45 ACP small primer- when did it start.

[mjwcaster]

I thought that small primer was a newer thing with 45acp.

Sorting out a couple of k of 45's I just found a WCC 84 headstamp with small primer.

Pics didnt come out good enough to bother posting.

What is the oldest use of spp in 45acp you have seen?

Sent from my Z958 using Tapatalk

[azrednek]

"What is the oldest use of app in 45acp"

What is app??

Years ago I had some US GI 45ACP from the Frankford Arsenal dated in the 30's. A large pistol primer was to big and the small was loose. The FA brass' primer crimp was removed.

[randyrat]

I'm not sure when it started, but I save all the small primer 45 acp brass. If I ever run out of LPPs I can use SPPs.

I just sorted out 1500 pieces of 45 acp brass and found about 200 pieces of brass with 3 different head stamps with SPP pockets

( I think mjwcaster meant SPP and hit the "A" instead of the "S")

[6bg6ga]

I thought that small primer was a newer thing with 45acp.

Sorting out a couple of k of 45's I just found a WCC 84 headstamp with small primer.

Pics didnt come out good enough to bother posting.

What is the oldest use of app in 45acp you have seen?

Sent from my Z958 using Tapatalk

The first time I ran across the small primer abortions was in 84. They are supposed to provide more and better combustion according to what I have read and heard from others. It started with Non-toxic ammo produced for indoor range practice.* The primer uses a different primer compound, from what I have researched, not the old standard lead styphnate. I try to go thru all my 45acp brass before loading and sometimes miss one or two which causes a problem down the line. I generally try to trade my small primer 45acp brass for large primer brass.

[w5pv]

I use the small primer brass to shoot in my 45 acp convertible works well and it keeps it separate from large primered brass

[44man]

I found the LP was too much for the tiny case. Mostly in the revolver but also in the 1911.

[fredj338]

The first time I ran across the small primer abortions was in 84. They are supposed to provide more and better combustion according to what I have read and heard from others. It started with Non-toxic ammo produced for indoor range practice.* The primer uses a different primer compound, from what I have researched, not the old standard lead styphnate. I try to go thru all my 45acp brass before loading and sometimes miss one or two which causes a problem down the line. I generally try to trade my small primer 45acp brass for large primer brass.

No it is just cheaper. A sp will actually provide LESS brisance so you will actually get slightly poorer combustion of some powders. at least that is what my chrono tells me.

[mdi]

A few years ago I read a side by side test, using a few different powders and bullets, between large and small primed 45 ACP. Good article, and pretty extensive. Seemed the major difference was the small primed ammo was about 25-30 fps slower than large primed ammo with identical loads...

[fredj338]

A few years ago I read a side by side test, using a few different powders and bullets, between large and small primed 45 ACP. Good article, and pretty extensive. Seemed the major difference was the small primed ammo was about 25-30 fps slower than large primed ammo with identical loads...

This has been my exp with several powders as well.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

The first time I ran across the small primer abortions was in 84. They are supposed to provide more and better combustion according to what I have read and heard from others. It started with Non-toxic ammo produced for indoor range practice.* The primer uses a different primer compound, from what I have researched, not the old standard lead styphnate. I try to go thru all my 45acp brass before loading and sometimes miss one or two which causes a problem down the line. I generally try to trade my small primer 45acp brass for large primer brass.

I think that date is pretty close. I bought a box of 25 Speer flying ashtray loads 'way back when, and used them sparingly for carry because they were pricy. They had nickel plated cases, so I was able to keep track of them, and just finally finished them up about 5 years ago. Then I went to reload them and discovered the difference in primer size. I asked a shooting buddy if he'd ever run across .45 ACP with small primers and he had not. But, since that time they are becoming increasingly more common. Frankly, I don't see any difference in ignition or performance, and don't care at all which I use. I just take care to sort them out before starting to re-prime them, because trying to jam a large primer into a small hole can be disconcerting.

[Josh Smith]

I seem to recall that the .45acp was originally small primer.

Josh

[LakeviewBulldog]

It may be just me but I have a bunch of SPP 45 brass that I batch load separately and to me it seems that the brass is a lot cleaner after shooting. Not near as sooty and the primer pockets are actually much cleaner. If were any cheaper or more available I would convert over to all SPP. It would at least keep the brass hounds off my brass at the range.

