Problem with Universal powder in 45 colt RBH

[Jcduff936]

I'm having a problem with finding the right load for my 45 colt Ruger Blackhawk. I was having a problem with accuracy and leading. I just got my cylinder back from Doug Guy ( who did a wonderful job of cleaning up the chamber and reaming the cylinder to the correct size) and decided to go try a few rounds through it. I fired 18 shots, six with 7.0 gr, six with 7.8 gr, six with 8.0 gr of Universal powder with a CCI 300 primer and a 255RF from my Lee mold. Velocity was 856, 920, and 975 respectively.

The problem that I'm confused about is that it's leading terribly. I'm using 45-45-10 lube but I added more mineral spirits and sprayed it on with two coats. The cylinders are no longer leading but there is lead around the forcing cone and a little in the barrel. There's also lead across the top strap. This is what really has me stumped. The forcing cone and barrel appears slick as glass. I'm thinking that it is being caused by something strange happening with the powder burn on the base of the bullet. My experience is very very limited in the use of cast but I didn't notice this with the loads of Titegroup.

I'm not sure why but my can(new) of Hodgdon Universal doesn't mention Clay technology like all the others that I have seen. Not sure what that's about. Anyway, thanks for any insight that you might have.

[35remington]

Given it is one of the most position sensitive powders extant, I would suggest something else in the way of powder anyway. Kill two birds with one stone.

Investigate the dimensionality of your cylinder throats and forcing cone.

[Larry Gibson]

All 45-45-10 is not created equally. You have a lube problem. If you have any LLA left I suggest you try/use it as per Lee's instructions.

Larry Gibson

[Jcduff936]

I wasn't aware that Universal was all that position sensitive so thanks. As for the lube problem, it doesn't really explain the lead across the top strap does it? I didn't have any leading with these loads out of my Marlin 1894 CB.

I'm wondering if I might need a heavier crimp. Not sure if that would help. First, I'll go back to the Titegroup and see if the condition continues. If not, then it is definitely the powder. If so, then I'll try some different bullets and see what happens.

Anyone else have a theory?

[Sakoluvr]

Did DougGuy work on the forcing cone? What BHN are you running. .452 throats? What size boolits.

[Jcduff936]

No, I was only able to send the cylinder. It appears to me that the leading is between the cylinder and forcing cone. I'm not seeing leading in the throats, just across the strap and start of the forcing cone, then a small amount at the end of the muzzle. I'm not sure about the exact BHN, but it's about the same as the SWC that I purchased that are supposed to be made from hardball at 15bhn. I put them together in a vice and they both crushed. I'm not sure that the hardness is the problem. I might try the same load with the SWC but I don't look forward to the cleanup. PITA using chore boy pads.

I'm new to casting so I'm trying to figure things out. I water dropped these because I was trying to prevent the damages I was getting trying to air-cool them. I'm rethinking my alloy make-up because I'm liking the ease of WDing but I don't think that I need the extra hardness.

Thanks

[35remington]

Try not water dropping them. In regard to my dimensionality comment, I am presuming bullets fit chamber throats?

[Jcduff936]

I just remeasure them and tried several in the throats by hand. They were previously sized at .452 but now measure at .4525 to .453. a little tight but I believe I've heard some others using .454 in the .4525 throat without any issues. Maybe I'm wrong.

On second thought, it might be the post sizing lube causing the slight increase in diameter. Thanks for your help and keep it coming guys.

[Sakoluvr]

I don't know much about this stuff but I am approaching this from a logical order. It was leading before you had the throats opened and less than stellar accuracy.

You had the throats opened and accuracy improved but still having a leading problem.

I would look at your bullets hardness, lube etc. Size should be fine.

I would look at the forcing cone.

[Jcduff936]

I tried another 18 rounds today but these were loaded with 6.5 gr of Titegroup. Which should be a little over the standard pressure level. I used the same boolits with the same lube. The only difference was the powder used. It should have even been about the same pressure level. The accuracy improved a bit but it was a bit more smokey. The cases were much cleaner outside but as for the problem with the leading, it appears to have had no effect on the problem. I'm thinking about trying to up the pressure to see if it has any effect. As I said, it appears to be vaporizing the lead in the throat and forcing cone area but then it seals off and rides clean down the barrel. As for the little bit of leading at the muzzle, I'm thinking that this is because the lube has been used up or overheated because of the initial blowby and there's not enough for the full 7 1/2" barrel. It still baffles me that I didn't notice this in my Marlin but the different chamber dimension might have helped.

