View Full Version : winchester/miroku 1886 ?
Looking to get a used winchester/miroku 1886, and have been reading about not having any throats to speak of and made to saami specs. So does that mean it is for a 500gr gov. boolit or is that to big?
Thanks Scott
Chill Wills
02-22-2017, 04:23 PM
I have had one for 20 years. There are lots and lots and lots of bullets of all weights that work fine. The old 45 Gov. chamber is as good as it ever was.
Chili
02-22-2017, 06:56 PM
I just got one a few weeks ago and really like it...a lot. Yes, the throat is short, but it still works!
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2ndAmendmentNut
03-01-2017, 12:34 PM
I've got two Browning/Miroku 1886s. I trim my new brass to spec (can't remember the length off the top of my head) and load 405gr hollow base boolits to the crimp groove. I also shoot paper patched boolits. No issues cycling or chambering. Certain WFN (wide flat nosed) designs do engrave the rifling slightly, but the bolt locks up without issue. If you do end up with a 45-70 that has throat issues there are a number of smiths capable of re-cutting the chamber.
Looking to get a used winchester/miroku 1886, and have been reading about not having any throats to speak of and made to saami specs. So does that mean it is for a 500gr gov. boolit or is that to big?
Thanks Scott
I have not had any trouble loading bullets up to 500 grains, but none were of the wide flatnose type. The twist rate of the miroku is 1 in 22'', and although the 500 grain bullets were accurate to 100 yds, the bullets struck the target sideways. I think 500 grains is too much for the 22'' twist. 300 to 405 grain bullets work best for me.
I've had a couple of Win/Miroku 45-70 guns in both High Wall and Lever/1886. All had short throats and would not chamber certain bullets. I had Turnbull run their chamber reamer in them and that solved the problem without effecting accuracy one bit. They all shot the 400g bullets much better than the lighter bullets. I never tried anything over 460g, but they shot very well. No big deal getting it reamed if you find bullets jamming in the rifling as you try to close the lever.
Chill Wills
03-03-2017, 07:29 PM
I had to drill and tap my receiver to mount the Lyman receiver sight. I like it for this rifle. Tang sights are cooler but this is for max use and the receiver is best for me.
Bullets in the 400g range are great in this rifle. Lyman 457 193 is classic and casts at about 415g or so. RCBS 400 gas check works fine. Lyman 457 102 GC if you can find one works and is on the heavy end of options, 455gr mine is.
I shoot a lot of Lyman 457 124 (402gr in my alloy) only because I have a 4-cavity mold that casts easy and produces a lot of good bullets fast.
The Lyman Gould shoots well in mine and only weighs 330gr
There are many others. The Lee plain base 405 works but I sold it as well as the old Lee HP version of that same bullet.
missionary5155
03-03-2017, 08:38 PM
Greetings
Have a 26 inch octagon now in 50 Alaskan and a Light Weight still in 45-70. Have had both many years and both are well made and fine to hunt with. Only have loaded up to the 420 grainers as there just is nothing about that needs a heavier slug. all other weights shoot very well. The groove is a real .457 so any mold casts fat enough.
Only issue I know of is that lousy rebounding hammer. I would not wait till it gives you an issue. Very easy to fix forever. Done enough of them that 30 minutes would be a long time. The first time it fails to fire will not be the last. Have no regrets "fixing" all of them. Have never had a light hammer strike since.
Also installed receiver sights on them. Yes you have to drill and tap but it is no harder than any other hole to drill and tap. Well worth the time.
Mike in Peru
Thanks guys, I got it last weekend and was thinking I wanted a tang sight on it but now I don't know.
Flinchrock
03-06-2017, 06:06 AM
Wilson FP aperture sight will do what you need and your receiver should already be drilled and tapped for them.
Chill Wills
03-08-2017, 01:04 AM
Wilson FP aperture sight will do what you need and your receiver should already be drilled and tapped for them.
To my knowledge none are D&T either on the tang nor the receiver. The rifle owner has to arrange for that.
The new made sights work Okay.
