4f black powder

[johnson1942]

i was in the wrong place to ask about this so im putting it here. is it acceptable as a charge behind a roundball? is it dangerous? i have done it with really good results but did it only one day as i was in the unknown. i used 80 grains by volume behind a patched 50 cal round ball. it cracked when fired and was very consistantly accurate and the bore had no need to wipe between rounds. again is it safe? also i think i read once that using it in a 45 long colt case ruined some nice saa colt frames. im more interested in a side lock precussion rifle. please give me all the input you can, even pressures as compaired to 3f or 2f. thanks before hand.

[shdwlkr]

Well for starters 4f is a flint lock priming powder,
Side locks or more traditional black powder firearms are designed to handle 2f and 3f as main charges. I used to use 3f in all my black powder firearms.
Look at this way Ruger made a black powder pistol that could handle 40 grains of 3f powder as a maximum charge and anyone that knows anything about Bill Ruger knows he over built most of what he sold. So if his over built pistol was only safe with 3f powder just what does that tell you about everything else that uses black powder.
When using 3f in side locks above .45 caliber it is used with 10-15% less powder than when using 2f. It will burn cleaner than 2f. When I had muzzle loaders all the way up to .58 caliber I used 3f with rb and patching.

YMMV, but for me I like to go home after a day of shooting, but what do I know I only played, studied and asked questions of those smarter than me the 40 years I shot black powder.

I will drop into one of the groups I am in that shoots only muzzle loaders and get their ideas on using 4f black powder as a main charge in a .50 caliber rifle.

[waksupi]

I remember a guy was selling his load info with 4F in ML's. I never looked in to it. If I were going to experiment, I would start at about ten grains, and work up from there.

[Soundguy]

in my 69 cal smooth bore, the load listed up to 70 2f or 50 3f. that pretty much tells me not to use 4f.

Only time I have put 4f into a bp gun was when a buddy dryballed one once, we pulled the nipple and got about 8gr of 4f stuffed in and was able to pop the ball out and watch it roll down the range.

otherwise.... 4f is pan powder for flintlocks.

[dondiego]

I was thinking that 4 F might have some use in the Colt 31 cal revolvers or other small calibers. What did they used to load .32 SPL with?

[shdwlkr]

dondiego
.31 colt used 3f 10-14 grains
.32 special would be 1f-2f
here is a table of some various calibers and bp loads
http://www.goexpowder.com/images/LoadCharts/Cartridge-Rifle.pdf

[bedbugbilly]

I guess it's like anything in life - you can do it but is it the wisest thing to do? You can load a 45 Lonf Colt full of smokeless but you know what the results will be - if you are lucky and don't get hit or killed with he shrapnel.

I've been shooting BP for over 50 years - pistol, rifle, smoothbore, full size Civil War cannons and Siege Mortors. There are "accepted practices" and hey are "accepted" for a reason.

4F is granulated for flintlock priming. If a dealer stocks BP they usually stock all the granulation so why not just buy and use the correct and accepted granulation for the firearm you own? I also load BP cartridge and the smallest graduation I ever use is 3F and that is usually in my 38 Colt Short loads. But I also know that the pressure that creates will work fine in my firearm.

So you have used 4F and didn't have to wipe the bore? Is it really a big issue to wipe the bore between shots? I never have found it to be so in the thousands and thousands of rounds I have fired over the years.

You can get the best accuracy out of your firearm by working up the load with the correct granulation and the ball/projectile/patch that you use.

I really don't mean to be critical but it always amazes me "why" people, whether it be BP or smokeless loading, want to "push the envelope". I was taught how to shoot BP by an old gunsmith who was pushing 90 when I was a kid well over 50 years ago - and at that time, we used original guns not reproductions. The first lesson he taught me was to "use enough powder to get the job done but not so much as to waste it".

Today's reproductions come with recommend loads and yes, most are "lawyered". But it's a little too late "after" a mishap has occurred when proper loading and methods are ignored.

In the end, you can load your gun anyway you want to . . . but do others a favor and if you are going to "play" with other than recommend loads and play with un-recommended granulations, etc. and basically "fly by the seat of your pants" . . . let those around you know so that they can take cover.

And for those that will use the argument of "modern metallurgy" - just remember, there have been many firearms that have blown with standard loads due to a production flaw.

