.50 VS .54 Round Ball Accuracy

[54bore]

Having ZERO experience with shooting Round Ball, Is one of these more accurate than the other? I was invited to attend a competition type shoot this Spring/summer that is Round Ball only, I have 3 different Stock 1:48 Twist TC barrels in .54 Cal, I would rather have a Slower more dedicated Round Ball Twist. I just recently bought a brand New Lyman Great Plains Hunter .54 Cal (Fast Twist) i am leaning toward a Round Ball Barrel for it? What Caliber would you guys recommend .50 or .54? Does one of these seem to be inherently more accurate than the other?(like certain centerfires are) This is gonna be for pounding targets only. As most of you know I shoot Peep Sights, i already have the Lyman 57GPR Tang Peep on the Rifle, the Round ball barrel that i get will definitely get a Lyman 17AEU Globe front sight. Peep sights ARE allowed at this event, but my Paper Patched bullets are NOT allowed. Would a 1:70 Green Mountain Barrel be a better way to go than one of these Stock Lyman GP Barrels?

[sharps4590]

Usually for the distances involved in trad shoots your 1-48 should be adequate. As far as one being inherently more accurate than the other that's so much horse manure, much as with centerfires. Given a good barrel, chamber and load they can ALL be made to shoot with enough work. I prefer the 54 but I hunt more than shoot matches these days. There's nothing wrong with a 50. The advantage with a 54 on targets, though quite small, is real in that the ball is .04 larger in diameter. With a really close shot that .04 can make a difference, as slight as it is. Were I out to by a dedicated round ball barrel 1-66 would be the fastest I'd consider. Generally the heavier powder charge you want to shoot the slower the twist. It's unlikely a fella is going to need a Forsyth twist barrel and his heavy charges to kill paper or steel.

[Good Cheer]

Is one of these more accurate than the other?

.54 can blow sideways in the wind a little bit less depending upon the velocity.
.50 can shoot a little bit flatter, again depending upon the velocity.
But neither of those factors are going to matter towards accuracy more than the gun, the loading practices and the shooter.

Me, I still aint found my ultimate super duper accuracy load for the 33" barreled Fremont.
:p

[54bore]

As far as one being inherently more accurate than the other that's so much horse manure, much as with centerfires. Given a good barrel, chamber and load they can ALL be made to shoot with enough work.

Makes good sense! As stated, I have ZERO experience with Round Ball, I am a 100% Paper Patched and sized bullet shooter, It's a BUMMER they dont allow them! I have a really nice old pre warning, low 4 digit Renegade barrel i already have a Lyman 17AHB Globe on, i will work it over and see what i can do with it? I bought some .530 Hornady Round Balls, and 2 different sized patches, .015 and .018 to try, i have Swiss 2 and 3F powders, i should be able to come up with something acceptable

[Edward]

According to Johnson 1942 who builds some really nice roundball shooters (one very recently sold here) stated he believes a 45 cal will constantly out shoot the 50 every time . I tend to believe him /Ed

[waksupi]

Either will shoot as well as the guy behind the trigger can hold them. Since you are in Idaho, I would consider the .54 pretty hard, for hunting purposes. I do like a 1-66 barrel, and as fast as 1-60. The slower you go in twist, the more powder you will use.
I once built a .62 rifle with a 1-120 twist, under recommendation of Forsyth. It took 170 gr. 3F to shoot well, and killed at both ends.

[54bore]

I once built a .62 rifle with a 1-120 twist, under recommendation of Forsyth. It took 170 gr. 3F to shoot well, and killed at both ends.

Waksupi, This dont sound fun at all! Just curious the weight of the Ball?

[rodwha]

I'd think the .54's ability to defy a breeze as being optimal for this as well.

I've read of fellas getting good results with fast twist barrels and light loads. Worth a try before you buy a barrel I'd think.

[bob208]

when I first started shooting in matches I used a lyman gpr .50 with the 1-66 twist. shot and won many prizes. then I got a hoyt .40 cal. barrel and put that on the lyman stock. it has a 1-48 twist. won many prizes and medals with that. some times I use my 1841 rifle with a hoyt .54 liner with a 1-48 twist. won a lot of matches with it also. then I started using a underhammer with a .45 1-48 barrel. and yes won a lot of matches with it also.

so mostly it is a good load. use the smaller caliber less powder and lead equals more shooting. which equals better shooting. the .50 and .54 I used 55 gr 3f goex. the .40 used 40 gr. 3f goex. at 100 upped it to 45 gr. the .45 45gr.doex.

[waksupi]

Waksupi, This dont sound fun at all! Just curious the weight of the Ball?

