Making Star dies--My Methods

[lathesmith]

I decided to start a new thread, because 1)We have several threads on this subject going now, 2)I didn't want to hijack another thread, and 3) Some of you have generously donated to the site here as "payment" for dies I have made that fit your machine, and I didn't want there to be any doubt about what you got or will get should you decide to get more of these from me.

First of all, I use O-1 tool steel for these dies exclusively. I won't use 1018, 1040, cold-rolled, hot-rolled, or any other "junk" or mild steel that I could probably come up with for free. When you order a die from me, you know exactly what you're getting: O-1 tool steel. Why? Because this is the time-tested medium. My goal is to provide you with a factory or near-factory quality die, and I can't do this unless I use the right stuff. Also, a die made from O-1 is easily hardened. The advantage of hardening is that the die is more wear- and ding-resistant. The disadvantage is that it is not as easily modifiable. So, you have your choice; you can harden if you like, or leave annealed. More on this later.
Next, thanks to those of you who have ordered these dies from me, together we have been able to raise a nice chunk of money for the site here. It's great when we can work together and help each other in this way, and I thank you for your support! Also, together we have gotten to use and verify a "new" design, the C-clip or "Buckshot" design. I have now made these dies both with the shoulder and the clip, and the clip design is faster and easier to make. It also works just as well in these hand-operated machines. So you now have a less expensive alternative. That was one of the goals of this entire project, to establish the viability of this design on a larger scale, and I believe we have accomplished this.
Now, about that shoulder. There are obviously many guys who absolutely must have this shoulder, no matter what. Okay, I'm not going to argue the point. Not wanting to shirk a challenge, I decided to make a run of these dies out of 7/8 stock with the shoulder. Yes, it does take longer to make, so yes, they do cost more--$30 vs $22 for the Buckshot design. This is due to having to fit and polish two precision surfaces instead of one--inside AND outside. Yes, that outside dimension AND finish IS critical. That high polish on the factory die isn't just eyewash--it keeps wear in the bore of your alloy sizer press to an absolute minimum. That is why the outside dimension is also critical--you want a slight press fit into the bore, to minimize movement. More than .0005 undersize, and you could have "slop" that will accelerate wear in the bore; add in a less-than-smooth surface to this, and wear will accelerate rapidly.
In sum, my goal is to make a die that is as near-factory quality as I can make it. I can only do this with the right material, and finish work IS required. Unfortunately, this is also what takes the most time. And, I haven't even talked about the time it takes to duplicate factory quality of the bore! Any old rube with a lathe can hack out a useable die in 15 or 20 minutes for these machines, and I include myself in this category. It's the finish work that will set a factory-quality die apart from a rough blank, and this is also why the factory dies may not be as over-priced as you think.
I don't want this post to stretch out too long, so I'll stop here for now. I am always happy to detail how I make these dies, and I can do so here if there is enough interest. Most of my methods can be found right here on the sight, they are a combination of several guys' hints and techniques. I couldn't do it without you! Thanks again for your support!

lathesmith

[HeavyMetal]

I've been using 4 of these dies and they rock!

Thanks again Lathesmith for those 38 dies they will do they trick this weekend I'm going to cast Sat. and try them Sunday!

[Buddy in FL]

PM sent.
Thanks

[lathesmith]

Oh yes, I wanted to mention a few things about heat-treating, for those of you who want to heat-treat these dies. In my experience, a Mapp gas torch will get the die hot enough in about 3-4 minutes. I then quench this in a coffee-can of used motor oil, about 2/3 full. You need to get the die a nice orange color, and they do harden up nicely this way. As always, YMMV...
Also, the steel will "grow" around .0005-.001. What this means is, you may have to polish the outside a bit, depending on how it fit your press before. And, the bore will now be one size bigger--in other words, a .358 becomes a .359, or a .431 becomes a .432, for example. You need to keep this in mind, if you plan on heat-treating, order .001 smaller than you want and when you treat it the bore will "grow" the final .001.
Heat treating is NOT necessary for these dies. I have been heat treating some lately, just to get a feel for how to do it. Also, I have been drilling 2-3 rows of holes, and with a heat-treated die you don't have to be as careful when plugging the holes with shot. If you do not heat-treat and you want to plug a row of holes with shot, this will work fine. Just be very careful, and do NOT use a power drill to drill out the shot. On an untreated die it is VERY easy to drill into the steel! Just use a propane torch to melt the shot, you will be glad you did!
lathesmith

[Buckshot]

..............Sure looks like nice work you're doing lathesmith! I'm curious about using used motor oil for the coolant whne heat treating. Doesn't it make the die pretty grungy with a tough black layer on it?

