Clever gunsmithing!

[marlinman93]

I'm guessing this is the work of either Parkenfarker, or Bubba. Either way, it's top notch backyard gunsmithing! The objective was (I believe) to make their fine Ballard rifle into a "takedown rifle". How they accomplished that was very unique!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v691/marlinguy/DSCF5322.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/marlinguy/media/DSCF5322.jpg.html)

It's not a great picture, so here's an explanation. Someone removed the lever and breech block halves, and then used a hacksaw to cut down through the bottom of the receiver almost to the threads on the barrel shank! Guessing that at this point the cut was close enough that receiver either split; or they possibly put a wedge in to complete the cut. The threads weren't cut, but bottom of the barrel was nicked where the hacksaw blade hit it while cutting.
I put the barreled action in my barrel vise and using my action wrench I gave it a good tug and it didn't loosen. But after loosening the home built tension screw pulling the cut tightly together, the barrel spun off by hand easily!
A nice special order pistol gripped, forged Ballard! Loop lever and all matching numbers. Now unfortunately nothing but parts if I can't come across a donor receiver, or a talented welder who can repair it. Anyone know somebody who can weld it, or has a forged pistol grip receiver, give me a holler!

[ericp]

Alan Harton is the best welder I know, don't know if he will do work on rifles.


Eric

[DougGuy]

If'n it didn't have a serial number on it I could take it in and TiG weld it..

[M-Tecs]

It's pre 1899 so it's considered a non-firearm. http://rawles.to/Pre-1899_FAQ.html

[DougGuy]

Post some better pics please..

[Gewehr-Guy]

Must have been the same skilled artisan that converted my 32 Ballard into a .410 1/2 Rd half Oct. barrel , with a 7/16 dull bit! Also drilled crooked hole for F-pin.

[marlinman93]

Post some better pics please..

Hard to see anything with pictures. It's just a thin cut through the bottom, right down to the barrel shank threads. Here's another angle, but not sure if it helps either?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v691/marlinguy/DSCF5323.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/marlinguy/media/DSCF5323.jpg.html)

There's also that screw hole you can see the head sticking out the side of the receiver. So it needs filling on both sides, as it passes completely through. I'd guess the cut is so thin it needs to be V out to get better fill on a weld. The receiver is almost 2" wide, and the cut an inch deep in that area below the barrel.
As Mtec mentioned it's an antique "non gun" according to ATF. Last Ballard sold was in 1891.

[marlinman93]

Must have been the same skilled artisan that converted my 32 Ballard into a .410 1/2 Rd half Oct. barrel , with a 7/16 dull bit! Also drilled crooked hole for F-pin.

Some people need to have a license to own hand tools! Especially the crooked firing pin hole! A #2 has a reversible firing pin, so no reason to even change the pin hole! RF/CF all in one.

[frkelly74]

A hack saw is a dangerous thing in the wrong hands. But a Dremel is much worse.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

189447

Am I imagining that the slot isn't quite central or straight? It isn't much worse than the takedown system of the Greener GP action, which people have successfully built into rifles which work with modern .45-70 smokeless loads. The only real difference is that the screw on this Ballard isn't as far from the barrel, and will therefore exert less leverage in tightening up. If the receiver limitations don't put you worse off than the breechblock limitations, what difference does it make?

If I wanted to put it back to solid-bridge, I would silver solder a piece of sheet steel in the slot, using Brownells 355 silver solder, which comes in thin ribbons. I don't think you would really need to do any special blackening of the solder lines when you have blued it. I have a 24ga shotgun which is in as near mint condition as you dare expect in a 1926 gun, and I think the reason is that an Australian got it home before he realised that 20ga shells wouldn't fit. There is a silver-inlaid "24" at the rear of the barrel rib, but it had tarnished to be indistinguishable through ordinary atmosphere and handling.

[waksupi]

A hack saw is a dangerous thing in the wrong hands. But a Dremel is much worse.

Amen! My first advice to aspiring gunsmiths, if you own a Dremel, the first thing to do it to carry is to the door, and throw it as far as you can. They have VERY limited use in gun work. Shortening screws and pins is about it.

