Roto metals 1/40 mix

[deep creek]

Has anybody shot this mix in heavy conicals? It says the bhn is 8.5. Thinking of casting some up in the lee 500 sw mould then paper patching them to shoot out of my whites. I usualy just cast the pure lead from roto metal and add 500 grains of shot like ron which shoots great.but being bored spitless i want to experiment.what say yee?

[54bore]

Has anybody shot this mix in heavy conicals? It says the bhn is 8.5. Thinking of casting some up in the lee 500 sw mould then paper patching them to shoot out of my whites. I usualy just cast the pure lead from roto metal and add 500 grains of shot like ron which shoots great.but being bored spitless i want to experiment.what say yee?

I have not used this, but have looked at it Roto's website, if i were to order ingots this is most definitely what i would get due to the BH, I think Buffalo Arms carries this as well?

[idahoron]

The problem with the 8.5 BHN is the paper is going to strip off. I know that for a fact.

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/Muzzleloaders/Coreysbullets.jpg

[54bore]

Ron, when you tested my bullets they were 9 to 9.5 BHN, i have never stripped a paper like that on my .50, and i am sizing down to .498 vs your .501

[54bore]

Ron, i suspect something in your die, lead smear, oil that is dried, something foreign? I would thoroughly clean your sizing die with solvent to make sure it is 100% clean, then send that wrapped 8.5 BHN bullet back thru, id bet ANYTHING it wont strip another paper! The way we are dry sizing it is imperative that the inside of the sizing die be thoroughly clean, silky smooth slick. In my opinion these S&W .500 bullets we are using should be sent thru the sizer alone the first trip, then wrapped and sent back through. Straight out of the mold they are around. .503ish, ad 2 wraps of 9# onion skin and that jumps you up to .511, sending .511 through a .498-.501 sizing die is a HELL of a strain on the paper and just begging to strip it off! This isnt a problem with the 11mm rifle bullets we use in our .45s since those bullets drop from the mold undersize or there abouts, all you are doing is giving the paper a good squeeze to the bullet, The .500 S&W bullet is a whole different deal!

Here are mine at 9 to 9.5 BHN, Same exact bullet as yours above. Mine were sized alone 1 time straight out of the mold, Die taken out and THOROUGHLY cleaned, then 2 Wraps of 9# onion skin and sent back through. Works like a dream, and shoots like one to!!

188885

[54bore]

If all goes well with my new Custom .54 Cal Paper Patch mold i will be having a Custom .50 Cal mold made as well in Steel/Iron, it will be a single cavity .492-.493 body diameter, The cheap Lee S&W 500 works great, but i would prefer a similiar bullet with the wide Meplat that drops from the mold at .492-493 VS .503, Just no need to have to size the bullet itself when paper patching it, just makes it tough on the paper! My plan is to have this one slimmed down to .492-.493 and slightly lengthened, i would like it to weigh around 475 to 500 Grains Max. At .492-.493 with 2 wraps of 9# onion skin paper that takes you up to .500-.501, then a trip through my .499 will be SLEAZY EASY, doing nothing more than snugging the paper up to the bullet. I have read several claim that best accuracy is usually found at 1-2 thou under bore, plus i prefer a little stiffer loading bullet, to ease my mind that it wont back off the charge if traveling up a rough logging rd barrel down
188949

[OverMax]

No harm in experimenting.
1-30 lead recipe has a 8 BHN ____3% tin 97% soft lead.
1-20 ______________10 BHN ___5% tin 95% soft lead.
1-40____________6 or 7 BHN___2-1/2%__ 97-1/2% soft lead
Don't have Tin on hand. Browse a Goodwill Store and buy a old picture frame or a German beer mug made with pewter. Pewter is 85 to 99% tin.

[idahoron]

Ron, i suspect something in your die, lead smear, oil that is dried, something foreign? I would thoroughly clean your sizing die with solvent to make sure it is 100% clean, then send that wrapped 8.5 BHN bullet back thru, id bet ANYTHING it wont strip another paper! The way we are dry sizing it is imperative that the inside of the sizing die be thoroughly clean, silky smooth slick. In my opinion these S&W .500 bullets we are using should be sent thru the sizer alone the first trip, then wrapped and sent back through. Straight out of the mold they are around. .503ish, ad 2 wraps of 9# onion skin and that jumps you up to .511, sending .511 through a .498-.501 sizing die is a HELL of a strain on the paper and just begging to strip it off! This isnt a problem with the 11mm rifle bullets we use in our .45s since those bullets drop from the mold undersize or there abouts, all you are doing is giving the paper a good squeeze to the bullet, The .500 S&W bullet is a whole different deal!

