am i missing something

[runfiverun]

recently I have been taking my weight swaged cores and jackets and heating them up until the lead melts in the jacket.

now I don't know if this is bonding the core to the jacket or not.
it looks like I am on about 95% of them but out of a batch of 500 or so I have about 5-6 that the core slides in the jacket.
the alloy of the core is 1-1.5% antimony and no tin.
I'm getting a good consistent scaling on the jacket which cleans up in the pin tumbler easy enough.
I'm also getting close to 700-f with the little tool I made and the heating element.
it's also fitting the core to the jacket better [better fill out] than core seating alone.

do I need to add something like a paste flux to the jacket?

[hardcase54]

Without flux you are just melting the lead not bonding (soldering) core to the jacket.

[alfloyd]

A little tin will help the core bond to the jacket. They both must be clean of oil or other contaminants.

Lafaun

[Hickory]

I would use flux designed for electronics or use Corbin's flux. Apply a very light coating of flux to the inside of the jacket with a Q-tip.
If you're using rim fire cases for jackets the only problem you might have is when you put the tip on the bullet, the jacket may collapse from having too much heat being applied, over annealing the brass resulting in rings around the shank of the bullet.

[M.A.D]

Add tin, flux and i wash it all in baking soda afterwards

[reed1911]

Flux, flux, flux, flux. Be it acid or rosin you need it. If you can get your jackets very clean and use them right away, rosin is just fine and better in my opinion (no chance of corrosion later on if you fail to neutralize all the acid (that is what the baking soda is for, to neutralize the acid)). If you cannot get your jackets down to good clean bare copper with no oxidation than you will need to use acid core flux and use a neutralizing wash afterward. If you miss any they will corrode over time, you will see the lead turn white/silvery powder residue and the copper will be the blue/green and/or black.

Skip the all natural or bio-flux and use the good old cheap stuff. Lots of ways about it, if you are only doing a small number you can nip off a small piece of flux core solider and drop it into the base of the jacket first although in the smaller calibers that may cause significant weight variation depending on the % difference between cuts, I use a small squeeze bottle with a needle tip and cut my flux with alcohol to make it liquid and just drop a drop into the base of the jacket, this makes it very fast for doing by the 100 count. Just add enough alcohol to have it as liquid as you want and go, you will be using more than you need so don't worry about it if you mix it 50/50 or 25/75 or 75/25.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I'm pretty sure just heat would bond when you don't want it to (e.g. a short-lived Portuguese flirtation with copper foil-patched bullets) but not bond when you do.

The fluxes recommended for electronics, and for such jobs as soldering shotgun ribs where you mustn't have corrosion underneath, are rosin based. There are lots of jobs where there is no reason to use anything else, but they can leave a residue when confined and heated, either burnt or just a pocket of hardened rosin, and it could be off-centre. For this job I believe I would use an acid flux, which I make by dissolving zinc chloride and ammonium chloride in water. With that the residue is very slight and evenly distributed. A few minutes in water afterwards will remove any that remains where air can reach it.

[Hickory]

Back in the 80's I bonded about 2000 bullets using rimfire jackets for shooting prairie dogs, it was time consuming and tedious.
The results were more then great, the bullets held together just enough to get a lot of doubles and some triples. But, like I said, it's time consuming and tedious.
A little tin will lower the melting point and give better adhesion without over annealing the jackets.

[Faret]

https://photos-6.dropbox.com/t/2/AACrhxcsG5Pw1nnUGxnxPzFu5XA0fGi0_kVtFgRcrVkwiA/12/39410401/jpeg/32x32/1/_/1/2/KIMG0193.jpg/EPOhhx4Y4QIgAigC/HKz3WLdnd52Fbc3rsuDBC3KP67PdNkm5tXSiPRiLBXM?size=1 280x960&size_mode=3

This is what I use. Must de acid after bonding like others have said.

[rancher1913]

Back in the 80's I bonded about 2000 bullets using rimfire jackets for shooting prairie dogs, it was time consuming and tedious.
The results were more then great, the bullets held together just enough to get a lot of doubles and some triples. But, like I said, it's time consuming and tedious.
A little tin will lower the melting point and give better adhesion without over annealing the jackets.