[376Steyr]

SSP 45 brass is one of the reasons I don't run my Dillon 550 the way it was designed, empty case to loaded round in one cycle. Now I use one toolhead to produce primed cases, and run another to charge and seat bullets. It is a lot easier to sort out a jam from a mis-matched primer when you aren't dealing with dropping powder at the same time.

[runfiverun]

my testing has shown that the SP magnum primers work better than the standard and are actually a titch better than the LP primers.

if the small pistol primer had existed when the 45 was developed it would have probably been used.

[tomme boy]

During WWII the FA 45acp had its own med sized primer. And I think they were doomed also. It was meant so that the pistol primers would not get messed up with the Large rifle primers on the loading line.

[azrednek]

I seem to recall that the .45acp was originally small primer. Josh

During the 70's I bought up a bunch of 45ACP from a gun show ammo collector and vendor's estate. I did have some dating back to the teens. I believe the oldest was dated 1914. Friend bought up a few 1912 or 13's's on half moon clips. I reloaded every one I had at least once. Don't recall any having an oddball sized or small primers except the FA from the 30's.

One of the old timers from my gun club back in the 70's claimed. The FA arsenal manufactured their own primers while others used outsourced primers.

I'm just speculating. I assume since FA used their own mfd primers they could use what ever size they wanted. Others I assume had to use and manufacture their brass's pocket to fit the primer size that was available. Again, don't take what I posted as the gospel truth its my speculating.

[Iowa Fox]

I found my very first one about 2005 or 6 in some range pick ups. It was just one case in several hundred it picked up. I knew they existed so I put it in a coffee can by itself. After a couple years I had a coffee can full of them. I actually prefer them for the ACP because I don't have to change the priming set up on the Dillon to run them.

[beagle]

As I recall, you're correct. The original .45 ACP was loaded with small pistol. Then, the government switched to a special size often referred to as the Frankfort Arsenal primer. This was a hassle logistics wise so they standardized on the LP size and this was gospel until they started messing with the non-toxic stuff.

I have found that comparing SP to LP loads that LP loads give a higher velocity and also indicate higher pressure signs for a given bullet load. In messing with cast loads in the .45 Blackhawk convertible in the heavier bullet ranges, I was able to get away with higher velocity loads with heavier bullets with less signs of high pressure in the SP cases.

When I noticed this I did a little reading and looked at two different cartridges that were using small primers out of the norm for the caliber. The .454 Casull and the higher end, high velocity loads for the .45/70.

Evidently, these companies have done the required pressure testing and have gone this route based on the results.

While I have never seen this discussed extensively, my testing and the resulting two high pressure loads marketed commercially seems to indicate that there is something to the theory.

I know that high velocity loads in the .45 ACP may not be the main interest of many, but the capability is there particularity in the Blackhawk convertible.

Kind of makes you wonder what would happen if the .44 Magnum was available with SP pockets./beagle


QUOTE=Josh Smith;3963281]I seem to recall that the .45acp was originally small primer.

Josh[/QUOTE]

[NavyVet1959]

I know that high velocity loads in the .45 ACP may not be the main interest of many, but the capability is there particularity in the Blackhawk convertible.

Agreed... I've shot my .45 SUPER +P+ (.460 Rowland loading, but using .45ACP brass) in a Ruger Bisley Blackhawk and it handled it just fine. That's around 1000 ft-lbs.

[6bg6ga]

Just dug out a loaded military 45acp date marked 17 U.S.C.C.O. which would be 1917 and it has a large primer.

[Texas by God]

Small and large pistol primers were both in use in 1905 when the .45 ACP was born. They used large pistol primers because it was a large pistol. And I feel it should stay that way. Best, Thomas.

[6bg6ga]

Small and large pistol primers were both in use in 1905 when the .45 ACP was born. They used large pistol primers because it was a large pistol. And I feel it should stay that way. Best, Thomas.


Please provide the link to small primers in 1905.

[randyrat]

"Kind of makes you wonder what would happen if the .44 Magnum was available with SP pockets./beagle"

I have some Hornady brass that utilized SPP in the 44 mag

[6bg6ga]

The only reference to 1905 I can find is that Browning first started working on the 45acp in 1905.

[fatelvis]

I like the idea for my range ammo. I can switch from 38/357 and 9mm on my Dillon 550 without messing with changing the priming slide and tube. Personally, I don't think that I'm a good enough shot, or am involved in serious competition, that I would notice any advantages in accuracy that a LPP MIGHT provide over a SPP.