They are right in the 300gr. neighborhood.

[54bore]

They are right in the 300gr. neighborhood.

With 170 Grains of 3F behind it..... D@MN lol, I noticed you said 'i once built' does that mean you once sold? LOL

[oldracer]

At our monthly black powder matches in the San Diego area we have a mixture of 50, 45 and even a 30 caliber squirrel rifle. One fellow shoots a 75 caliber musket and is very hard to beat but then he has shot it for many years. The caliber of the ball means little I feel and what is most important is getting the rifle sighted in using a rest and then getting comfortable with it. This means wiping between shots if necessary, the ball diameter and patch thickness that works best, powder load for best consistency and which percussion caps work best? Many of those you probably already know but a match is a tad different especially if you have time limits on the shooting strings. Fortunately for me and a few others who wipe all the time, we are very laid back and no timing!

[Fastleo]

I hunt with a .54 renegade .530 RB. With 80gr of powder. I'm comfortable shooting to 80yds for white tail.

[johnson1942]

a 1/75 twist for a .62 cal would allow reasonable powder loads for good accuracy.

[waksupi]

a 1/75 twist for a .62 cal would allow reasonable powder loads for good accuracy.


I found that 1-66 is my favorite for .62.

[jjarrell]

Be careful with really slow twist barrels for target use, as you must obviously shoot more than one shot. When hunting a little more whollop at the shoulder isn't as big a deal. I have to feed my very slow twist barrel a LOT of powder to get it to shoot to it's potential. I have a 36" .54 cal barrel with 1:79 twist rifling built by Joe Williams at The Gun Works up in Oregon. The most accurate load is 115gr of Olde Eynsford 3f, 30gr COW over powder, .535 ball, .020" patch, and mink oil lube which gives me one ragged hole at 50 yards and a group I can completely cover with 2 spent patches at 100 yards. The chrono says 2093fps average with this load. OE is close to Swiss for velocity. Now bare in mind I said this is the most accurate load I've been able to work up. I DID NOT say it was fun to shoot. Kicks like a pissed off pack mule. My hunting load is all the same components accept 90gr of powder. It shoots within 3/4" of the previous loads group size, and is very mild to shoot. It also chronos an average of 1909fps which is MORE than enough for anything walking North America. It seems like anything less than the 90gr and groups open to 4" or 5" at even 50 yards. Food for thought.......all rifles are different. YMMV

[sharps4590]

I'm pretty certain my .600 RB of straight lead goes 340 grs. Even at 60-70 grs, of Ffg it's a thumper on whitetails and hogs. Ain't no -06 gonna kill any quicker.

[54bore]

I am leaning toward a .45 Cal Round Ball Rifle for target fun, Johnson1942 mentioned it to me and it makes the most sense, beings i already have .50 and a .54 fast twist Paper Patch shooters for Elk hunting. I'd rather enjoy these Round Ball shoots vs being walloped to death time and time again over a paper target. I am not afraid of heavy recoil, but I'm not a huge fan of it either.

[bob208]

now you are thinking. I shoot a .45 right now. first started with a .50 gpr. then put a .40 cal hoyt barrel on it. won a lot of matches with it. then tried a underhammer I like the action. it is .45. I am going to fit the .40 to it one day.

at the matches most of the top shooters are using .40 and .45 cal rifles. the loads range between 35-50 gr. 3f. real black powder.

[Toymaker]

For several years I used a CVA 54 caliber Hawken Hunter for competition and hunting. When I decided to make my own rifle I checked the NMLRA records to see what rifle won most of the time - answer, full stock, 40 caliber, caplock. Then I noticed the names of the winners. It seemed that it didn't matter what was shot, it was who did the shooting.
Good rifle, in a style and caliber that you're comfortable with, good load development, practice, have fun and don't take yourself seriously.

[waksupi]

For several years I used a CVA 54 caliber Hawken Hunter for competition and hunting. When I decided to make my own rifle I checked the NMLRA records to see what rifle won most of the time - answer, full stock, 40 caliber, caplock. Then I noticed the names of the winners. It seemed that it didn't matter what was shot, it was who did the shooting.
Good rifle, in a style and caliber that you're comfortable with, good load development, practice, have fun and don't take yourself seriously.

Yep. It ain't the arrow, it's the Indian!

[charlie b]

I had a question about this too. I am using my GPH barrel with PRB and am still working on loads. It seems to like lighter loads, as in 40-50gn rather than heavier. A 40gn load of 3f will get me around 2" at 50yd where 80gn is 4". I had always thought that the faster twist would want a slower bullet. The problem with the lighter load is the rainbow trajectory for 100yd.