​he's unemployed, he has all the time in the world.

[Hickory]

​he's unemployed, he has all the time in the world.

​Mortal man only has a very small portion of 'all the time in the world.'

[ReloaderFred]

When I'm swaging handgun bullets using brass casings for jackets, I end up with bonded cores without the use of any fluxes. I believe it's because I'm heating my jackets and cores to 1,125 degrees F, and letting them heat soak overnight in the ceramics kiln I use for annealing. I picked this temperature because that's what Starline uses to anneal their brass during the manufacturing process, and I figured they knew more about making brass into useful items than I do.

The result in my .429" bullets is the only way to separate the core from the fired jackets is to melt it out. I've yet to have one separate when fired into the dirt berm at our range, and I've dug a lot of them out just to see. We also mine our berms, so the ones I miss are in the mix when all the bullets are sifted out.

http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/ReloaderFred/slideshow/Annealing%20Jackets

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Ballistics in Scotland]

​Mortal man only has a very small portion of 'all the time in the world.'

Yes, but he doesn't have to worry about the things he puts off until afterwards.

[runfiverun]

okay it looks like i'll need to figure out a flux then.
I thought I had some paste flux out in the shed, looks like a trip to the hardware store is in order.
I don't need them all bonded but I think for hunting it'll help, I'm gonna add a cannelure too.

[clodhopper]

I'm using paste flux for soldering copper pipe applied with a Qtip.
Standing all the jackets made from fired brass up right in a stainless steel pan and putting them on an electric burner.

[runfiverun]

that's similar to my set-up.

I'm using a little counter top single burner heating element.
the holder I made from two circular saw blades with holes drilled in the top blade.
the lid is a stainless steel bowl.
it just barely gets over 700-f and only holds 60 bullets but it does what I want it to do.
it goes through a heat & cool cycle in about 20 minutes, so the output is something like 120 bullets an hour.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

So, I've never tried to 'bond' any bullets that I have swaged...but I have done a lot of soldering...years of soldering on the job. A Lead/Tin alloy will "wet" or bond to copper or brass a lot sooner than a Lead alloy without Tin...the more tin the more wetting. Flux aids in the wetting, by cleaning the copper/brass...If your jackets are super clean, that is maybe why you seemingly had bonded your jackets without flux. Maybe bust a few open with a cold chisel and hammer? that should show if the lead alloy is truely wetted to the jacket.

[Gamsek]

189475https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170302/14f3e9b65c5a3b1cbfcbe3ee8c755a97.jpg
The way I do it by Dave Corbin's instructions....they need polishing after...

[ReloaderFred]

So, I've never tried to 'bond' any bullets that I have swaged...but I have done a lot of soldering...years of soldering on the job. A Lead/Tin alloy will "wet" or bond to copper or brass a lot sooner than a Lead alloy without Tin...the more tin the more wetting. Flux aids in the wetting, by cleaning the copper/brass...If your jackets are super clean, that is maybe why you seemingly had bonded your jackets without flux. Maybe bust a few open with a cold chisel and hammer? that should show if the lead alloy is truely wetted to the jacket.

I've done that very thing with a cold chisel, Jon. They are as one. The only way to separate my cores from the jackets is to melt them out, even after being smashed by impacting the dirt berm. I believe it's due to the higher temperatures I anneal at versus the lower temperatures others are using. The over night heat sink to let them cool in the closed kiln probably also has something to do with it. Even after sitting all night in the kiln, they still read about 240 to 260 degrees F after sitting there over 10 hours, so I take the tray out and set in on the concrete floor for another hour to get them cool enough to handle.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[PWS]

So, nobody recommends seating the cores before heating? Reason I ask is that this thread inspired me to muck around with bonding this weekend and Sunday afternoon finds me failed in two big ways - didn't get much bonding except a little at the very base and lots of porosity when I tore open the finished slugs. This was using a SOWW core that's loose, regular zinc chloride paste flux on a Q-tip, and melting them standing in the LEE pot I also use to anneal the jackets. The jackets are drawn .308 cases that have been wet tumbled.

I'm going to try a little tin in my cores and be much more anal about cleaning the insides of the jackets but I'm still concerned about porosity.