[6bg6ga]

If I had a large quantity of the small primer cases I would no doubt use them as it would cut out one more step in the change over on my Dillon 650.

[mdi]

FWIW; someone mentioned they would use small primers is enough small primed brass was available. http://www.diamondkbrass.com/.45-ACP-S.-PRIMER-100.html Found a couple others besides this one...

[Outpost75]

All the early .45 ACP collector ammo I have has either a large (.210"), or the Frankford Arsenal 0.206" diameter primer. I have never seen a US example of small primer .45 ACP factory ammunition manufactured before 1980. If somebody can show one I would appreciate a photo of the headstamp.
Here are some typical early .45 ACP rounds, all large primer:

188990188991188992188993188994188995

Modern use of small primers in .45 ACP ammunition was brought about by the need for nontoxic range ammo with lead free primers. The small primer pocket was used as a manufacturing expedient so that the ammunition factories only needed to produce one size of nontoxic, lead-free primer for use in all calibers of handgun training ammunition in .38 Special, 9mm Para, .40 S&W and .45 ACP. The small primer also serves as positive identification of nontoxic .45 ACP work-in-progress ammunition moving through the plant.

In my .45 ACP testing a small pistol magnum primer produces the same pressure, velocity and accuracy as a standard large pistol primer.

Using standard small pistol primers with H&G #68 200-grain SWC bullets and 5 grains of Bullseye powder, the velocity drop over a large primer of the same manufacture is about 40-50 fps. When using standard small pistol primers and Bullseye powder to obtain the same velocity as obtained with the large primer, simply increase the powder charge by 0.2-0.3 grain of Bullseye.

[matrixcs]

About 5 or 6 years ago CCI changed the blazer brass from large to small primer.
I know that is not the earliest but it does tell you that sorting by headstamp alone is not always enough.

[tomme boy]

Not all of the blazer is SP. I find the LP blazer all the time. Not just one or two but boxes of them. The rumor was the SP was for California and no lead. I had some NT labeled Win brass from around 2000. That was the earliest I found them.

[dragon813gt]

I don't mind separating large from small. Well it's not my favorite chore but it's an easy one. The problem is the NT brass. Some brands have enlarged flash holes. This goes beyond just the 45acp. But it means a lot more sorting before loading.

[anotherred]

Can anyone tell me about this brass. Reads FN 45 65 It has a SPP with a 3 way military crimp

189047

[azrednek]

Can anyone tell me about this brass. Reads FN 45 65 It has a SPP with a 3 way military crimp

Just a guess, Fabrique Nationale 45 caliber 1965 vintage. Is it actually a small pistol boxer primer or could it possibly be Berdan primed??

During the 70 and early 80's I used to buy plenty of various calibers of FN marked surplus ammo at gun shows. I don't recall for certain but don't believe I came across any FN that were Boxer primed.

[Texas by God]

Please provide the link to small primers in 1905.
No link but .32acp, all .32 revolver rounds, .30 & 9mm Luger all used spp before the .45 ACP CARTRIDGE was developed for trials. I think but could be wrong that .38 Special, .38 ACP, & .357 magnum all started out with Lpp then were changed later to spp. Best, Thomas.

[ioon44]

Can anyone tell me about this brass. Reads FN 45 65 It has a SPP with a 3 way military crimp

189047

I found one of these stamped FN 45 55, looks to me like it was originally Berdan primed and then some one drilled out the pocket out to use a boxer small pistol primer.

Nice thing about SP .45 brass is free brass a lot of shooters just leave it in the ground or give it away.

I reload with WSPM primers and get the same results as WLP, makes the change of 9 mm to .45 quicker on my Dillon 550.

[Shiloh]

Seems like Blazer was the original SP primer maker.

Shiloh

[44man]

"Kind of makes you wonder what would happen if the .44 Magnum was available with SP pockets./beagle"

I have some Hornady brass that utilized SPP in the 44 mag
Not good. I never use a mag primer in the .44 but the SP is not enough, could be like the SR in a .454. I don't think it was non toxic primers, I think CCI found a SP was better in the tiny case, like I did. Group size difference was amazing from a revolver.
Like federal that never used a LP mag in the .44. Still really a small case.

[azrednek]

I found one of these stamped FN 45 55, looks to me like it was originally Berdan primed and then some one drilled out the pocket out to use a boxer small pistol primer.