[johnson1942]

ok, you did not read what i wrote, again you did not read what i wrote and im probably even older than you. did i say i wanted to push the envelope. one thing in life is this for me, never ever ever put words in my mouth. and you just did for our lack of reading what i wrote. i said i did it one day and did it with very good results. then i asked for the science of the information and asked if there was a pressure problem. you came on like gangbusters talking down to me about your 50 years of experience, so why did you give me facts instead of what you did. if you want to scold someone do it somewhere else. waksupi gave a short but interesting answer, you could have done the same. so if you want to turn this into a argument about your 50 years of experience and not being able to read or answer correctly, go for it. now again, does any body have any data on pressure curves of 4f compared to 3f and 2f.

[wgr]

if it were that great the boys at friendship would use it

[Plastikosmd]

beats me! I am the wrong one to ask, I am using between 160-220 grains of bp, 3 and 2f in a couple of my bench guns. I would imagine the 4f charge would have an initial higher initial pressure spike/initial impulse, reduce appropriately

[Mr Peabody]

Lyman listed 4f loads for revolvers in their 1st black powder manual and I've used them. I think the power's too fast for rifle situations.

[johnson1942]

thanks guys, some interesting info.

[rfd]

furthermore, i see no need for 4f bp in the pan for those flintlock folks hunting or into woods walk type shoots. i like keeping it all as simple, consistent, and accurate as possible. 3f in pan and tube. easy patched ball loading, no ball starter, and no to little fouling control needed. i don't have a need for extreme trad ml target shooting, with heavy guns and hammering tight patched ball loads down the tube. i respect what the target boys do, but that ain't my thing nor idea of ml fun.

[Hellgate]

To add to Mr. Peabody's comments: The Lyman 4F loads in revolvers didn't impress me with huge increases in pressure with it's use. I use FFFg in my 58cal rifles if it gives me the best accuracy and power (i.e. 90grs FFFg under a 430gr 575213-OS minie bullet in my Zouave). If your rifle is heavy barreled you probably can get away with it. Val Forget killed and elephant and a hippo with a 58cal Hawken style rifle shooting 180gr FFFg under a 610gr minie bullet. That rifle was 1 1/8" across the flats. They tested it with 200grs FFFg but it was not as accurate at that load. I think your using a PRB gives you some leeway with its lightness. A heavy bullet might blow the gun.

[Good Cheer]

In a .40 or so diameter it might be fun to compare the curves for powder charge versus chrono results for FFg, FFFg and FFFFg with all other factors being the same. I might do that some day. And include Jacks Battle. But to measure the pressure, don't have the instrumentation for that.

[johnson1942]

thanks again for the input.

[jjarrell]

According to the Lyman Black Powder Handbook (they don't have 4f load data as its not meant to be a main charge) 80gr of FFFg, a .490 round ball from a 28" barrel with a 1:48 twist produces 9500psi of bore pressure. Comparatively a .50 cal 350gr buffalo bullet produced 11,700psi of pressure with the same charge of FFg. More loads.........120gr of FFFg in a .54 cal with a round ball from a 32" barrel with 1:60 twist produces 8300psi of bore pressure. A .54 cal Lyman 335gr sabot with the same 120gr charge produces 17,200psi of bore pressure with Pyrodex Select. As bore diameter increases the volume of the rifles bore increases as well. As bore volume increases the bore pressure usually decreases with a given load depending on brand of powder. Also a faster rifling twist increases bore pressure because there is more resistance. It takes more force to push the projectile down a fast twist barrel than it does a slow twist round ball barrel. To illustrate this a 200gr .45 cal Lyman sabot load produces 27,400psi with 100gr of Pyrodex RS from a 22" 1:24 twist barrel. Round ball loads are always on the low end of the pressure curve that muzzleloader barrels are designed to handle. Conicals produce higher pressures because they are heavier, and sabot loads are the highest on the pressure scale because the plastic sabot produces a great deal of resistance to movement. The test pressures produced with sabot loads is truly eye opening and startling. I bet they are much higher than 90% of sabot shooters think they are. Muzzleloader barrels can safely take more than you think they can. I recommend everyone get the Lyman Black Powder Handbook and Loading Manual by Sam Fadala and read it cover to cover. It has load and pressure data for almost all loads from .32 to .75 caliber rifles. The load data is also broken down into barrel length and rifling twist rates. There is also much more useful information to be had in the book.