Also, if you insist on doing a project, always file or grind on the cheapest part to replace.

[pietro]

.


I can understand the desire to repair it, Vall, but I think that I'd just leave it/shoot it, as-is - IMO, because the split runs through the SN, AND the split gives it "character".

I might, however, make/install a takedown screw with a fancier knurled head, similar to the Martine Model 12 takedown's.

It'd be nice to know/hear the back story on it.


.

[Soundguy]

Any chance it was a split that was bubba cleaned up and repaired. IE, a crack that was cut then pinned ( bolted? )

[Bent Ramrod]

In the Good Old Days, a takedown feature was very desirable. The streetcars used to run to the gun ranges and having something that fit into a short case that didn't intrude into the other passengers' space was thought of as good manners.

Grant mentioned in one of his books that he used to encounter Scheutzen Ballards with an aftermarket tapered cross pin fitted to secure the barrel, which presumably was dressed down for screwing in by hand. This "ruined" their collector value, but, as he mentioned, if it had been rebarreled by a famous maker, you couldn't exactly say that it was a "butchered" gun. In those days, it might have been out of production, but it was either a shooter or useless. "Collector value" hadn't been invented yet.

If it was mine, I'd leave the feature as-is and make a fancy-schmancy .22 rimfire target rifle out of it. Find a Leg-O-Mutton carrying case and enjoy the other shooters' envious interest as you studiously screw the barrel home on the Line.

There have been threads on the dubiousness of welded-up Low Walls, especially in terms of their eventual sale to others. I would think a similarly done up Ballard would be looked at askance, too.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I've seen a lot of Bubba's work, and I think this is one of his jobs. The crooked hacksaw cut gives it away. Parkenfarker would have used a power tool. The cut would have been wider, straighter, and cut into the bore. ;)

What do you want to do with this receiver? Do you want to repair and use it? I do not believe that welding is the answer. The cut is too deep, too narrow, and too crooked. True, a TIG or MIG could seal the exterior of the cut and might penetrate in a bit, but you'll never succeed in filling the entire cut with weld. Inside will be an unfilled area in which rust can eat away from the inside.

I think, were the problem mine, which thankfully it is not, I would brass braze the cut. The advantages are that braze flows and fills all of the voids. Braze is extremely strong. Should you find it desirable to re-heat treat the receiver after the repair, the braze will withstand the heat treatment.
The only disadvantage to the braze repair would be the visibility of the color of the repair. But, since the receiver is no longer a collector's item you could use one of the modern paint-type finishes and that should hide it.

How to go about it -- you would have to re-install the cross screw and tighten it to the correct location for screwing in the barrel properly. The cut would have to be brazed with the screw in place and the screw would then be immoveable. That could be hidden by grinding the head down a bit with a Dremel pointed stone and then filling the hole with a little weld. Grind and polish that off and that would also be just about invisible.

How strong is a brass braze? I've included a couple of photos. I had to make these many years ago in gunsmithing school's welding shop as an educational exercise, and I've always wondered why I saved them. I guess this post was the reason. These pieces of steel were brazed at 90 degrees to each other and then bent over with a hammer to illustrate the strength of the joint. Henry Repeating Firearms uses a bronze/brass receiver, and claims its strength to be superior to steel. In the case of these samples the area of the joint was heated cherry red. Flux was applied to the right side and the brazing rod to the left side, and the flux sucked the braze under the vertical piece and created the joint. Your receiver would have to be repaired in much the same manner, flux pulling the braze into the cut. Sorry the photos are a bit out of focus--but you can get the idea.

189468189469

[marlinman93]

189447

Am I imagining that the slot isn't quite central or straight? It isn't much worse than the takedown system of the Greener GP action, which people have successfully built into rifles which work with modern .45-70 smokeless loads. The only real difference is that the screw on this Ballard isn't as far from the barrel, and will therefore exert less leverage in tightening up. If the receiver limitations don't put you worse off than the breechblock limitations, what difference does it make?

