible. Since 2010 I have a 44 Sp. Flattop that could hardly be better and a Vaquero that had throats so large I couldn't measure them-you could almost run a 45 colt case in from either end.

[Jcduff936]

I know that it's not the correct way, but I used a set of internal calipers. While my actual readings weren't correct. The fact that the cylinder throats on mine consistently read smaller than the muzzle confirmed the problem. I was simply measuring almost identical sized holes with the same technique and same tool. Another thing that I tried was trying to push a .451 bullet through the cylinder throats. It wasn't even close to going in. Doug Guy correctly measured mine and sent me the results.

My accuracy was great for about 20'. At 15, yards I was seeing 4-6" groups. At 25, I couldn't keep it on a sheet of paper consistently. At 50 yards, I don't know where they were going. This was with Hornady XTP, Noslers JHP, Ranier FP, and several cast boolits. I know for a fact that these will fly straight and are well made projectiles. I tried Titegroup, IMR 4227, and Hi-Skor 800-x. The very best 6 shot group at 25 yards was about 4-5" and I'm pretty sure that it was a fluke. I also tried 4 different factory loads.

I haven't shot anymore jacketed since I got it back and I'm having trouble figuring out 45 colt( I don't handload many handgun rounds). But I am 100% positive that the cylinders were cut way undersized from the factory. I can't begin to tell you how frustrating it is to buy a beautiful gun like the RBH and for it to not shoot as good as an old 25acp. Honestly.

[dubber123]

You should sell me #3 post haste. Looks like a problem child to me ;)

[beezapilot]

Well, this is not an attempt to hijack this thread and if this is inappropriate I'll delete or move it.

I found this thread after a dismal day at the range. I decided to try out the 9mm conversion cylinder in my .357/ .38 Blackhawk. I thought far enough ahead to size my boolits larger than I usually size my 9mm, but accuracy was very poor and thought that perhaps I needed to go up another thou on my sizing of the 9's.

But then there is this throat thing I'm reading about, so I broke out my hole gauges and micrometer. The throats are .3552 at the smallest and .3558 at the largest- so obviously sizing the 9's larger is going to do me little to no good.

Is this the sort of thing that can be reamed out? Or will the larger diameter throat interfere with the head spacing on the 9's? Or is the cylinder more of a novelty in itself and best left on the shelf?

[DougGuy]

Well, this is not an attempt to hijack this thread and if this is inappropriate I'll delete or move it.

I found this thread after a dismal day at the range. I decided to try out the 9mm conversion cylinder in my .357/ .38 Blackhawk. I thought far enough ahead to size my boolits larger than I usually size my 9mm, but accuracy was very poor and thought that perhaps I needed to go up another thou on my sizing of the 9's.

But then there is this throat thing I'm reading about, so I broke out my hole gauges and micrometer. The throats are .3552 at the smallest and .3558 at the largest- so obviously sizing the 9's larger is going to do me little to no good.

Is this the sort of thing that can be reamed out? Or will the larger diameter throat interfere with the head spacing on the 9's? Or is the cylinder more of a novelty in itself and best left on the shelf?

Reaming and honing the throats is the exact way to fix the problems. Boolits will exit the front of the throat at throat diameter so you can size to .358" all day, but you are only putting .3552" worth of boolit into a .357" bore.. I size 35 caliber cylinders at .3585" ~ .3588" and it immediately perks them up. You can still shoot j-words with good accuracy, in fact they may be .356" when you shoot them but due to the inherent high pressure of the 9mm cartridge, and the fact that the j word cores are soft lead swaged into the jacket, they too will tend to "bump up" in the resized throats so they seal in the bore much better than being fired through smaller throats so it's a win win situation either way you look at it. If you'd like to inquire further send me a PM..

[DougGuy]

I have four Ruger revolvers I am looking to get setup for cast bullets and to accurize as best I can. I have slugged the throats and bore of each and the data as follows,

Ruger new model Blackhawk 6.5" stainless .357 magnum. I have had this one a long time and it has some rounds through it
bore .3580
cylinder
1 .3592
2 .3592
3 .3594
4 .3593
5 .3594
6 .3592

Ruger Bisley Blackhawk 4 5/8" stainless .45 colt new and unfired except for factory
bore .4505
cylinder
1 .4523
2 .4518
3 .4520
4 .4523
5 .4520
6 .4522

Ruger Bisley Blackhawk 4 5/8" stainless .45 colt I have 500 or so rounds through this one.mostly informal plinking
bore .4508
cylinder
1 .4522
2 .4522
3 .4522
4 .4522
5 .4522
6 .4522

Ruger Bisley Old Model Vaquero 4" case colored/blued .45 colt bought used unfired by me.
bore .4513
cylinder
1 .4520
2 .4522
3 .4515
4 .4520
5 .4515
6 .4514

I think these numbers are probably pretty good for out of the box guns. the two stainless .45's probably have a bore restriction?