Not trying to jump way off topic. Back in the mid-70's a shooting bud and I tried drilling out some Berdan primed primer pockets. Pretty much unsuccessful. With three channels the expended primers usually backed out.

[Walter Laich]

SSP 45 brass is one of the reasons I don't run my Dillon 550 the way it was designed, empty case to loaded round in one cycle. Now I use one toolhead to produce primed cases, and run another to charge and seat bullets. It is a lot easier to sort out a jam from a mis-matched primer when you aren't dealing with dropping powder at the same time.

I do something similar:
take off the head and remove all the dies (sq deal here)
replace with head that just has deprimer rod
run brass through to deprime then into wet tumbler.
after dry will sort according to primer pocket
this gives me clean brass and chance to see clearly size of pocket
...still mess up sorting now and then :p

[mummer1973]

I reload on a dillon 550b. i bought some used 45acp brass with spp. i did this so i didn't have to change the primer tube and pocket.
i cant tell you how many times i put the small primers in the large tube and the tumbled every which way down the tube.

[Texas by God]

I can see the point for the Dillon angle. But Luddites with Rockchuckers like me want all my .45s to take large pistol primers. So I sold or gave away every spp .45 I could find at my house. Best, Thomas.

[anotherred]

I checked and it IS Berdan primed. I never though to check for that. Whats funny is out of the thousands of 45's I've picked, and deprimed I just happen to pick this one out before trying to deprime it and as it turns out good thing I did.

189147

[6bg6ga]

No link but .32acp, all .32 revolver rounds, .30 & 9mm Luger all used spp before the .45 ACP CARTRIDGE was developed for trials. I think but could be wrong that .38 Special, .38 ACP, & .357 magnum all started out with Lpp then were changed later to spp. Best, Thomas.

I can go back to 1911 and its large primer. I have one 1911 and a dozen 1917 45acp rounds and all are large primer.

I sincerely doubt they ever went the way of a small primer in 1905. The round if memory is correct was supposed to be a replacement for the 45LC round. The military wanted something with roughly to power of the black powder round. The 1911 was originally designed by Browning again if memory is correct in 41 caliber and was re-designed to the 45acp.

My particular experience/experiences takes me to 1984 for the small primer 45acp round that I have been cussing ever since.

[TexasGrunt]

I can see the point for the Dillon angle. But Luddites with Rockchuckers like me want all my .45s to take large pistol primers. So I sold or gave away every spp .45 I could find at my house. Best, Thomas.

I must be a Luddite with a 650. I want all my .45 ACP brass to be LPP. Right now my 650 is dedicated to .45 ACP, I have a .44 Mag conversion but don't shoot enough of that to bother even setting it up. Now if I had a 10mm conversion....again large pistol primer.

[beagle]

Would be interesting to run some comparison loads with that between large and small primer pockets. I'll bet it shows less pressure signs. Run it if you have time and let us know the results./beagle


"Kind of makes you wonder what would happen if the .44 Magnum was available with SP pockets./beagle"

I have some Hornady brass that utilized SPP in the 44 mag

[tankgunner59]

I have a friend on another forum who is in the midst of a .400 Corbon project. So I save any 45 Auto SPP for him.

[shooterg]

First ones I saw were the aluminum cased CCI . Then I started looking and found that aluminum CCI with large primers were Berdan primed, but the small were Boxer. So being cheap, I reloaded some - got 4 loads out of most and I think the splits mostly occured when expanding and seating. See quite a few brass CCI and Fed now, I give those away, but I keep the aluminum for the times I let others shoot my toys(loaded with not-quite-good-nuff H&G 68's), 'cause I don't feel bad about not finding 'em !

[44man]

Would be interesting to run some comparison loads with that between large and small primer pockets. I'll bet it shows less pressure signs. Run it if you have time and let us know the results./beagle
No, the .44 thrives on a LP standard. Mags too much but the tiny ACP is different.
Joe, the loader of the fore skin .444 shell bought Federal loads at Walmart, 1/2 were sp and the other LP. I said let's test so he shot. Both not good but he found the scope was loose. Base screws almost falling out. I fixed it so it will be another day to see. The ACP case is very small and it is case size that determines the primer. He wanted to adjust the scope and I told him you are nuts, the scope is flopping all over. Marlin semi rifle. Scope was so loose it could mean a foot at 50.