................Buckshot

[dragonrider]

Nice lookin dies Lathesmith, I am curious about how you do the number and lettering?

[lathesmith]

Buckshot, you are right, motor oil isn't the best quenching medium. If you look closely at the above photo, you can detect what is left of the oil residue after quickly polishing off most of the rest of it. But dang it, it's free, and seems to work good enough for my purposes. If I wasn't so darn cheap I'd probably try some synthetic motor oil; this stuff has a much higher boiling point, and should bring the temp of the heated piece down faster, which of course would work better. Yea, quenching in motor oil does leave some black residue, but it is quickly and easily polished off. It don't seem to etch the metal, and after heat-treating, the dies survive my "drop from waist height to concrete floor without dinging" test, so I'm happy with it. I'm pretty easy to please, I guess.
dragonrider, I made a special stamping jig for those letters and numbers, to get them nice and pretty each and every time. I admit, I am kinda proud of that, it does lend a nice, finished, "factory" look. I use one of those six-dollar stamping kits from HF with my jig, so it isn't anything expensive. I'll post a pic of it in a few days, to give you an idea of what it looks like.
I wish there was a way of posting a pic of the interior of these dies, that's where the good stuff is REALLY at! If you will notice, when you hold a factory die up to the light, it is smooth and bright, no grooves, with a nice starting taper. When you can duplicate this, in a reasonable amount of time, THEN you're really getting somewhere.
lathesmith

[colbyjack]

well the O-1 is a oil quench metal, if you switched to a A-2 or S-7 heat it till glowing red then air blast fan cool it. it'll quench from the fan at a RC 62-64, then give it a 2/3 hour temper in your oven at 400 and it should be a RC 60 min.

on the oil quench itd be cheaper to use 4140 or 4340 or sumptin cheaper yet with same results use 1144. heat till 1550 degrees then oil quench no agitation leave in the oil for 5 mins. give them a light temper say 450/550 and itd be hard as heck also but wont break. if i had a handfull of these things i may beable to heat treat them for you. justy need to know the material for sure and what spec you want.

send me a sample slug or a messed up one and i can treat it and see what hardness it comes out at if your interested. -chris

edit**
o on the black oily residue from the oil quench its cause its to thick, and its in the air before it hits the oil. we use a 11 second quench oil real thin and slimey. our lil tool furnace makes the parts come out black cause you have to manually pull the loads and get over quench tank. the furnaces that have the endothermic gases the load stays in the oven then hits the oil, no oxygen in there so they dont turn black. but the parts should be still hard, so just give a real light vapor blast and itll come off. -chris

[hotwheelz]

Im no expert but I have been doing some reading on blacksmithing and most of the info I have read says to use ATF fluid. Note this is for knives not sizing dies if one of you guys is playing around maybe try it just an idea..

[R.M.]

I've been using one of Lathesmith's dies, and let me tell you, it's as good as any other.
I was thinking the other day as I was pumping my .38 wad-cutters out that when I change over to .45, all I need to do is pop off the cir-clip and push the die on through. No need for a die removal tool.
O-1, or drill rod as I'm used to calling it, comes as a finished size, which works out quite well for this application. I have seen A-2 come in finished size, but I think Lathesmith is on the right track. Keep up the good work. I wouldn't change a thing.:drinks:

[quasi]

A-2 is a lot more expensive than 0-1. 1144 or 4140 ht might be options to think about.

[colbyjack]

i think the s-7/A2 would come out the nicest as not having a residue from a oil quench. itd be easier to heat treat, get it hot glowing orange and then blow it down with a fan or air compressor. give it a light temper in a lil counter top oven, and youd be good to go. itd come out alot harder than the O-1 and would be clean. fastneal and mc master carr may have some descent buys.

i hear ya with not wanting to run the price up. but if the 01 works and your sure your getting it hard just temper it then blast it in a harbor freight blast cabinet. call it good.... -chris

[Nrut]

I've been using one of Lathesmith's dies, and let me tell you, it's as good as any other.
I was thinking the other day as I was pumping my .38 wad-cutters out that when I change over to .45, all I need to do is pop off the cir-clip and push the die on through. No need for a die removal tool.
O-1, or drill rod as I'm used to calling it, comes as a finished size, which works out quite well for this application. I have seen A-2 come in finished size, but I think Lathesmith is on the right track. Keep up the good work. I wouldn't change a thing.:drinks:

RM...see #2 post 19 by lathesmith regarding removing c-clip and pushing your dies thru the Star sizer...
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=31366

[jim smith]

They do look good, and if exact sizes are the norm I'll buy some.How do I order, and how do I pay?.....................jim smith

[lathesmith]

jim, a simple PM to me will get you the info you need.

dragonrider, below is a pic of my stamping jig:

[MtGun44]

Another very satisfied customer here. Lathesmith is doing a bang up job
on these and the price is right. :drinks:

One question - how much are we talking about for the raw material in O-1?