Here are mine at 9 to 9.5 BHN, Same exact bullet as yours above. Mine were sized alone 1 time straight out of the mold, Die taken out and THOROUGHLY cleaned, then 2 Wraps of 9# onion skin and sent back through. Works like a dream, and shoots like one to!!

188885

Until I sized those bullets for a guy I met on line my mould had never stripped paper and had never been in contact with lead. It is clean. But since that first time it stripped paper it has don't it again on harder lead.

If your mould is throwing .503 two wraps of 9# is going to be .006 it should be at .509 maybe your paper is thicker?
Measure your bullets laying down in the jaws of the micrometer. Then rotate the bullet a bit and measure. Keep doing it all the way around. My .501 mould does not throw a perfect round bullet. mine varies .003 as I turn them around. Getting a bullet that is a little more consistent would be good as long as the twist rate handles it. It will be interesting to see how the 1-28 will handle 500 grains. I would think it should.

[idahoron]

No harm in experimenting.
1-30 lead recipe has a 8 BHN ____3% tin 97% soft lead.
1-20 ______________10 BHN ___5% tin 95% soft lead.
1-40____________6 or 7 BHN___2-1/2%__ 97-1/2% soft lead
Don't have Tin on hand. Browse a Goodwill Store and buy a old picture frame or a German beer mug made with pewter. Pewter is 85 to 99% tin.

If your lead is 6 to 7 BHN for the 1-40 lead mix then they should be fine. It sure would be easier to make bullets then home brewing every batch to be exact hardness like I do.

[54bore]

Ron, i had never checked the concentricity of these bullets til now, mine are not perfectly round either, i just checked 2 different bullets, the smallest point is 501.5, and the largest point is 504, my paper doubled is .004 (so this stuff is thicker than yours) so the smallest point with a bullet wrapped with 2 wraps of my paper would be .509.5 and the Largest point being .512
I roll my bullets across a lube pad just like i was gonna resize brass (makes the trip through the sizing die REALLY EASY, Tip from Lee Shaver) then run them through the .498 sizing die, then clean the inside of the sizing die REALLY good, wipe all the bullets off really good, then wrap my 2 wraps of paper and then back through the sizing die. This process is a bit more time consuming but works flawlessly.

188930

[54bore]

The only time i have ever tore a paper and it looked identical to the bullet in your picture was with my .36 Cal, i bought some cast bullets for .357 with the plans of doing the 2 wrap and size method above, my sizing die is a Lee .358 push through. The bullets were pre lubed so i boiled a pot of water let cool a bit and added the bullets to melt the lube away, it appeared to work great. I dried the bullets good and ran them through the .358 die, then added the 2 wraps of 9# onion skin (i made a paper patch template for .36) when i pushed the first one through it stripped the paper off (looked identical to your bullet above) even tho I thought i had removed all of the lube in the simmering hot water it actually hadn't, there was stil a slight film on the bullets, this film ended up inside my sizing die and was tacky, therefore grabbing the paper and stripping it when i tried pushing them through. I cleaned the inside of the die really good and that was the end of the problem, the paper patched bullets slid through like butter

[54bore]

No harm in experimenting.
1-30 lead recipe has a 8 BHN ____3% tin 97% soft lead.
1-20 ______________10 BHN ___5% tin 95% soft lead.
1-40____________6 or 7 BHN___2-1/2%__ 97-1/2% soft lead
Don't have Tin on hand. Browse a Goodwill Store and buy a old picture frame or a German beer mug made with pewter. Pewter is 85 to 99% tin.

According to Rotometals 1-40 has a Brinell Hardness of 8.5

[OverMax]

http://www.lasc.us/castbulletnotes.htm


http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletAlloy.htm

[54bore]

http://www.lasc.us/castbulletnotes.htm


Awesome link OverMax! Whole lot of confusing to me tho! LOL

[54bore]

It will be interesting to see how the 1-28 will handle 500 grains. I would think it should.