And, yes, I am learning how to shoot PRB. Only shot one other rilfe with it, back about 30yrs ago. That was a KY rifle with slow twist. It was accurate with just about any load.

Anyone else do this? I am open to any ideas or experience.

[sharps4590]

GPH barrels are like 1-32 or 1-28, aren't they? The lighter load under a PRB showing the better accuracy is pretty much as it should be so yes sir, you are correct. You want higher velocity, flatter trajectory with a PRB with accuracy you'll need a slower twist. The PRB doesn't take a lot of stabilizing. Being the shortest projectile that will fit a bore it has the sectional density of a rock. Spin it too fast and it becomes less stable.

[charlie b]

Yep, that is what I thought. I figure on limiting my round ball shooting to 50yd or so, unless it is a really calm day.

[54bore]

GPH barrels are like 1-32 or 1-28, aren't they? The lighter load under a PRB showing the better accuracy is pretty much as it should be so yes sir, you are correct. You want higher velocity, flatter trajectory with a PRB with accuracy you'll need a slower twist. The PRB doesn't take a lot of stabilizing. Being the shortest projectile that will fit a bore it has the sectional density of a rock. Spin it too fast and it becomes less stable.

I just bought a brand new Lyman GPH in .54 Cal and it is 1:32 Twist, so is the .50

[sharps4590]

I thought that's what I read some where but wasn't certain. I'm the opposite of some of ya'll in that I have absolutely zero experience with fast twist ML barrels but, ballistics is ballistics....:p

[mooman76]

Charle B,
Try a tighter patch and you should get better accuracy, especially with slightly heavier loads. Examine you fired patches they tell you allot. They should be in good enough shape to use again. If they are shredding or getting burned out, accuracy will suffer.

[54bore]

I thought that's what I read some where but wasn't certain. I'm the opposite of some of ya'll in that I have absolutely zero experience with fast twist ML barrels but, ballistics is ballistics....:p

That's me starting this thread, i have ZILCHO experience with Round Ball? I Shoot Paper Patched and sized bullets exclusively making the Fast Twist barrels my specialty. This thread has been REALLY interesting to me, i had no idea the slower the twist the more powder it takes? I would have never guessed that

[Squeeze]

GPH barrels are like 1-32 or 1-28, aren't they? The lighter load under a PRB showing the better accuracy is pretty much as it should be so yes sir, you are correct. You want higher velocity, flatter trajectory with a PRB with accuracy you'll need a slower twist. The PRB doesn't take a lot of stabilizing. Being the shortest projectile that will fit a bore it has the sectional density of a rock. Spin it too fast and it becomes less stable.

I think, the bigger the bore, the slow twists come in more. When you go tiny, It seems a faster twist in a .32 is better for roundball. A little .32 drops off the charts for formulas and specifics. Ive always went with the theory that a .40, and a .54 are a sort of sweet spot caliber for roundball accuracy. They just seem to consistently outshoot everything else.

[54bore]

I think, the bigger the bore, the slow twists come in more. When you go tiny, It seems a faster twist in a .32 is better for roundball. A little .32 drops off the charts for formulas and specifics. Ive always went with the theory that a .40, and a .54 are a sort of sweet spot caliber for roundball accuracy. They just seem to consistently outshoot everything else.

Squeeze, I plan to shoot the heck out of a couple of my stock 1:48 twist .54 Cal TC barrels with round balls when the snow gets gone here and i can actually get anywhere without getting stuck! I hope i can find accuracy in them, i have 3 different barrels to work with.

[mooman76]

Some guns have a really slow twist like 1-92(I believe) or slower. They usually take over 100gr to really shoot their best. Yes it is fact that the larger the caliber, less twist is needed to stabilize the round. It also depends on the length of the projectile being the longer projectile needs a faster twist to keep stable. RBs are RBs so the length thing goes out the window of coarse.

[charlie b]

Charle B,
Try a tighter patch and you should get better accuracy, especially with slightly heavier loads. Examine you fired patches they tell you allot. They should be in good enough shape to use again. If they are shredding or getting burned out, accuracy will suffer.

I think the patches are fine. They are indeed almost good enough to be used again, just the rifling marks on them. The rifling marks are nice and crisp.

One reason I was leery about trying PRB is the rifling on the Hunter barrels is shallow, like a breech loader, not the deep grooves most people look for with PRB. The slow twist barrels do have the deeper rifling.