I'm thinking that sticking with a quality tool steel alloy would be a good idea,
and that the price is probably about $2-3 per unit for materials, so how much
could you save with some cheaper steel?

Bill

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Lathesmith, Are you reaming the bores, or using a tool post grinder? Also, any problem with decarburizing when heating with a Mapp torch? I use a furnace, and wrap the metal in stainless heat treating foil to protect it. A casting furnace with a thermometer is a good way to accurately temper. Just hold the piece under the lead hanging on a stiff wire.
Morgan

[dragonrider]

Very Clever Lathesmith, :drinks:

[lathesmith]

Morgan, I am using a small Proxxon grinder to finish the bores, mounted on my QCTP as you can see in the following photo. You get a large amount of credit for this; I had the idea floating in my head, but when I saw you repeatedly recommend a tool post grinder for bore finishing, I knew I had to try this. It works great! It is the best way I have found to get a mirror-smooth and very accurate bore, all in what I consider a reasonable time frame. I finish these before I heat-treat, allowing for the bore to "grow" in the process about .0005-.0008. I'm not getting any noticeable scaling or other surface problems; I only need to heat with the torch using a tin-can "forge" for about 3-4 minutes, and it is ready for quenching. I started using Dextron ATF, as per hotwheelz suggestion above, and I do like the results better. I don't know how hard these are getting, but they pass my "file skate" test, which is good enough for me. Thanks again to everyone for all the suggestions and ideas, this is a fun project!
lathesmith

[colbyjack]

i heat treated the normal one today, its mild steel. it didnt respond to the quench and temper. i heated it to 1550* for 2.5 hours and oil quenched with 11 sec quench oil. it had a as quenched hardness of a rockwell 3.

i havent done the O1 or the W1 yet. when i get a cycle this week that it can run with ill toss it in.

the mild steel one i could give a light case harden. like .003" to .005" just like a volquartsen gun bolt. then itd be file hard like a 15n 89 or so/ basically a rc 50 min on the case harden.....

ill keep you posted on the others as i get time this week. -chris

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Lathesmith, Nice job mounting the grinder on the tool post. Before I got my Dumore, I used my Craftsman 1/4" die grinder mounted in a tool post holder Sears sold for them.
Morgan

[lathesmith]

colby, thanks for running the heat-treat tests, that ought to be interesting.Case-hardening those mild steel dies did occur to me as a possibility, but I wasn't sure how that would affect surface finish and dimensions. Keep us posted....

Morgan, I also had your idea of getting one of those Dumore TPG's on ebay, I have seen those go for really reasonable prices. I wasn't sure how they would adapt to my small lathe though, so I finally went the Proxxon route. I may yet get one of those Dumore's, they also offer outside as well as inside grinding ability, which could come in handy for a wide range of things...

I'd be curious to know what you use for inside grinding and finishing of your sizer dies with your TPG. The best I have found is a Dremel brand, long slender stone, meant for chainsaw sharpening. This is a 1/8" shaft. I have tried others, but they are either not quite long enough, or the concentricity is poor, or the quality is just not quite good enough.

lathesmith

[Morgan Astorbilt]

lathesmith, I buy all my stones, both mounted and unmounted, from MSC. The majority of them are Norton, but I've have had good luck in the past, with their USA made no-name stones, including assortments that are sometimes on sale very inexpensively. Some of the cheaper ones have to be fed with less pressure than the Norton's. You can also get a mandrel(Craytex, not Dremel) for small wheels, a bit larger than your grinder nose, and do some outside grinding.
Morgan

[colbyjack]

i case hardened the mild steel one, probably .010" depth and i tempered it. it sits at a RC 50/52. i will have cycles this coming week to run the tool steel ones. i looked up the W1 its a water quench metal. 1450 for a hour carbon setting at a .70 probe and water quench no agitation. very time sensative must temper ASAP. ill see how that works. the o1 will be oil quenched. my hardness should be harder than the backyard heat treat cause of the elavated carbon settings. ill keep ya posted to how they turn out. then you can take a look and see what you think. -chris

[lathesmith]

That sounds good colby, .010 would be plenty. How did this affect diminsions? How about finish? I would think RC 50+ would be plenty hard, probably harder than I can get with my backyard method. Good work!
lathesmith

[colbyjack]

ill let you do the measurements and such. when i get done ill mail them back to you. -chris

[Buckshot]

............W-1 will harden to the point that it will make file teeth shiny :-) It also has a tendancy to shrink a bit, and thin sections can warp when quenching, or even crack.