If I wanted to put it back to solid-bridge, I would silver solder a piece of sheet steel in the slot, using Brownells 355 silver solder, which comes in thin ribbons. I don't think you would really need to do any special blackening of the solder lines when you have blued it. I have a 24ga shotgun which is in as near mint condition as you dare expect in a 1926 gun, and I think the reason is that an Australian got it home before he realised that 20ga shells wouldn't fit. There is a silver-inlaid "24" at the rear of the barrel rib, but it had tarnished to be indistinguishable through ordinary atmosphere and handling.

Your Greener is exactly what this gun looks like! Except I'm guessing whoever did this gun may not have used a hacksaw after all, as the cut is so thin! I can put two thicknesses of notebook paper in the cut, but 3 thicknesses wont fit. Guessing they may have used a jeweler's saw to make the cut. But it is indeed not perfectly straight, but not far off.
Thanks for that picture! I've never seen that type of takedown system, and it makes me feel a bit more comfortable about my options.

[marlinman93]

Any chance it was a split that was bubba cleaned up and repaired. IE, a crack that was cut then pinned ( bolted? )

No, as the barrel still matches the gun's serial number and is in perfect shape. I can also see right at the receiver where they nicked the barrel while making the cut, so it was in place during the process. Gorgeous bore in .32-40, and strong rifling.

[marlinman93]

Many of those pinned barrels back then were cross pinned and the end of the pin was used as an anchor point for a breech seating tool. I have a Schoyen Ballard and a Zettler Bros. Ballard that both have pinned barrels with a head to hook a breech seater on. As you mentioned, if it's done by someone highly respected it wont hurt the gun's value. But those are also done to not hurt the gun's structural integrity.

[marlinman93]

.


I can understand the desire to repair it, Vall, but I think that I'd just leave it/shoot it, as-is - IMO, because the split runs through the SN, AND the split gives it "character".

I might, however, make/install a takedown screw with a fancier knurled head, similar to the Martine Model 12 takedown's.

It'd be nice to know/hear the back story on it.


.

With the stock being modified to change it from the Ballard small Swiss buttplate to a hard rubber, my guess is someone wanted to make it a hunting rifle. The takedown feature was part of this I believe to make it smaller to pack out to the field on a coach or train.

Here's what it looks like. The top 1/3 of the stock was spliced in to change it to the flat buttplate:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v691/marlinguy/DSCF5332.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/marlinguy/media/DSCF5332.jpg.html)

[marlinman93]

Amen! My first advice to aspiring gunsmiths, if you own a Dremel, the first thing to do it to carry is to the door, and throw it as far as you can. They have VERY limited use in gun work. Shortening screws and pins is about it.

Also, if you insist on doing a project, always file or grind on the cheapest part to replace.

I have a Dremel with flex shaft hanging above my gunsmithing bench all the time. But as you say, one needs to be selective as to what it's used for. I use it often with a thin parting disc to recut screw slots that are buggered. It's a valuable tool to me, but not for the amateur who doesn't know how to control it.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The way to make thin, straight and smooth hacksaw cut is to use a belt sander to remove the ondulations a normal hacksaw blade has, to reduce friction and binding. A lubricant (beeswax being fine as the blade heats up) is useful to reduce friction and binding. You can go a long lifetime without needing it for this job, but it is very useful for making V-springs from the solid.

The stresses in a forged, possibly case-hardened and frequently stressed receiver ring are too complicated for me. If the threads were loose, or loosened to make an easier takedown, the cut may have sprung a bit narrower as it was completed. If I really felt compelled to reduce threads slightly in those circumstances (a choice of phrase I hope suggests reluctance), I would plug the chamber, mask the rest of the rear of the barrel with wax or paint, and etch it slightly with 15% nitric acid.

Brazing can be just as good as Der Gebirgsjager says. It was used to joint the barrels and underlugs of double shotguns, and most of the big-game double rifles in existence, including some that would clear your sinuses. It will indeed follow the flux into the joint. But it takes a high temperature, and overdoing it only slightly is enough to burn the steel or roughen the surface texture. So there is a good argument for silver solder, which took over for this job about the 1940s. It might fill the narrow joint you describe by capillary action, or you might need to solder steel sheet in there.