An old time used off ebay steel Lyman receiver sight is better built than the new aluminum sights - just my opinion.
square butte
03-08-2017, 09:56 AM
Every Winchester/Miroku 1886 I have seen was D&T'ed for a receiver sight. My 1886 lightweight came that way as well. There may be some that are not - But some certainly came that way.
square butt is correct, they are all D&T on the side of the receiver and will accept a number of different sights. You can even put a red dot on the gun using a mount that Turnbull makes for these guns (I tried one of those myself and it worked GREAT). Used a Burris FF3 which was small and un-obtrusive. The holes are on the left side of the receiver.
Chill Wills
03-08-2017, 10:39 AM
square butt is correct, they are all D&T on the side of the receiver and will accept a number of different sights. You can even put a red dot on the gun using a mount that Turnbull makes for these guns (I tried one of those myself and it worked GREAT). Used a Burris FF3 which was small and un-obtrusive. The holes are on the left side of the receiver.
They are NOT all D&T. Mine was not nor any of the era of the ones we shot in the matches on the late 1990's. Some may be at some point and some model variations may well have been that I have not owned.
That is why I said "to my knowledge"
We had to drill a bunch of them. It was a popular rifle for our matches we held in Rifle, Colorado back in that time.
Chill Wills is correct, the newer ones do. The used one I bought last Friday is a pistol grip and is not D&T.
The ones that aren't D&T are probably the BPCR rifles made for the target shooting crown. Most of those had pistol grips and Badger barrels. There's a big difference between them and most of the Win/Miroku guns sold. They were also about fifty percent higher in price and usually had better wood. If the gun the OP is looking at is a BPCR is won't have the DT on the side. If it's a non pistol grip model with a round barrel it should be DT.
Edit: it looks like Winchester/Miroku is making the new production with Oct barrels which are DT as well as the round barrel short model.
http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/rifles/model-1886/model-1886s-in-current-production.html
The ones that aren't D&T are probably the BPCR rifles made for the target shooting crown. Most of those had pistol grips and Badger barrels. There's a big difference between them and most of the Win/Miroku guns sold. They were also about fifty percent higher in price and usually had better wood. If the gun the OP is looking at is a BPCR is won't have the DT on the side. If it's a non pistol grip model with a round barrel it should be DT.
NSB I'm the OP and the rifle I was looking at I bought, it does have a pistol grip 26 inch octagon barrel and is not D&T but the wood doesn't look like anything upgraded. I have heard of the 1885's being made in a BPCR but not a 1886, how can I tell for sure? I tried doing a search for the serial number but can't come up with anything.
Thanks Scott
Old-Win
03-08-2017, 01:08 PM
1886 Miroku Winchester pistol grip with standard Miroku barrel. Badger did not make barrels for the 1886 Miroku, only the 85' BPCR.
http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/51507_600x400.jpg (http://www.jpgbox.com/page/51507_600x400/)
1886 Miroku Winchester pistol grip with standard Miroku barrel. Badger did not make barrels for the 1886 Miroku, only the 85' BPCR.
http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/51507_600x400.jpg (http://www.jpgbox.com/page/51507_600x400/)
Yep that's what mine looks like. Is the MVA 130 sight, and how do you like it?
Old-Win
03-08-2017, 01:20 PM
No, it's a Parts Unknown Walker style with the base reversed. An excellent and well made sight but I don't think it is available any more. As Chill Will mentioned for a receiver sight, look for an older steel made sight as the aluminum ones aren't nearly as repeatable. This is a 71' Browning Miroku with an older steel Redfield and target knobs.
http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/51508_600x400.jpg (http://www.jpgbox.com/page/51508_600x400/)
Chill Wills
03-08-2017, 02:18 PM
The ones that aren't D&T are probably the BPCR rifles made for the target shooting crown. Most of those had pistol grips and Badger barrels. There's a big difference between them and most of the Win/Miroku guns sold. They were also about fifty percent higher in price and usually had better wood. If the gun the OP is looking at is a BPCR is won't have the DT on the side. If it's a non pistol grip model with a round barrel it should be DT.