..............Buckshot

[lathesmith]

I had assumed that the primary difference between W-1 and O-1 was that O-1would have less dimensional change after tempering than W-1, and that it also has better tempering qualities without the risk of damage that Buckshot describes. I can't tell any difference between the two when machining, both seem to machine equally well with either HSS or my TCMT carbide tools. Also, both of these steels get much hotter while machining than does cold- or hot- rolled steel. I know some of you large lathe guys will laugh, but I use oil and water as coolants while machining and drilling. I mainly use motor oil while drilling, and I apply water with a chip brush while machining the OD down to size. No, this ain't fancy, and it's not as efficient as either a mist or flood coolant setup, but it also isn't too messy , and it keeps the workpiece and tool MUCH cooler. I trashed a couple of TCMT inserts until I figured out they were running too hot; I haven't even dulled one since I started my water treatment. It works for me....
lathesmith

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Why not try some coolant, such as soluble oil mixed with water, for both? The oil will lubricate, and the water will cool the tool, allowing faster speeds. The only time I use straight oil, is for threading, kero for aluminum. When not using the coolant pump on my lathe, I use an acid brush in one of those plastic tip-proof bottles, or a windex-type spray bottle.
Morgan

[lathesmith]

Morgan, those are all good ideas. I'll probably order some of that water-soluable stuff from Enco, the next time I need to order from them. I was just using what I had available, and discovered that it really did help keep things running cooler and smoother. Even with those 3151 TCMT's, when I keep the metal cool and my speed higher I can get a decently smooth finish on that O-1. I probably won't go with a full flood coolant setup with my small lathe, but just using some from a brush or spray bottle would be a big improvement, without as much mess as the full flood treatment.
lathesmith

[Willbird]

The water hardening tool steel is more prone to cracking in heat treat, HOWEVER it is probably very well suited to a bullet sizer die.

I remember reading in a book about steels that you can PRESSURE quench a bushing or other part that does it's "work" on the inside of the hole. The rig to do it involved a water pipe, and a certain amount of "head pressure", IE the water would go up 6" or 12" from the pipe when the valve was opened...they had a jig that allowed you to QUICKLY set the part in then turn the water on....this makes the inner bore hard as the hinges of hell, and the metal gets progressively softer the deeper you go...which adds strength....this is an almost ideal situation for a drawing die......maybe overkill for a star bullet sizer die :-).

The key thing with a water hard steel is to avoid stress risers, and make the part symmetrical.....a star bullet sizer die might work out just fine....the lube holes MAY provide a location for it to crack ?? maybe not.

There are often a lot of "drops" of tool steels on Ebay.

Bill

[colbyjack]

the w-1 is a pain in the butt it will crack easy, it will crack if its too hot when it hits the water. you need still water no agitation and you need to get it in the temper ASAP. -chris

[Shotgun Luckey]

You still making the dies to support the site??

[lathesmith]

Yes, I am still making these dies, but I will be taking payment directly for awhile to help offset some of my equipment and tooling costs. Together with the guys on the forum, we have made a nice chunk of donations for the boards here. I wish to continue making these dies, and periodically making donations to the site in the future. Thanks for all the help and support!
lathesmith

[Cayoot]

You guys (who have the skills to be machinists) amaze me!

The skill seems more like magic then a trade. It looks facinating, but wayyyy beyond my grasp!

[colbyjack]

you shoulda got them back in the mail by now. howd they do chris? -chris

[lathesmith]

Hi Chris,
Sorry about that, I meant to send you a message earlier. Yes I did get them back, and they look beautiful. I will keep these as reference, and this info will give me a benchmark to refer to in the future.
I was also wondering, if you have a way of testing hardness, would it be too much trouble if I hardened a die using my torch method, and then sent it to you for a hardness check? I know, doing it the way I do they are going to vary some, but I think it would still be an interesting check. What do you think about this?
lathesmith

[colbyjack]

sure sendem, try to keep the heat even over the whole part and get it hot all the way thru. if your water quenching, room temp water is better than cold. toss it in there soon as you get off the torch. do not agiatate the water. still water quench is fine. 3/4 mins in the water is plenty. you def want to give these a temper. get a small lil counter top oven, at least a 350 temper, tool steel should get a double draw, but you can cheat it with a 3 hour temper. but these are small enough 1 hour should be fine. if you can get it hotter in the temper go for it. id say 500 or so. its not going to change the hardness.

let me know how much you want for a .452" die? i may be interested.

on one of them i cleaned it up with the fine bead blaster, it came out real dark in color. they are way over file hard so it didnt hurt it.

let me know if ya need anything else -chris

[cbrick]

lathesmith,

Haven't seen anything on this thread in a year, are you still making the dies?