A potential source of trouble would be solder or brazing metal running into the V-threads. If it is an action for which a tap exists, that would clean them up nicely. If not, my "come in handy someday" shelves include some fireclay, and you could mouid a complete part of the receiver thread and rotate it to cover the slot.

[marlinman93]

Considering the way the cut was made, and the opening someone had to work through when cutting the Ballard receiver, I doubt it was a hacksaw. If it was the person cutting would be making 2" strokes to work his way through. But since I can also see the cut into the tulip of the barrel where it mates against the receiver, I can see how narrow the cut was, and a hacksaw wont cut that thin. Guessing it was a jeweler's saw, and that is even harder to keep a straight cut with the thin blade and box type saw shape a jeweler's saw has.
I'm not excited about heating the receiver for brazing or silver solder, as once done neither could ever be finished by anything but rust bluing, as heat of CCH would remove the solder or brazing. If it can't be welded by Tig I'll likely leave it alone, or hope to find a proper original receiver.
I actually like the Greener takedown shown, and am considering maybe making up a takedown lever screw that would not be taken down, but would look better. I have no reason to takedown any guns, as I'm not traveling on a train or stagecoach.

[marlinman93]

Ran into an old gunsmith friend of mine at the gun show today. I asked him about the abused Ballard and he said he'd Tig weld it without a worry. I asked if he'd open up the narrow cut or how he'd do it. He said, "It's a forged steel action, and no reason to worry about getting a deep weld. He said he'd leave the 1/4-28 screw in there and tig weld over the head and end of the screw on both sides. Then weld the crack up, and polish it all out.
Didn't have the Ballard with me, so I'm going to take it the 90 miles to his shop soon and let him look it over first. If he thinks it can be repaired I'll leave it with him.

[M-Tecs]

The 1/4-28 screw will be plated or coated and possibly higher carbon than the action. If it was mine I would not use the current screw. Rod selection will be import for bluing match or color case. With tig welding you have so much control I don't see the point to not doing it properly.

Again if it were mine I would 100% weld. Since the cut is into the thread crest threading a carbon rod to use as a thread protector would be recommended.

[DougGuy]

Nahh the 'smith is correct. There will never be enough stress placed against a good TiG weld to cause it to fail. I did a LOt of x-ray welding, where we did full penetration welds on near 100% of what we worked on, did a LOT of high pressure pipe, this stuff you need full penetration, you want to look inside and see the root all nice and tied it good, but let's face it. It isn't a belted magnum. It isn't even a 44 magnum or a 357 magnum. Grinding a bevel into the split and filling it with carbon steel TiG wire will sew it up as good as it will ever need to be done. Best have the barrel where you want it, because the weld shrinkage as it cools will cinch the receiver down on the barrel threads just like a tension screw but on steroids.. If he's really good he can make a small punch and re-impress the damaged part of the serial number back in.

[M-Tecs]

The issue isn't if it will fail it's craftsmanship or the lack there of. Each to his own but if it were mine it would not be done that way. If we want to talk Bona Fides I first certified in high pressure pipe welding in 1978. I certified as an aircraft welder in 1987 for all positions with tig. I still maintain that. Since 2007 have been in charge of an NDI/NDT shop along with a machine shop and welding shop in the aircraft industry. My base training is as a tool maker.

Having welded on items that have been color cased or needed to have the bluing match a little foresight prevents future issues.

If the action failing it the only criteria the OP can leave it as is.

[DougGuy]

I can fully respect the credentials, my fingerprints are somewhere in the Pentagon for welding steam pipe in the engine room of a guided missle cruiser, I welded on the hull of ol Sinkin' Sara, I did pressure vessel shops which are basically the same as circle N work, so hats off to you for the road traveled, been there done that too..

To make 100% weld on this, you would have to open up a groove wide enough to get a tungsten down far enough to root it where you could then connect to that root from the back side as well. This would almost be way more metal removed then replaced, then you would have to rethread for the barrel, too much heat, too much drawing of the steel from welding, which IMHO is more than what is needed. We are talking about repairing this, not re-engineering and re-producing it with weld metal.

[M-Tecs]

020" tungsten electrodes along with proper preheat eliminates most of the issues you are concerned about. Plating/coating/carbon content of 1/4" x 28 screw would be my biggest concern. Next would be rod selection. Most smiths tend to like high nickel rods and they don't color case or blue for squat.