Edit: it looks like Winchester/Miroku is making the new production with Oct barrels which are DT as well as the round barrel short model.
http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/rifles/model-1886/model-1886s-in-current-production.html
I think we are talking about the model 1886. (lever action)
I think you are confusing the singleshot BPCR (model 1885) and the Traditional Hunter also Model 1885 with the 1886.
Yes?
Chill Wills
03-08-2017, 02:25 PM
NSB I'm the OP and the rifle I was looking at I bought, it does have a pistol grip 26 inch octagon barrel and is not D&T but the wood doesn't look like anything upgraded. I have heard of the 1885's being made in a BPCR but not a 1886, how can I tell for sure? I tried doing a search for the serial number but can't come up with anything.
Thanks Scott
sac I think you have it all correct. No BPCR (Badger) 1886.
BTW - my barrel on my 1886 is really great! maybe not badger but every bit as good for the 1886 and I can not find any fault with the rifles accuracy. Much better than I would have expected for a lever rifle with the tube mag clinging to the barrel and all.
You have a great rifle. Enjoy.
2ndAmendmentNut
03-08-2017, 02:42 PM
Miroku made/makes rifles for both Browning and now whoever owns the Winchester name. (I believe the same Belgium based company owns both the Browning name and Winchester name, but not sure.) Most of the Winchester/Miroku rifles I have seen are D&T on the receiver and have a tang safety along with a rebounding hammer. I have never seen a Browning/Miroku 1886 that was factory D&T on either the receiver or tang.
sac I think you have it all correct. No BPCR (Badger) 1886.
BTW - my barrel on my 1886 is really great! maybe not badger but every bit as good for the 1886 and I can not find any fault with the rifles accuracy. Much better than I would have expected for a lever rifle with the tube mag clinging to the barrel and all.
You have a great rifle. Enjoy.
I do have high hopes for this rifle, I sold a 1895 marlin B0 serial number 1972 production to get it. The marlin and I just never got along.
Miroku made/makes rifles for both Browning and now whoever owns the Winchester name. (I believe the same Belgium based company owns both the Browning name and Winchester name, but not sure.) Most of the Winchester/Miroku rifles I have seen are D&T on the receiver and have a tang safety along with a rebounding hammer. I have never seen a Browning/Miroku 1886 that was factory D&T on either the receiver or tang.
Mine is marked Winchester.
Win/Miroku 1886 with Williams FP sights using DT receiver.190029
2ndAmendmentNut
03-08-2017, 04:50 PM
Win/Miroku 1886 with Williams FP sights using DT receiver.190029
Beautiful case colors!
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JeffWarner
03-08-2017, 04:51 PM
Post deleted
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Chill Wills
03-08-2017, 05:15 PM
Win/Miroku 1886 with Williams FP sights using DT receiver.190029
Very nice case colors. Straight grip. Is it a carbine?
No, not a carbine. It started out as a plain Jane Win/Miroku and I had Turnbull CC it. I also had the safety removed and plugged and the throat lengthened.
2ndAmendmentNut
03-08-2017, 06:25 PM
No, not a carbine. It started out as a plain Jane Win/Miroku and I had Turnbull CC it. I also had the safety removed and plugged and the throat lengthened.
Very nice. Do you know if Turnbull will convert an 1886 to a takedown model? I might need to call him, but I'll need to save my pennies for a while.
I would love to have my Browning 86 case colored and converted to a takedown model. Would also be nice to have a second barrel set fitted in 40-65. Might need to pawn off a kidney or two.
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Chill Wills
03-08-2017, 08:00 PM
I would advise choosing a one kidney rifle. :p Two is more than most of us can afford.
sac - with the Miroku made Winchester & Browning 1886 rifles their 45/70 chambers have no throat to speak of. Some people have the throat opened out but the alternative is to use bullet designs that still work in the stock throat. A lot of cast bullets designs do work in the short throat and if you want something heavy I have a Saeco and a Lyman mould that cast 480 gr and 560 gr respectively that cycle and function in the factory throat. So by selecting 2 diameter designs for heavier bullets you can work around the short throat. Another way is to use the shorter Hornady brass for bullets that won't fit the throat.
So far mine has chamered every thing I have tried. Haven't been able to go out and do load development for it yet. Only shooting Remington factory 405 jsp.
