Help With A Pistol

[okshooter]

I am trying to help a friend with a cap and ball pistol. We have no paperwork on the gun. It is marked 44 cal.; made in Italy and Navy Arms, s/n 0567xx.

First, can anyone tell us who the manufacturer was, or how to find out and how old it might be? My searches have not been productive.

Second, the real problem: Improper cleaning has left the cylinder bound up/stuck to the rod it rotates on and it can only be brought to half cock. That rod is also stuck in the gun. It is currently soaking in PB Blaster and Kroil. Efforts with a brass drift to move the cylinder pin have not been successful thus far.

Thanks!

[Outpost75]

A photo would help to identify which model you have.

[Harter66]

There's lots of good information in this link .
http://gunslingersgulch.com/index.php?board=28.0
It's a beer buddy after hours kind of place language slips a lot when Poli ticks are involved , otherwise a great place .
There was just some conversation . I'm thinking ASM was the supplier of the early guns for Navy and Euro Arms . They all are under Beretta now . If it is marked made in Italy odds favor Pietta .

I've had a go around with stuck base pins . I've not had a frozen cylinder on one yet .

[NC_JEFF]

That doesn't sound like a Pietta. My Pietta cylinder rod does not come out. After removing the barrel wedge the loading ram easily removes the barrel from the rod then the cylinder just slips right off. It takes only a small amount of corrosion to stick that cylinder and the kroil should remedy that. If the cleaning was neglected that much I suspect the cylinder paw and most other parts on the action are corroded just as much. But if the rod the cylinder rotates on removes with a drift pin it's a different Pietta than mine or maybe I just didn't know it comes out. lol. Good luck with the revolver, I think after a kroil soak I'd disassemble the gun anyway. Even if it took great effort.
How does the main spring look?

[Harter66]

Umm. I presumed Rem 1858 ,it seems Jed presumed 1860 Colts . Very different setups .

[Hellgate]

First of all, is it a Remington style or Colt style?

[okshooter]

First of all, is it a Remington style or Colt style?

I forgot to mention this in the original post. I believe this is a Remington style based on what I was able to look at in the way of my searches. I am not very familiar with these guns and they are quite different from the Ruger Old Army.
Late reply since I went to Ash Wednesday services this evening.
189410Thanks to all!
I have not attempted any disassembly.

[retread]

Looks like my Lyman that I bought in the late seventies.

[M-Tecs]

http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/threads/navy-arms-co-1858-new-army.121789/

\http://www.gunpartscorp.com/Manufacturers/NavyArms-33410/BlackPowderRevolvers-43446/1858NewArmyNavy-37554.htm?page=1

[okshooter]

The only other markings I find are a square with AF inside and a shield/coat of arms symbol with PN below that.

[Harter66]

Pietta 1858 Army . The PN and crest are Pietta marks the AF is the date code for 1980 .
The base pin can be leveraged to move it without damage . It is a T shaped pin . The T is across the width of the frame . They also can and do flex and get stuck that way also . Lift it out , bump it back , bump the cylinder left , right , quarters . Repeat until you can move the cylinder far enough to get the hammer to the halfcock . From there you can get the cylinder moving both ways . It takes about a half inch of movement to get the base pin out , those are fairly cheap as needed . I would avoid trying to remove the base pin by driving it out from the rear of the frame .
Mine is a brasser and was very unloved when I received it . Twice I've had to drive mine out once after I got it and another before I figured out how to keep it free .

[bob208]

did you lower the loading leaver ? then try to push the pin out.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

To know the manufacturer for parts, you could always ask Navy Arms. A lot of theirs were made by Pietta, but you can't count on no changes over the years. Numrich Gunparts have Navy Arms and Pietta 1858 parts which in some cases have part numbers differing only by a letter suffix.

http://www.navyarms.com/History.php

https://www.gunpartscorp.com/Manufacturers/NavyArms-33410/BlackPowderRevolvers-43446/1858NewArmyNavy-37554.htm

Although I believe that 1980 date code, it would be advisable to quote the serial number to Navy Arms as well. There may be some parts interchangeability with Uberti, notably the Remington axis pin, which in your situation is a very fortunate simplification over the Colt. If the original was ¼in., why wouldn't anybody make it either that or 6.5mm.? It wouldn't be hard to make a replacement for that part with drill rod.