How would you proceed as far as gunsmithing or any fire lapping etc?

What size should i size my boolits? hopefully I can run the same load/components in all three .45's.
Thanks

All of the 45s would shoot the same .451" boolit, you could open up a Lee sizing die to .4515" and squeeze a little better fit out of them but then you have some with larger throats which will produce less pressure than the tighter throats, this introduces a variable into the recoil impulse which causes the gun to recoil differently from shot to shot in the shooter's hands, and it won't shoot to the same point of impact as shots that are fired through the smaller tighter throats.

It really does not matter what the throats are sized to, as long as they are larger than groove diameter of the bore, it matters more, that they are EVEN. Evenly sized throats remove the variable caused by uneven throats, just like weighing every charge at the press when loading ammo.

If you want to use the same boolit, same sizer, same crimp, etc for all the 45 caliber guns, you would optimally like the throats all the same they would need to be sized to the largest throat since they cannot be made smaller.

[johnson1942]

i really have learned a lot from discussions like this. so here is a question? when all these things are done to a single action revolver, and i have done them all of mine, will a round nose lead bullet shoot more accurate than a square nosed bullet? i think you call them kieth nosed? hope this question hasnt been asked before?

[Dieseldr99]

Doug
thanks for you insight on my questions. When I decided to measure the guns it was mostly to make sure they weren't crazy out of spec. After thinking about how cylinder throats of uneven size must also affect accuracy.
is this a task I could address or should I seek professional help? I'm no gunsmith but I am a diesel mechanic by trade so I have that mechanic aptitude and experience to help me.
What little I've studied this from google most people ream them others lap which an adjustable brass lap and compound. What is recommended?

[1bluehorse]

Doug has given very good information. I've had quite a bit of experience with Ruger 45 colts, my own and several friends. When I first became aware of how all this works several years (and 45 colt Rugers) ago, I purchased a set of minus pin gauges and started checking these guns, finding that every one I checked had undersized cylinder throats to some degree, some worse than others but none larger than .450. So I purchased a .452 dia. reamer (clymer I believe) complete with several different size inserts and a handle along with some good cutting oil and got started. The first gun is the hardest... I've since done many of them. Even though the reamer says .452 the cyls all have come out to a "push fit" .4525 bullet, which for me is perfect.

As to the bore, the "older" Rugers ( can't comment to much on newer ones as my latest is the 4.2in Redhawk and it to was the same) all seem to have had some constriction at the barrel frame junction. Being your a diesel mechanic you probably have some pin gauges so find the largest that will start at the muzzle (probably about a .446 pin) and it should go all the way through. If it starts but won't go through you have a restriction "somewhere" or maybe more than one. DON'T FORCE THE PIN ! If this is the case I will highly recommend Marshall's (this site) firelapping kit. It's a good set-up. Read the book that comes with it and follow the instructions. Also under the tech notes there's one that's a very good read called "fire lapping a stainless Ruger in 36 rounds" or to that effect. That is the method I now use for fire lapping and it works. A lot has been written about fire lapping, pro's/con's, but I can tell you this, every one I have done NEVER shot worse, there was always improvement, sometimes dramatic and leading was pretty much or all together eliminated. Nay sayers of the procedure are generally of two camps, those that haven't done it or did it incorrectly. Sorry, long winded post..

[DougGuy]

Doug
thanks for you insight on my questions. When I decided to measure the guns it was mostly to make sure they weren't crazy out of spec. After thinking about how cylinder throats of uneven size must also affect accuracy.
is this a task I could address or should I seek professional help? I'm no gunsmith but I am a diesel mechanic by trade so I have that mechanic aptitude and experience to help me.
What little I've studied this from google most people ream them others lap which an adjustable brass lap and compound. What is recommended?

For use with .452" boolits, the majority of your throats are okay, but you don't have any wiggle room for age hardening where the boolit will grow .0003" ~ .0006" or so as it sits. you want all the throats to be from .0005" to .001" *over* boolit diameter, and you want them all the same size.