I will be testing this as soon as the snow melts, these bullets are .492 diameter and measure 1.225 long, they weigh 550 Grains

188967

[deep creek]

cast up a bunch of the one in forty mix boolits for my fifty ,kept all between 447 and 449grs sized them in my .496 sizer die wrapped them and sized them again.no paper tears they look good. now to see how they shoot.

[54bore]

cast up a bunch of the one in forty mix boolits for my fifty ,kept all between 447 and 449grs sized them in my .496 sizer die wrapped them and sized them again.no paper tears they look good. now to see how they shoot.

Good deal! Keep us posted on your shooting! Even tho i complain about the Lee S&W 501-440 Bullet the simple fact is it shoots goods!! I just wish it was .492-.493 instead of .501-.504, I dont like having to size the bullet itself when paper patching, there is a reason Paper Patch bullets and PP molds are under bore size, you wrap the paper up to size, instead of the exact opposite by smashing it on. But again, it works, and actually works REALLY good, my Stainless GM LRH .50 shoots this bullet like nobody's business! But me being a tinkerer i am constantly messing with stuff, And i will most definitely be having a Custom PP Mold built for my .50 Cal, one that looks very similar to the Lee .500 S&W Bullet with a decent Meplat. I recently ruined a .448 Custom sizing die by opening it up to .451-452, my intention was 1 thousandth .449 was my goal (I'm an over achiever ya see! LOL) To me the bullets load to easy, if i were bench rest shooting I wouldn't care if the bullet fell down the barrel and bounced off the powder charge, my intentions with rifles are both target, and hunting, I would NEVER EVER trust a bullet that slides down the barrel by the weight of the Ramrod alone in a hunting situation, i would constantly fear the bullet backing off the powder charge and blowing my gun up! How does a kinetic bullet puller work? By the weight of the bullet! You take a 450 Grain bullet that slides down a barrel with little to no resistance, put it in your Truck/ATV barrel down (like 99.9 percent of us do) and drive up an old rough logging rd bouncing through chug holes etc. I WOULD NEVER EVER TRUST IT! I would constantly be checking that the bullet had not backed off the powder charge, i DONT wanna have to do this when i am hunting!! It costed me an extra 95.00 bucks to reorder 2 new push through sizing dies, i went with .449 for my .45 Cal, and .499 for my .50 Cal, I look at it as Cheap piece at mind that my bullets wont back off the powder charge and possibly blow my guns up. Guys like Lee Shavers, George Gomph, etc. etc. etc. swear that 1, 1.5, 2 thousandth under bore is where you will likely find your best accuracy. There's my .02 Cents for the day

[idahoron]

cast up a bunch of the one in forty mix boolits for my fifty ,kept all between 447 and 449grs sized them in my .496 sizer die wrapped them and sized them again.no paper tears they look good. now to see how they shoot.

No tearing is a good thing but I see you sized the lead to .496 before you wrapped them. Then you said you wrapped them and sized them again. Did you size again to .496?
I have a .496 die that I use to size harder lead than 7 BHN. I got it to eliminate the paper stripping issue I was seeing with hard lead. I did size again to .496 but quit sizing that small for a finished bullet. I was on an elk hunt and had my rifle in a gun boot. The bullet slid back down the barrel due to the bouncing of the ATV on rough roads.
I still use the .496 to size hard lead but after the wrap I size to .501 still. That size holds well in the gun boot.
If you did wrap and size again to .496 unwrap one and measure the bullet to see what it is.

[idahoron]