Gunlaker
04-07-2017, 11:06 AM
I just sold an original in .38-56 and have a new pistol gripped, case colored, Miroku 1886 on order. It's supposed to be drilled and tapped for a receiver sight. Not sure if I'll go that way yet, I might go with an MVA combination tang sight. Other than MVA, I don't trust the newer sights. I've had a new Marbles tang sight and it was just as sloppy as the new Lyman tang sight on my 1894.
Chris.
Chill Wills
04-07-2017, 03:12 PM
Chris, I still have an original 1886 .38-56. Neat rifle and it shoots well. It has the MVA copy of the old Marbles tang sight on it. I also have the Miroku Winchester 1886 45-70. I have the receiver sight on it.
Of the two, the tang sight is many times cooler. The receiver sight however, is many times easier for me to use in 200 meter CB Silhouette matches. The tang sight suffers from ultra hard to read marks on the stem and returning the stem between each stage/distance to the new setting is not a sure thing. Then I find myself shooting high or low with good sight pictures. Missing is frustrating! Shopping for a sight picture and or trying to adjust the stem on the fly during the scoring period is a looser.
The tang sight has one other fatal flaw. Maybe unique to me and my body geometry, the tang sight has ruined more eye glasses for me. The junction of right lens, upper inside where I look through it and the tang sight eye cup compete for space in recoil.
In the course of one match, I have scratched a new lens to the point it is useless to look through.
None of that problem happens with the receiver sight.
The Miroku with the receiver sight is Sooo repeatable, and as much as I do not want to add holes in the old Winchester, I will need to mount a receiver sight on it to shoot it.
Enjoy your new rifle!
Chris, I still have an original 1886 .38-56. Neat rifle and it shoots well. I has the MVA copy of the old Marbles tang sight on it. I also have the Miroku Winchester 1886 45-70. I have the receiver sight on it.
Of the two, the tang sight is many times cooler. The receiver sight however, is many times easier for me to use in 200 meter CB Silhouette matches. The tang sight suffers from ultra hard to read marks on the stem and returning the stem between each stage/distance to the new setting is not a sure thing. Then I find myself shooting high or low with good sight pictures. Missing is frustrating! Shopping for a sight picture and or trying to adjust the stem on the fly during the scoring period is a looser.
The tang sight has one other fatal flaw. Maybe unique to me and my body geometry, the tang sight has ruined more eye glasses for me. The junction of right lens, upper inside where I look through it and the tang sight eye cup compete for space in recoil.
In the course of one match, I have scratched a new lens to the point it is useless to look through.
None of that problem happens with the receiver sight.
The Miroku with the receiver sight is Sooo repeatable, and as much as I do not want to add holes in the old Winchester, I will need to mount a receiver sight on it to shoot it.
Enjoy your new rifle!
Chill Wills, How far can you shoot the receiver sight to, or do you have enough elevation for 4 to 500 yards?
Chill Wills
04-07-2017, 05:02 PM
Chill Wills, How far can you shoot the receiver sight to, or do you have enough elevation for 4 to 500 yards?
I am not sure what the max range is on these rifles. Each is set up a little different and the front sight height (shorter=farther) has a lot to do with it.
At one time or another I have shot the 500 meter rams with each of my '86's so at least that far.
I am not sure what the max range is on these rifles. Each is set up a little different and the front sight height (shorter=farther) has a lot to do with it.
At one time or another I have shot the 500 meter rams with each of my '86's so at least that far.
Thank you, I was wondering if the lyman receiver sight would have enough elevation. I am still on the fence as to which sight to get MVA soule or older lyman.
Gunlaker
04-07-2017, 10:25 PM
Thank for the advice Chill Wills, I think I will take it :-). I know what you mean about the scratched glasses. I've never scratched them with a tang sight on a single shot, but did once on my Marlin 1894 with a Lyman tang. It surprised the heck out of me as the rifle has nearly no recoil.
I likely won't shoot further than 200-250 yards with this one. Once the distances get further I wouldn't be able to control my urge to get out one of my single shots.
I am really looking forward to getting this rifle. I think it might be a few months before it gets up here, but I'm patient.
Chris.
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