I don't have any information on using Universal in Tier 2 loads so I'm not really comfortable just raising the charges with it. Hodgdon does have info for Titegroup in the standard and Ruger only loads so I may try that. I'm also going to try the softer cast boolits as soon as the lube dries. This is interesting to me and I am definitely learning a lot in this endeavor. I'll keep everyone posted and thanks for the help.

[Jcduff936]

I just got through cleaning up the BH and would like to make a correction to my last comment. There was leading present but it was considerably less with the Titegroup loads compared to the Universal loads. Tomorrow, I plan on trying some Titegroup with a softer CBs. If I have time a might try some IMR4227 with the harder ones. I'm also going to try Titegroup with some BB SWCs that were made with hardball (commercial) and see what happens.

[Tackleberry41]

I was working up a load other day in 45 colt. Im using the NOE 250gr. I went thru the book trying different powders to find one I liked. Universal is really not very good in a 45 colt. I tried titegroup, unique, true blue, 800x, trailboss, blue dot, and 5744.

I went with 5744. It gave the best velocity and most consistent velocity. Im using the ammo in a 1858 conversion cyl. I had the 5744 on the shelf, just never used it. Figured I would try it. NOE 250gr RF bullet, tumble lubed, sized .452, OAL 1.575". 17.6gr, min load, was 843fps w an ES of only 3.23fps.

[USSR]

I just remeasure them and tried several in the throats by hand. They were previously sized at .452 but now measure at .4525 to .453. a little tight but I believe I've heard some others using .454 in the .4525 throat without any issues. Maybe I'm wrong.

On second thought, it might be the post sizing lube causing the slight increase in diameter. Thanks for your help and keep it coming guys.

I run .455" size bullets thru my S&W 25-5 which has large throats, and there is no problem with the barrel sizing them down to .452".

Don

[Jcduff936]

Tackleberry41, thanks for the advice on powder. I've read on here that many claim Universal to be as good as Unique and even that it is to be loaded gr for gr. I'm not seeing that at all. I'm getting similar velocity with less Universal then others claim with Unique. I don't have Unique so I can't be sure. Universal is very dirty compared to the Titegroup. I'm going to a gunshow tomorrow to try to find TinStar. It appears to be designed for this particular application. I'll keep my eye out for some 5744. Honestly, I've never bought so many different powders for all the other cartridges combined as I have for the 45 colt. Thanks again.

USSR, I don't think that size is my problem either. I shoot .310 in a .308 barrel, Laser-Cast and Jacketed, never had an issue with it.

I'm going to figure this thing out but it seems that it's going to take a bit more trial and error than I had originally anticipated. It seems that Shooters want a softer alloy for the low pressure loads but almost everything I find commercially available is 15-23 BHN. Makes absolutely no sense to me. Thanks again for everyone's help.

[USSR]

It seems that Shooters want a softer alloy for the low pressure loads but almost everything I find commercially available is 15-23 BHN. Makes absolutely no sense to me.

Yep. Couple reasons for that: First, antimony is cheap, tin is expensive. And, super hard (high antimony) bullets and the hard lube they use hold up well during shipping. With casting your own, you control these factors.

Don

[Jcduff936]

Well, I tried the softer cast boolits lubed with 45-45-10 loaded with 6.2 gr of Titegroup. There was a little less lead at the forcing cone, but this time there was heavy leading from one end to the other with some pealing up at the muzzle. This was with another 18 rounds. There's so many people using the 45-45-10 lube that it's hard for me to imagine that it's a lube problem, but I obviously don't know what's causing it.

I'm going to have to order more chore boy pads because no one carries it locally. I'm going to try the SWCs tomorrow if the weather cooperates. We'll see.

[USSR]

Jcduff936,

Another possibility: http://rugerforum.net/gunsmithing/67963-barrel-constriction.html
(http://rugerforum.net/gunsmithing/67963-barrel-constriction.html)
Don

[Jcduff936]

I went to a gun show and a couple of gun shops looking for TinStar and 5744 powder. I couldn't find either one but while I was driving, I was thinking and decided to stop by a Harbor Freight on the way home. I had tried powder coating before but I was using the tumble method and things weren't going the way I wanted. First batch was decent but I heated them for the second and got them too hot. When I dumped them in the powder and started to shake them, they turned into a big red clump and I had heck getting the lead out of that mess.