Remingtons were notorious for jamming due to fouling between cylinder and axis pin, even before it got time to cause rusting. Are you sure it is seized in both cylinder and frame? It might seem that way if it was only one. I can't see any harm in trying a hammer and brass punch on the rear of the axis pin, if you can get the hammer out to expose it. Another possibility would be to make an elongated steel stirrup with hooks to fit over the ears of the axis pin, clamp it there with a small G-clamp, and pull at the other end of the stirrup with a lever bearing on the muzzle.

That PN mark may be a Pietta one I haven't seen, but I would have expected FP, for Fratelli Pietta. If the crest is a star in a circle it would be a proofmark for polvore nera, i.e. black powder.

[Harter66]

This is a 1999 Pietta
189570
189571
This is a 2005 Pietta
189572
Both from my stash and I have to correct myself the PN is a proof mark seen here on an ASM 1850 2nd model Dragoon.
189573

Good luck .

[okshooter]

First of all, thanks for all the replies.
I spoke with a very nice lady who answered the Navy Arms phone. A little info according to her: the "old" Navy Arms closed 2001; no parts available ( referenced VTI Gun Parts, 860-435-8068.
She said the revolver is a Pietta, mfg. 1980 per the AF stamp. PN is pelegro(sp?) negro, Italian for black powder.

The gun has now had heavy doses of PB Blaster and Kroil for 48+ hours. I have always been able to lower the loading lever and/or bring the hammer to half cock. What little movement of the cylinder ( a fraction of a fraction.....) also moves the base pin. Blows with brass drift and hammer on the ears of the base pin have not moved it at all.
According to my old firearms disassembly/assembly book, that pin and the cylinder have to come out before any further disassembly so we are stuck for now.

[bob208]

sounds like the bolt that locks the cylinder may be stuck up. try to remove the trigger guard. if you can then you can get oil in the trigger area. if you can get the bolt down or out then you can spin the cylinder with more soaking. next would be to try to gt the hammer out. then you can try to drive the cylinder pin out from the back. which will work better because are driving straight.

[Texas by God]

This is out of left field but you've nothing to lose. Fill a large stew pot with water, remove the grips put the gun in and bring to a boil. After a few minutes remove from heat and squirt some Dawn dish washing liquid in and stir it around. After it cools down to 150 degrees or so, put on a playtex dish washing glove and a leather gauntlet(welding) glove on, reach in there and try to cock it several times. This worked for me on a colt copy that someone put up uncleaned in a pistol rug that got rained on and dried by the sun in the back of a truck, layed there about a month. I had to cut the rug off with a knife. Surprisingly it survived after all this and is a very accurate revolver. I own it because "Bubba" wouldn't pay the $50 bill I presented. I had tried PB blaster and WD-40 but until it's boiling bath nothing worked. Good luck sorry for the windy tale.
Best,Thomas.

[okshooter]

I think we will give the boiling water a try. Thanks Texas!

[Ballistics in Scotland]

First of all, thanks for all the replies.
I spoke with a very nice lady who answered the Navy Arms phone. A little info according to her: the "old" Navy Arms closed 2001; no parts available ( referenced VTI Gun Parts, 860-435-8068.
She said the revolver is a Pietta, mfg. 1980 per the AF stamp. PN is pelegro(sp?) negro, Italian for black powder.

The gun has now had heavy doses of PB Blaster and Kroil for 48+ hours. I have always been able to lower the loading lever and/or bring the hammer to half cock. What little movement of the cylinder ( a fraction of a fraction.....) also moves the base pin. Blows with brass drift and hammer on the ears of the base pin have not moved it at all.
According to my old firearms disassembly/assembly book, that pin and the cylinder have to come out before any further disassembly so we are stuck for now.

Well that's a slight improvement. The pin is seized in the cylinder, but not in the frame. I still think the improvised stirrup is better than just hammering on the axis pin ears, since the latter is angled and thus less effective. Or you could clamp on a stirrup extending to the rear of the revolver, and hit that in a straight line with the pin.