[rodwha]

Well for starters 4f is a flint lock priming powder,
Side locks or more traditional black powder firearms are designed to handle 2f and 3f as main charges. I used to use 3f in all my black powder firearms.
Look at this way Ruger made a black powder pistol that could handle 40 grains of 3f powder as a maximum charge and anyone that knows anything about Bill Ruger knows he over built most of what he sold. So if his over built pistol was only safe with 3f powder just what does that tell you about everything else that uses black powder.
When using 3f in side locks above .45 caliber it is used with 10-15% less powder than when using 2f. It will burn cleaner than 2f. When I had muzzle loaders all the way up to .58 caliber I used 3f with rb and patching.

YMMV, but for me I like to go home after a day of shooting, but what do I know I only played, studied and asked questions of those smarter than me the 40 years I shot black powder.

I will drop into one of the groups I am in that shoots only muzzle loaders and get their ideas on using 4f black powder as a main charge in a .50 caliber rifle.

Actually the Ruger manual states you can stuff it full of 4F. Maybe you should have read it prior to posting. Also the Lyman Blacklowder Handbook shows 4F loads as well:

%5BURL=http://s1255.photobucket.com/user/rodwha/media/IMG_0937_zpsfutnctei.png.html%5D%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh640/rodwha/IMG_0937_zpsfutnctei.png%5B/IMG%5D%5B/URL%5D

And then there's the Hazard's Pistol Powder cartridges (.44 cal) from the Civil War that contained 4F powder with a conical. And the museum curator who took apart pre 1900's cartridges, including large caliber, that contained powders even finer than 4F.

Oh, and Swiss powder, known to be among the most energetic, shows 4F as designed for pistols:

%5BURL=http://s1255.photobucket.com/user/rodwha/media/IMG_0933_zpsefvyeqcx.png.html%5D%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh640/rodwha/IMG_0933_zpsefvyeqcx.png%5B/IMG%5D%5B/URL%5D

[rodwha]

http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh640/rodwha/IMG_0933_zpsefvyeqcx.png

http://i1255.photobucket.com/albums/hh640/rodwha/IMG_0937_zpsfutnctei.png

[johnson1942]

now we are getting some good input from every one, thanks again.

[rodwha]

Note, though, that 4F is used in pistols, which means smaller charges. It's too difficult to know when the pressure spike becomes too great beyond that.

[jjarrell]

2nd edition of the Black Powder Handbook does not have 4f load data. Not under rifle, revolver, or BPC for rifle or pistol. It may have been in a earlier edition and removed in the later edition. If I'm missing it I apologize but I went back and looked.

[Chill Wills]

Well for starters 4f is a flint lock priming powder, ...

Look at this way Ruger made a black powder pistol that could handle 40 grains of 3f powder as a maximum charge and anyone that knows anything about Bill Ruger knows he over built most of what he sold. So if his over built pistol was only safe with 3f powder just what does that tell you about everything else that uses black powder.

I don't believe the quote in red is correct. The 1970's era owners manual uses the wording "any grade" of powder. This implies his ROA is safe with 4F in any amount.

The advice in post #3 above is great. Start with a very small charge and work up. No need to get carried away.

[shdwlkr]

Well from the old Army owners manual
pg 10
Any granulation within these gradations could be used in the “Old Army”; normally, however, “FFFg” is the preferred
grain size. Replica black powder such as Pyrodex may be used, so long as
suggested loading data is strictly adhered to

pg 11
It is safe to use as much Black Powder as the chamber will hold, leaving room for
the bullet. This maximum loading is not usually the most accurate loading,

Years ago I called Ruger and the person I got on the phone said that really 4f was a proof load and not recommended as a usual powder charge. You do what you want with your muzzle loaders, me I like the idea of being around after a shooting session.

[dondiego]

dondiego
.31 colt used 3f 10-14 grains
.32 special would be 1f-2f
here is a table of some various calibers and bp loads
http://www.goexpowder.com/images/LoadCharts/Cartridge-Rifle.pdf

Interesting chart. They don't even use 4F for .22 LR.