I got more PC and a PC gun this time and casted up a new batch of boolits. I water dropped them because, IMO, it's faster and easier to prevent damaging them upon the drop. I'm new to casting so I'm probably doing something wrong. Maybe dropping them too fast. IDK.
I set everything up and stacked the boolits on a tray nose down so that the bases would be covered. Sprayed them down and baked them. These turned out extremely well and you can't get the coating of them even when you smash them to the thickness of a nickel. I'll get back to trying to figure out the lube issue but hopefully the PC will get me out of the habit of cleaning the BH after every few shots. Thanks for all of the help. I'll return the favor one day if I can.

[Pb Burner]

Please let us know the results and what you think after trying the PC'd boolits. Also, water dropping most likely made the boolits harder(depending on alloy?), and from reading the other posts I was thinking you would maybe want a softer boolit.
Good luck!

[w5pv]

I have shot many rounds of 45C with Ben's Red and no leading

[C. Latch]

1) Stop water-dropping your bullets. You don't need hard bullets. You can shoot pure lead at those speeds and pressures with no leading whatsoever. As a matter of fact, I'd expect you to have better success with pure lead than really hard lead at your speeds and pressures.

2) Have you slugged the entire barrel? I'm guessing that you have some frame choke; when you push a hard bullet through a constriction, it sizes the bullet down, then there's not enough pressure to obturate it again in the looser part of the barrel, especially with your fast powders, so you get blowby and leading.

3) I'd size my bullets down to slip through the cylinder throats, i.e. .4525 or smaller.

4) Tin Star is an excellent powder for your application, but it's expensive. I found that 9.6 grains behind that same Lee 452-255-rf gave ~990' MV and the best accuracy of any load I've used in my blackhawk.

Ruger Blackhawks are hands-down the coolest revolver design in history, but their execution is lacking. If I didn't have to deal with the headache associated with shipping, I'd have DougGuy do a taylor-throat job on mine. I lapped the frame choke out of mine, but it took forever and I'd still rather have the taylor throat.

[rockrat]

Try boolits sized to cyl throat dimensions, then .001" over and then .002" over and see what happens. I have a FA that does OK with cyl throat boolits, but gets better with .0005" over and really likes .0015" over throat size. Can't try any larger as I can't chamber a round with a boolit any larger.
Almost sounds like your boolits are a bit undersize and you might be getting some gas cutting of the boolit.

[Tackleberry41]

With standard pressure 45 colt, there is little need to go to alot of effort on lube or PC. I just used thinned alox in my conversion cyl. I have found in the colt I get slightly lower velocity w PC bullets as they go down the barrel easier so less pressure. Other calibers it doesn't seem to make much difference, might be the low pressure of the colt.

The harbor freight stuff does not work so well with tumble coating, and should be no need to do 2 coats.

5744 aint cheap, I asked about ordering some at the shop near me $39.99 per lbs. I really like it in the colt, but takes almost 3 times other powders.

Im running .452 in my conversion, the NOE expanders make a world of difference.

[Herb3]

I've had great results with Universal and my 7 1/2 Blackhawk in .45 Colt. I use an Accurate Molds 45-260K sized to .452, lubed with White Label BAC and 7.3 gr of Universal. I cast these with range scrape that runs about 11-12 brinell.

I get zero leading with this combination.

[Jcduff936]

I shot 30 PCed boolits yesterday pushed by some Trailboss. The bore was very clean so I tried 15 rounds of the SWC from Straight Shooters and there's a little lead in the cone and a little more towards the muzzle. I fired one of the PC boolits at a fiberglass backstop( old boat) and got complete expansion even with a light TB load so I would say that they're soft. I'm starting to think that they might need more pressure but I am also thinking that I might have a bit of barrel restriction. Either way, I've shot PC pushed with TB and Titegroup and both were squeaky clean. The WD boolits are quick and easy to cast for me and will soften up during the PC process but can also be WD straight out of the oven to keep them hard. I'm not sure how hard they are but still harder. And the recovered flattened boolit still had the PC covering it. Also, the Lee 45-255RF has a wide flat nose so I can PC nose down to cover the base and they look awesome. Hopefully, I can get pics soon. Still plenty of testing as I want more velocity from my load than I can get with TB. Titegroup can be pushed hard according to Hodgdon's website but it is very fast and could be triple charged or more accidentally. I am not worried about doing that but I don't expect best accuracy with so much empty case. I might try Universal with PC soft and see how they do. They might need a bit more than standard pressure but we'll see.