Freeing the locking bolt is useful advice. I think removing the hammer axis screw and hitting the hammer from above ought to extract the hand if it is rusted into its slot. Use a piece of metal rod so that the blows impact on the hollow of the hammer top, not on the spur.

It sounds like you will now be able to use any Pietta parts Numrich Gunparts can supply.

At this stage I would use the Kroil again, in case that beating has loosened the rust enough to give it a way further in.

[bob208]

like I said start taking the small parts off where ever you can take the loading leaver off. that way the screw is out that locks the cylinder pin in the frame. try to get the trigger and hammer out. with the hammer out you have a direct shot at the cylinder pin. if you have to sacrifice it you can drill it from the back and it is cheaper then a cylinder.


I bought a 61 navy colt uberti. it was badly beat up and rusted. i got it apart. had to face the cylinder off from where they were hitting it to get the barrel off. had to make a swage pin to straighten the cylinder holes. lucky all the internals were good. got it all back together. it is the best timed and shooting colt 51-61 navy I have ever had.

I have a early navy arms 58 Remington in .44 number 336. it is a a.s.m. I have a later navy arms 58 Remington in .36 it too is a a.s.m.

[okshooter]

Got it apart!
Texas, the boiling did not free the cylinder enough to turn but it did soften the crud holding the cylinder pin enough so I could drive it out by tapping the "ears" with a brass drift and small hammer.
bob208, Ballistics et. al. thanks again! Had I not got it, your suggestions were next on the list.

The bore/grooves are heavily rusted as are the chambers. I have all those openings plugged and filled with PB Blaster for a day or two. Any suggestions on heavy rust removal from these places? I've already ran a brass brush but there is much to go. Thanks.

Also, that cylinder pin as a flat milled in it. My disassemble/assembly book does not address this. Does it make a difference whether it is up or down?

[Hellgate]

You should be able to remove the trigger guard and grips. Tap out the mainspring and remove the trigger & bolt screw and spring. Then lift out the trigger/bolt spring, trigger & bolt. Then the hammer screw & hammer. Remember that on a Remington you have to shove the hammer downward to expose the hand to get the hand screw & hand out before you can lift the hammer up & out of the frame. One the gun is "gutless" you may be able to rotate the cylinder or tap the cylinder pin out from the rear or front.

[Harter66]

I was very sceptical about the wonders of Evaporust until I actually tried some on a rust spotted mould . It will of course take any bluing away but it also will pull all of the light rust and lift everything not still of solid iron/steel . I don't know how far it will go towards the white as I was very happy to have the gray patina instead of almost scale . It's water soluble and works until iron saturated .

[Ballistics in Scotland]

In a revolver which doesn't have gain twist rifling like original Colts, lead and abrasive lapping might be the best way of restoring the bore. I haven't used Evaporust, but I have phosphoric acid, the active ingredient of naval jelly, which does a good job of rust removal with a slight satin finish, which is not going to worsen any situation you sound likely to get into with this one. If the external finish on the cylinder is worth saving, you could plug the nipples with toothpicks and fill the chambers with a syringe or dropper. If that amount gets exhausted with rust left, just tip it out and repeat the process.

One advantage of the Remington is that you can get the barrel out, and make a bushing to accurately ream some metal from the inside of the chambers.

[okshooter]

Ballistics in Scotland,
I have one of the tools shown in post #39 of the Cleaning patented breech/ante chamber thread. I wrapped it in steel wool, put it on a piece of rod and used the cordless drill to spin it in the chambers of the cylinder. The chambers cleaned up well after the PB Blaster soak (I had done exactly as you suggested above, i.e. plugged the nipples with round toothpicks and filled the chambers with PB Blaster) and the cylinder is definitely worth saving.. I am still soaking the barrel and the back of the cylinder where the nipple openings are. If the soak and more brushing does not get all the rust I will try some bore paste or start the search for Evaporust. Thanks.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

At the end of the day you are going to enjoy it more than one you just bought off the peg in a gunshop.

[okshooter]

Returned it to the friend today. Looks all ended well! Thanks again to all.