[clodhopper]

I'm using paste flux for soldering copper pipe applied with a Qtip.
Standing all the jackets made from fired brass up right in a stainless steel pan and putting them on an electric burner.
Okay todays experiments show this to only bond 50% or so of parts.
Tin sounds like a good solution, at least I have some handy.

[Zbench]

Not sure why you want to reinvent the wheel. Just buy corbin's flux, use a drop per core and be done with it. It never fails in my experience. A quart will last you several lifetimes.

[clodhopper]

Key word "buy"

[hardcase54]

Corbin's is all I have ever used, has not failed yet.

[runfiverun]

seating the cores before the heat could help since you wouldn't have a lot of air there to release the flux.
I have been melting mine like I described then core seating.

I could try the flux in the jacket, then core seating, then do the melt.

I have been doing the melt because it seems to help fill out the jacket better in the point form die and because I can get about 2 more grains of core weight in there.

[uncle dino]

R5R..I,would advise against seating core before bonding..they do pop..I've had cores hit the lid of pot even when I've had plenty of clearance to let gases, moisture or whatever escape. When core lets go it splatters lead all over the outside of jackets of surrounding bullets. Zbench called it...I also would highly recommend Corbin's core bond..it really works great..lasts forever. Any little bit of impurities left in jacket will float right to the top.. 2 oz. is 8 bucks and will probably do thousands of bullets?. D

[runfiverun]

thanks Dino.
i'll probably just break down and get some.
I know how important a flux is to cleaning before bonding when soldering, and my cores get pretty oxidized after cleaning the swage lube off them.

[clodhopper]

I checked Corbin's web site today, Core bond seem to be out of stock.

[uncle dino]

http://www.swagedies.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=CBST&Category_Code=Chemicals..
Try here. D

[clodhopper]

Thanks Dino, that's not the same page I found it on yesterday.
Corbin's web site is such a warren, all kinds of jems hiding in it.

[Zbench]

A word of advise, when you do use that flux and heat the assembled core and bullet, some of the flux will fizz out and spray on the surroundings. It will rust steel in a heartbeat, so make sure you have anything you care about covered up. I use aluminum foil.

[Faret]

A word of advise, when you do use that flux and heat the assembled core and bullet, some of the flux will fizz out and spray on the surroundings. It will rust steel in a heartbeat, so make sure you have anything you care about covered up. I use aluminum foil.

Would this do any damage to the heating elements on a electric kiln or furnace?

[PWS]

http://www.swagedies.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=CBST&Category_Code=Chemicals..
Try here. D

Ordered some today too, Thanks Dino!

[Zbench]

I don't think so. One thing needed for rust is moisture, which is in precious supply at 1000 F!

[runfiverun]

my little heater element was 10$ at the walmart.
I could probably absorb that financial set-back if it gets ruined.

[uncle dino]

I'm not sure about long term affects of core bond on enclosed heating elements.. I've only ran maybe 5 large batches in my kiln. I see scale on the elements.. But that may be normal..I find myself using a giant cast iron frying pan with a lid over a propane burner..Is a lot quicker..300 bullets in pan. Burner on high ..7-8 minutes..done. the few vapors from core bond seem to help keep oxidation on outside of jacket to a minimum..if you resist the temptation to take the lid off and peek..D

[PWS]

Holy Moley! Core Bond showed up yesterday and had a chance to try some. What a difference! The cores wetted to the jackets and everything performed the way Corbin's says. Proof is in the shooting but that'll be at least a few days.

Core freshly melted and wetted to jacket:

190569

Cores solidified and shrinkage hole showing that they're holding to the jacket:

190570

[uncle dino]

I wet tumble the cores in baking soda and car wash after I bond...once you remove them from the wash, water will be trapped in the hole in center of core. I place all the cores back in pot @ 200 degrees for at least 1/2 hour to get water out.. Look real close when you core seat, if you can see the water on top of the core if it isn't dry enough..water will create voids in core otherwise...don't core seat without washing...will rust up your die.. D

[runfiverun]

baking soda is a PH neutralizer and super cheap don't skip using it.

[reed1911]

Yep! Baking soda is great and if you use the A&H fridge/freezer packs it is more or less free since you were going to throw it away anyhow. I use them in the soda blaster as well.