[shdwlkr]

glad you liked it, if those who make black powder and for over a hundred plus years even don't recommend 4f, what makes you think it has any use other than as a primer in flint locks and even there you can use 3f and maybe even 2f. Some folks just don't get it, there is a reason why you just don't do what you think might be cool. But then Darwin is always looking for volunteers to win his award

[rodwha]

Well from the old Army owners manual
pg 10
Any granulation within these gradations could be used in the “Old Army”; normally, however, “FFFg” is the preferred
grain size. Replica black powder such as Pyrodex may be used, so long as
suggested loading data is strictly adhered to

pg 11
It is safe to use as much Black Powder as the chamber will hold, leaving room for
the bullet. This maximum loading is not usually the most accurate loading,

Years ago I called Ruger and the person I got on the phone said that really 4f was a proof load and not recommended as a usual powder charge. You do what you want with your muzzle loaders, me I like the idea of being around after a shooting session.


You cant just pick and chose what you want concerning this so as to say what you want it to. Here's the online manual (pg 9):

http://stevespages.com/pdf/ruger_oldarmy.pdf

It clearly states any granulation from 1F to 4F may be loaded.

[rodwha]

glad you liked it, if those who make black powder and for over a hundred plus years even don't recommend 4f, what makes you think it has any use other than as a primer in flint locks and even there you can use 3f and maybe even 2f. Some folks just don't get it, there is a reason why you just don't do what you think might be cool. But then Darwin is always looking for volunteers to win his award

Mae have a museum curator here who took apart metallic cartridges to be placed on display. Even the large calibers contained 4F and finer powders. Swiss powder s low 4F for pistols and 3F for rifles. You really ought to check your facts before you go on like this across various forums.

And hes yes it was the 1st addition in which 37 grns of 4F was loaded behind a ball in an 1860 Army.

[Chill Wills]

I think the ROA comparison is a rabbit hole to run down in this ML conversation. They are apples and oranges.

To the point of the FFFF in a ML. The question is an easy one and has a good answer above. Like everything in life, moderation is key.

I routinely remove the FFFF and fines from my powder for BP Cartridge Rifle use and rather than throw it away, I get great joy using it up shooting the ROA and the 50 flinter using safe loads. What is considered correct for someone else is their business.

[Edward]

Check the current March NRA back page (I have this old gun). They show a British Baker Rifle ( vintage 1806 )valued at $10000.00 big ones,seems the STANDARD load was around [wait for it] 100 grains more or less fine rifle powder between modern FFFg and FFFFg . I doubt
the barrel material was even close to modern off shore specs and the gun looks pretty good for an (off shore build) [smilie=1:

[johnson1942]

now that is interesting edward. i think 4f is just a forgotten powder in the world and may have not been used much in america but it may have and just been forgotten. all i know is this, when i heard my friends foster grown child used it in his flintlock and won matches with it i tried it in a good american made 50 cal slowtwist gun and for that day of shooting i really liked it. it didnt hurt the nipple at all. ive heard that a good muzzle loader cracks when shot, never ever had one do that except the day i used 4f. it truly cracked very sharply every time i shot it that day. if i knew it was truly safe i would make a run to scottbluff and buy another can of it to try again. im not pushing the limit at all, i want facts before i jump into this and maybe ive tweeked enough interest of people who know how to do better research than i do. hope we get some more input.

[waksupi]

I do recall a friend used to shoot it in his .32. I don't know the charge. It sounded like a varmint rifle going off.

[rodwha]

Might want to search for Sam Fadala's original muzzleloader Handbook. I believe it showed pressures for several guns/loads. Since it showed 4F loads (I only know of the one posted showing an 1860 Army) it may well have info that might benefit you.

[Geezer in NH]

Lyman first showed pressures of 4f

[rodwha]

Lyman first showed pressures of 4f

Do you have these figures?

[johnson1942]

this is getting more interesting as it goes along. waksupi, you are right. it really cracks in a rifle report. i do remember quite a number of years ago that a famous author of the ssa colt books ruined one by using 4f in the 45 long colt case. i only heard that and do not know if it is true or not. it may have been just a story or maybe not.

[rodwha]

Might not have been just a story. It's said to use 2F in cartridges. I'm guessing it's the crimp that increases pressures? Get rid of the case and the requirement for 2F dissolves.

[Teddy (punchie)]

Just a little recap to start. I thought it was a burn rate not pressure with the BP size. Smaller the bore the smaller the powder. 1f cannons, 2f like most heavier guns like 45 cal and larger, not that 3fff can't be used. 3fff for a general usage and smaller arms and pistols. 4ffff primmer powder.