Rick

[lathesmith]

Hi Rick,
Yes, I'm still making Star dies, and also punches, locknuts, and locknuts with setscrews. All kinds of great and interesting stuff for Stars!
lathesmith

[EDK]

Hi Rick,
Yes, I'm still making Star dies, and also punches, locknuts, and locknuts with setscrews. All kinds of great and interesting stuff for Stars!
lathesmith

And all of it first class. I need to order some more stuff, but a couple of moulds tempted me...the 12X20 reloading shed is progressing along...and a million other excuses.

Thanks again for the .431 and .361 dies for my STAR. The boolits are working well in my MARLIN Cowboy rifles and VAQUEROS alike.

:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

[RayinNH]

I think most oils will work well as a quench medium. However in a knife making book the author said he used peanut oil because it made his shop smell like he was baking cookies :smile:...Ray

[moses]

I used to use motor oil but read about using cooking oil to quench and I think it works great! It will make your shop smell like french fries though LOL!

Question on how you grind the final ID, is the stone you are using the exact size you need i.e. .452 for a 45 cal sizer? Can you explain how you are doing the final ID.

I just made a RCBS style sizer for myself because I didn't want to wait for one and getting the final ID was a long process as I drilled to .348 then used a boring bar to get to around .355 and then used 80 grit sand paper to get to within .0005 of final ID and then polished with 400 grit to get to the final .357 size.
I used a brass jag with the slot in it to hold the sand paper.

I also used 01 tool steel and hardened it but did not temper as I do not think it will break from lead being pushed through it and I wanted it hard as possible!

I sized a few hundred boolits in it and it seems to work great!

If I ever buy a Star sizer I will save myself the pain and buy yours!

Great job!

[lathesmith]

Moses, you pretty much have it down there. The boring bar is the tool you use to get close and then you can use a tool post grinder to finish it. Of course, you rough drill first, but as you know drilled holes aren't very smooth. If you are lucky enough to have a chucking reamer that is the right size, these can sometimes work pretty good too.
lathesmith

[blikseme300]

Thanks to all the posts and pictures on this forum I managed to make my own Star sizer dies. I am frugal, I mean cheap, so I scrounged around for materials to use. We use lots of 1" shaft stock at work for conveyor belts so this was what I used. (The scraps bin is a mine.)

I initially used non-stainless as it is easier to machine, but it does not polish well. So I switched to stainless. This is substantially tougher but machines smooth and polishes well. I have not hardened my dies and don't think they need to be as my molds throw boolits that are only slightly larger than required.

Here is a link to one of my pages for those who would like to see my efforts.

http://bliksemseplek.com/boolits.html

Bliksem

[Buckshot]

.............blikseme300, you have a neat website. I enjoyed both your cast boolit articles and the fine photographs. You do good work, and I agree the dies really don't need to be hardened. I do have one suggestion having to do with the grinding, and that is you REALLY should cover the bed of your lathe as the grit will do it no good at all. Even if you have way wipers on the carriage it isn't worth the possible damage.

A good way to do it is to use aluminum foil to cover any bed surface not traversed by the carriage during the op, and to cover the foil under the chuck with an oiled rag. The oiled rag will grab any abrasive grit.

............Buckshot

[lathesmith]

Nice website blik, looks like you are putting that mini-lathe to good use. The mini-mill is a good companion, and should help you in a variety of gun- and reloading- related projects.

lathesmith

[blikseme300]

Buckshot,

Thanks for your words of encouragement and advice. I switched to using collets because the grinding grit got into the 3-jaw headstock threads. Well, now I also know how to reassemble these.:-(

The use of an oiled rag and aluminum is a neat idea, thanks. I have made up a variation of this using oiled mutton cloth and 2 bungee cords. One end of the cloth is attached to the headstock end and the other to the tool post. So as the tool post moves the bed is protected as grinding bits are trapped in the oiled cloth. I will post a pic soon on how I did this.

Warning, I use this method with the collets only as the regular 3 & 4-jaw chucks could possible pick up the cloth and do bad things! I remember having my overall sleeve being caught in a head stock many years ago. I was lucky as the cloth was old and the sleeve just ripped. This was no mini lathe either. Being a lathe pretzel is not my idea of fun.

Lathesmith,

Thanks for your words of encouragement and advice as well. Our mutual interests and passions can only feed off of each other on this forum.

Bliksem