[sharps4590]

The amusing and ironic thing about this entire thread is that all this was hashed out and known nearly 160 years ago. Forsyth, Baker and others had it all figured out. Sadly, unless a fella learns about and digs around to find their old writings, which are not all that easy to come by, it's almost as if it's lost knowledge and we get to re-invent the wheel. Saw the same thing when BPC's started getting popular. All those tricks and knowledge the old timers knew and took for granted we were ignorant of.

[Squeeze]

The amusing and ironic thing about this entire thread is that all this was hashed out and known nearly 160 years ago. Forsyth, Baker and others had it all figured out. Sadly, unless a fella learns about and digs around to find their old writings, which are not all that easy to come by, it's almost as if it's lost knowledge and we get to re-invent the wheel. Saw the same thing when BPC's started getting popular. All those tricks and knowledge the old timers knew and took for granted we were ignorant of.

that is so true. Guys like Whitworth, and Rigby had barrels and loads all figured and had already tried about all the possibilities. Now our mindset with all the technology is that history couldn't have matched our knowledge. But there's so much ancient historical finds, That we still don't know how it was built, and probably couldn't be replicated today. Even WITH the help of technology and machinery

[charlie b]

So, how did that knowledge get passed on? By people asking questions and reading books. Same as what is going on here now.

[54bore]

So, how did that knowledge get passed on? By people asking questions and reading books. Same as what is going on here now.

Gets lost over time/generations, then when it takes back off you start over. Not so much now days with the internet etc. the internet is a good, and bad thing, their is tons of good info out there, but also plenty of twisted garbage to go with the good. I personally enjoy trying new things, or 'new to me' things, Maybe it was done years ago, maybe it wasn't? I enjoy it regardless

[Fly]

Charlie. Why would you shoot a PRB in the GPH barrel in 1-32 twist? I have both barrels in GPR 1-66 & GPH in 1-32.
That makes no sense. My GPH shoots a conical much more accurate than a PRB?


Fly

[charlie b]

Because I want to. :) Yes, I shoot paper patched bullets too. Just nice every now and then to shoot some 'light' loads.

I don't have both barrels. I may get a second one, or even a second rifle, in the future to shoot PRB, but, right now the GPH is what I have.

I also like to see if I can 'stretch' what a firearm will do. Like mouse loads out of my M1 Garand or Mod 94 .30-30

[Fly]

OK I understand, get the GPR barrel some time in the future, you will love it also my friend.

Fly

[charlie b]

I might get a new barrel. But, then again, I have had a hankering for a flintlock so I may just wait and get a flinter for round ball shooting. Heck, I might even follow in rfd's footsteps and get a kit :)

[54bore]

I might get a new barrel. But, then again, I have had a hankering for a flintlock so I may just wait and get a flinter for round ball shooting. Heck, I might even follow in rfd's footsteps and get a kit :)

I have been threatening to do this as well! It would be fun to put one together to your liking

[jjarrell]

One other thing that may seem small but can make a huge difference in groups, no matter what caliber ball you choose. Weigh your round balls. If you cast your own most definitely weigh them. My Lee ball molds almost always throw within 3 grains. For economical molds they do quite an acceptable job. However, You DO get bubbles in some of them no matter how careful you are, also those bubbles make the balls off balance as they spin. I weigh mine and have had a difference in weight of almost 20 grains before. That ball would have most definitely been a flyer. I've also had Speer and Hornady balls vary in weight by a fairly large variance. Hornady to a lesser degree though.

[54bore]

One other thing that may seem small but can make a huge difference in groups, no matter what caliber ball you choose. Weigh your round balls. If you cast your own most definitely weigh them. My Lee ball molds almost always throw within 3 grains. For economical molds they do quite an acceptable job. However, You DO get bubbles in some of them no matter how careful you are, also those bubbles make the balls off balance as they spin. I weigh mine and have had a difference in weight of almost 20 grains before. That ball would have most definitely been a flyer. I've also had Speer and Hornady balls vary in weight by a fairly large variance. Hornady to a lesser degree though.

Makes good sense jjarrell! I weigh EVERY bullet i pour, and they have to be within 1 grain of eachother in order to keep, the rest go back in the melt. I Take out every variable possible. I take it a step farther by weighing each of my powder charges with my beam scale and put them in vials. I get an average of what 90 VOLUME grains is weighing in WEIGHT Grains, in my case with Swiss 2F its 95 weight grains. Again, i take out every variable I possibly can. My groups clearly tell me that the little extra effort i put in pays off

[jjarrell]

Its all about consistency, and uniformity of components. Doing everything one can to exactly recreate the conditions inside the barrel with each and every shot. If a person takes this time and care. Is this meticulous. Then even wind and environmental factors will be minimized.