[DougGuy]

020" tungsten electrodes along with proper preheat eliminates most of the issues you are concerned about.

Now I KNOW you ain't no welder. 1/16" tungsten would BARELY carry enough amps to support a 3/4" stub length which is what you would need sitting proud of the cup to reach in there and you talking about .020"? I'm sorrry, i'm laughing.. Might tell this to one of your space age buddies but I done spent too many years behind a hood to carry on any further with this one.. Go tell this stuff to somebody that don't know any better.

[M-Tecs]

Now I KNOW you ain't no welder. 1/16" tungsten would BARELY carry enough amps to support a 3/4" stub length which is what you would need sitting proud of the cup to reach in there and you talking about .020"? I'm sorrry, i'm laughing.. Might tell this to one of your space age buddies but I done spent too many years behind a hood to carry on any further with this one.. Go tell this stuff to somebody that don't know any better.

You may want to expand your knowledge base some. If YOU know what you are going you can do some amazing repairs with very little heat transfer using 020" and 040" electrodes. Before I was doing it on aircraft parts I was doing it on very high dollar molds.

[marlinman93]

Well I'm no certified welder, but I do respect those who do it well. I also respect the opinion of my gunsmith friend, as he's mid 70's and grew up tutoring under his father who was a very talented gunsmith also.
As for welding showing under bluing or CCH, I do have experience with that. I've had holes filled in receivers that I had CCH later, and CCH wont show differences in metallurgy. I've had John Taylor extend barrels using round bar stock, and shape it to match the octagon barrel. He welded the piece on ad welded up the old sight dovetail also. If it was hot blued it might show, but rust bluing does not show differences. I had Al Springer rust blue and CCH a sad Schoyen Ballard I repaired last summer also. 4 dovetail fillers and 6 extra holes in the barrel. When he finished rust bluing the barrel, and CCH the parts there's no color difference in the fillers.
The screw will be below surface level, so the Tig weld will be the surface filler above it. What is underneath wont affect the CCH (if I do it) so it's better to have a strong screw, and not a soft metal screw.
I'm a hobby gunsmith, with just one year of schooling in the trade, so there are tasks I wont attempt. Same for my welding. I have training, but no certifications, and I own Mig and oxy-acetylene setups. I leave stuff like this to experts, so I'll do the same this time. I trust the few gunsmiths I use a lot! If they didn't feel it was safe and looked proper, none of them would even consider doing it.

[Texas by God]

Amen! My first advice to aspiring gunsmiths, if you own a Dremel, the first thing to do it to carry is to the door, and throw it as far as you can. They have VERY limited use in gun work. Shortening screws and pins is about it.

Also, if you insist on doing a project, always file or grind on the cheapest part to replace.
Sage advice! As I was taught- "modify the $5 part, not the $500 part!"
Best,Thomas.

[finstr]

If this were mine I would not weld it. I would however remove the barrel and put the empty receiver into the mill vice and make a very neat thin slot to clean up the cut. Make it look like the other one pictured. Then i would either countersink or counter bore the bolt hole for either a flathead or socket head cap screw depending on how much meat you have to work with. Then I'd clean the barrel mark up. Re-assemble with red loc-tite and just shoot the thing until there's no life left in it. It might last only another 100 years or so.

[marlinman93]

If this were mine I would not weld it. I would however remove the barrel and put the empty receiver into the mill vice and make a very neat thin slot to clean up the cut. Make it look like the other one pictured. Then i would either countersink or counter bore the bolt hole for either a flathead or socket head cap screw depending on how much meat you have to work with. Then I'd clean the barrel mark up. Re-assemble with red loc-tite and just shoot the thing until there's no life left in it. It might last only another 100 years or so.

I have seriously considered having the cut cleaned up to widen it just enough to eliminate the ugly canted cut, but not a lot deeper. If I do that, then I will build a lever like the Greener Martini uses, so it appears to be a proper takedown lever, and not just a screw head. No socket head cap screws in my old guns though, as they look much too modern for an old gun!