Good deal! Keep us posted on your shooting! Even tho i complain about the Lee S&W 501-440 Bullet the simple fact is it shoots goods!! I just wish it was .492-.493 instead of .501-.504, I dont like having to size the bullet itself when paper patching, there is a reason Paper Patch bullets and PP molds are under bore size, you wrap the paper up to size, instead of the exact opposite by smashing it on. But again, it works, and actually works REALLY good, my Stainless GM LRH .50 shoots this bullet like nobody's business! But me being a tinkerer i am constantly messing with stuff, And i will most definitely be having a Custom PP Mold built for my .50 Cal, one that looks very similar to the Lee .500 S&W Bullet with a decent Meplat. I recently ruined a .448 Custom sizing die by opening it up to .451-452, my intention was 1 thousandth .449 was my goal (I'm an over achiever ya see! LOL) To me the bullets load to easy, if i were bench rest shooting I wouldn't care if the bullet fell down the barrel and bounced off the powder charge, my intentions with rifles are both target, and hunting, I would NEVER EVER trust a bullet that slides down the barrel by the weight of the Ramrod alone in a hunting situation, i would constantly fear the bullet backing off the powder charge and blowing my gun up! How does a kinetic bullet puller work? By the weight of the bullet! You take a 450 Grain bullet that slides down a barrel with little to no resistance, put it in your Truck/ATV barrel down (like 99.9 percent of us do) and drive up an old rough logging rd bouncing through chug holes etc. I WOULD NEVER EVER TRUST IT! I would constantly be checking that the bullet had not backed off the powder charge, i DONT wanna have to do this when i am hunting!! It costed me an extra 95.00 bucks to reorder 2 new push through sizing dies, i went with .449 for my .45 Cal, and .499 for my .50 Cal, I look at it as Cheap piece at mind that my bullets wont back off the powder charge and possibly blow my guns up. Guys like Lee Shavers, George Gomph, etc. etc. etc. swear that 1, 1.5, 2 thousandth under bore is where you will likely find your best accuracy. There's my .02 Cents for the day

I am the odd, .001 I guess. I have never traveled with my gun pointing down in a truck. I have always worried about dirt on the floor having a negative affect on the crown of the barrel. I have always had mine ride muzzle up to protect it.
I had a bullet slide back down the barrels one time in all the years I have been hunting. I have been shooting black powder rifles since I was 10 when I got my first rifle. That was the instance above with the ATV, when I sized to .496 after wrapping. I am sure that if I would have had a factory Lyman bullet or a factory Hornady those would have probably came back out too. The gun boot on ATV's is rough on guns and I have quit using them. I have had too many times that scoped rifles have been off after riding in them.
For all my guns I use a gun sleeve and strap them down to my pack on the front of my bike. I normally have them with the muzzle slightly elevated. This picture is how I carry them on my ATV.
My son is carrying his 50 straight up and down with the muzzle down on his bike. Those are sized to .501 and never come off the powder, never.

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/2016%20mule%20deer/20161001_115250_zpsa9nukgal.jpg

I carry them in the field with either the sling with muzzle up or I carry with the rifle on my shoulder with the barrel forward.
My 45 bullets are sized to .446 and they are just snug going down the weight of a solid brass range rod will push it down. While I do take precautions when traveling and carrying to make sure I don't bounce it with the muzzle down. I do check once and a while that the bullet is seated, and it has never been off. It is a good habit even if the bullets are tight. An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure thing.
I should get a .449 sizer but to be honest if something is not broken why fix it. I trust the load and gun the way I use them, and trust in the load and gun is the most important part of being successful with any rifle.

[54bore]

Excellent post Ron!! Being confident in your gear is a MAJOR part of this sport!! You have this system down to an art, and have proven this method time n time again, it works for you, and works DARN GOOD, nobody can ever argue that FACT!! I am not trying to reinvent the wheel by doing things somewhat different, i want the same confidence in my gear as you have in yours, and in order for me to get that i have to change things up a bit to get there. You were my original inspiration in this and i have the Utmost Respect for you! You and i arent just acquaintances anymore, we are friends! You have been here, you see how brushy this country is, i like to use a sling when it allows so i can get the weight off of my arm and allow to rest while im walking, but a sling gets used VERY LITTLE, its to brushy to walk the distances and terrain i do with a barrel sticking up getting hung up on/in the brush, i pack my rifle barrel down and guide it through the brush. In my truck my rifle stays in a Zippered case, unzipped and open, barrel down, that way my rifle is fully protected and stil easy to grab it and bail out if need be.

[deep creek]

ron the unwrapped bullet looks like.490. you think i should size to .496 wrap then size to .501? I'm shooting these in my whites and they haven't came off the powder ever.and they are accurate as can be .but I'm talking about the pure lead and 500 grs of shot per 5lbs of lead like you pour.this 1/40 is something I'm trying because i need something to do.maybe make some of each and see how they go down and how they shoot.and as usual picking your brain.

[idahoron]

That was what I thought it would be .006 under. To be honest I would not finish size to .496 since you have the .501 that is what I would finish size with. I bet the whites would do fine with the .501 finish size. The .501 last step would just press the paper. If I had a .499 I would probably go to that but I haven't pulled that trigger yet. 54Bore sized some to .498 this fall and I am going to try them to see how they fit.

[deep creek]

thanks Ron ill try that.