I use a Sunnen hone, it's a pin hone made for doing wrist pins and crank journals on connecting rods. I have all the small mandrels and various stones in medium and fine grit including some borazon and diamond stones. It REALLY does throats right. The difference in the reamer and the Acro lap, is that the reamer cuts a really nice straight ROUND hole, but it MUST be very tightly piloted in the throat to assure concentricity with the chamber, reaming and then honing is my preference because not much honing is needed after the reamer to clean up the job and the throat remains really round afterwards. The Acro lap has no pilot, no guide, and it will center itself based on equal resistance so wherever it thinks center is, is where it's going to cut. They are a LOT better than a split dowel with abrasive paper, but still no way to round an oval or belled hole like the Sunnen can. And they won't stay on center like the Sunnen does.

The Sunnen is easy to sneak up on final diameter, although the most time consuming and PITB job is making smaller throats match the one largest throat. Even then I take the largest throat and touch down with the stones to make sure it's round, make sure it's not leaded, and so all of them tend to finish a couple of tenths over what the largest one was before honing.

If you want them all even, the best thing to do is send them all at one time and I can go over them at the same sitting on the Sunnen hone. I can usually turn out convertibles within .0002" of each other across all 12 throats, I don't know that you could quite achieve this with the Acro lap. Closer than what they are now, but maybe not that close.

If I had to do all of yours, I would probably take a 280 or 320 grit stone and get them all even first, then finish off with a 400 then 600 grit stone, and finally hit them with an 800 grit ball hone. The ball hone puts what they call the "plateau hone" finish on there, it makes measuring using pin gages more accurate since if you hone a throat then pin it out, you are really only measuring the tips or the peaks of the microscopic ridges of metal where the fine ball hone tends to knock those down and give a flatter surface finish in the throat.

[44man]

i really have learned a lot from discussions like this. so here is a question? when all these things are done to a single action revolver, and i have done them all of mine, will a round nose lead bullet shoot more accurate than a square nosed bullet? i think you call them kieth nosed? hope this question hasnt been asked before?
No Keith ever shot better then a RN or TC, RNFP. Most don't know revolver accuracy anyway. I have been to 2-1/2" at 500 yards and 1/2" at 100, 3/16" at 50. NO KEITH. It is not the meplat or flat nose, it is the stupid shoulder.

[Texas by God]

No Keith ever shot better then a RN or TC, RNFP. Most don't know revolver accuracy anyway. I have been to 2-1/2" at 500 yards and 1/2" at 100, 3/16" at 50. NO KEITH. It is not the meplat or flat nose, it is the stupid shoulder.
I don't understand this. But tip your waitresses. Best, Thomas.

[44man]

I don't understand this. But tip your waitresses. Best, Thomas.
The shoulder of a Keith will smear off at the cone unless perfect alignment. Now the boolit is off center. Same with a WC. The nose of a Keith is not even a bore ride, it hangs in space. Many say the front band must fit the throats to center but neglect the cone if off a little. It is why play is left in the cylinder so it can move but the boolit ogive has more success then the shoulder.190063 This is load work with a .500 JRH BFR at 50 yards. WFN boolit.
A Freedom .454 that was off. Ate the throats oblong and removed half the cone and ate into rifling. 300 shots of factory loads. I worked on the gun. Left is factory and the right is my cast after my fix. Still not to my standards. I also put some play in the cylinder.

[44man]

The shoulder of a Keith will smear off at the cone unless perfect alignment. Now the boolit is off center. Same with a WC. The nose of a Keith is not even a bore ride, it hangs in space. Many say the front band must fit the throats to center but neglect the cone if off a little. It is why play is left in the cylinder so it can move but the boolit ogive has more success then the shoulder.190063 This is load work with a .500 JRH BFR at 50 yards. WFN boolit.
A Freedom .454 that was off. Ate the throats oblong and removed half the cone and ate into rifling. 300 shots of factory loads. I worked on the gun. Left is factory and the right is my cast after my fix. Still not to my standards. I also put some play in the cylinder.
OOPs forget the .444 round. I hit the button and can't delete the foreskin round my friend made.

[Dieseldr99]

191028I shot about 3 or 400 round of comercial cast bullets today in this Ruger. It is the one with the even cylinder throats at .4522. All of the bullets were Missouri Bullet Company at 12 and 18 brinnell. And sized at .452. From a 200 grain at 600 fps to a 300 grain at 1300. With very little lead residue.