That said I had a ball on top of ball with powder between one time. So ball no powder to get it out. then one of the helpers ??? charged the bore with powder then added a ball , what a mess. Ended up with a mix of powder and ball and puller would not hold or grab the ball it was spinning in the flintlock. So I started to call around, ended up talking to Mr. C .
He is now Teddy think about be in the thick of a fight an using the black powder, how would you get it out, you would shoot it out. He said that just about any amount of regular black powder can be used, not any other but regular BP. Take out the priming plug (touch hole) and pack it with powder, replace plug (touch hole) and fire. Do it again and again until the ball is out. Took three times and ball was out, sounded like a funny firework but did work. I was told to use priming powder. Mr C had to explain this to me about 3 times as I was a smokeless powder person where he is a PB person they are not the same animal. PB is not a pressure on pressure forming like Smokeless can be. From the way I understand it BP pushes compared to Smokeless explosive pressure. Maybe an other way is black powder burns and smokeless explodes. BP make pressure in burning where smokeless just blows up.

He is still with us and I'll try and stop to chat with him. He collects old BP guns and arms. Be a sad sad day when he passes just tops, smart and he knows it and doesn't show it, good a Christian as any of us. SO young Ted as he calls me will stop and pick his brain.

I'm not a BP pistol person and I'll ask him about the pistols too. I know pistols can and will BLOW UP SO BE CAREFUL. Long guns I'm thinking there very hard to blow with BP, maybe the newer ones are just about no way to blow them. Anyone ever seen or heard tell of a BP rifle blowing up ?? using BP not something else or in replacement of.

[Geezer in NH]

Do you have these figures?

Goex 4f 44 cal Roundball starts 19 grains pressure 5,240 LUP loads go up to 37 grains pressure 7,420 LUP

Goex 3f 44 cal Roundball starts 19 grains pressure 5,540 LUP loads go up to 37 grains pressure 7,940 LUP

And NO I did not confuse the #'s as the book shows the 3f with the higher pressure. For what its worth.

Pressures taken in a special pressure revolver it states also.

[Chill Wills]

Here is a quick look at the Lyman ML guild with pressure for C&B
No data for ML was listed. I could guess that long barrels and short pressure times is the reason they are not listed. I could also guess that equal loads in long guns could be used. But, in a fact driven post guesses don't count :p.

Anyway, 4F with the pressures are listed for all C&B revolvers from 31 cal to the well made Ruger ROA.

[John Taylor]

I don't think there would be a problem using 4F. When playing around with a mortar years ago, switching from 2F to 1F doubled the distance. I would have thought it would be the other way around but apparently with a heavy projectile the slower powder built up more pressure. With any powder it is alway best to start with a lighter load and work up to where you get the best accuracy. If F4 works best for you then use it. I did find that 2F gave the best accuracy in my ROA. Also found out that a 32 rifle only needs about 10 grains to shoot well. Thinking the original load for a 32 long rimfire was only 9 grains.

[rodwha]

I've wondered how much may be harmonics.

[shdwlkr]

I am wondering if you load 4f at say 20% below the starting charge would the pressure spike be more acceptable to the firearm?

I have also found a neat little pistol made by NAA that uses 4f powder and they even give you a scoop so you get the right amount of powder.

I tend to worry about pressure spikes more than the powder being used. Yes I used to use 3f in my large caliber bp rifles when I had them, but I also loaded them 10-15% less when doing so to keep the pressure spike where I wanted it.

If I had a rifle that I really didn't care much about and a safe way to test it could be very interesting to see what the results would be. Heck I just found that there is/was 5f powder at some point in history. Not sure what that would be used for, maybe pan powder in a flint lock.

[Chill Wills]

SHDWLKR,
If you look at those Lyman loading and pressure tables in post 40 you will see that is charge weight go up, so does pressure but no sharp spike. I think that is one of the main differences between progressive powders and real gunpowder. It is much more predictable. Not child's play, make no mistake, but far more forgiving than smokeless.

[KCSO]

In a 50 calibre rifle FFFg Dupont gave about 10% more pressure than FFg. In an orifinal Sharps 45- 2 1/0 FFFg would back up the primers and FFg would not. I have NO data on FFFFg in a rifle and would guess the pressure would be higher than FFFg and I for one would not use it. You might try and look up Ed Yards work on pressure in BP guns from the 70's I think at some point he got very high pressure with some powders.

[Soundguy]

You can load a 45 Lonf Colt full of smokeless but you know what the results will be - if you are lucky and don't get hit or killed with he shrapnel.

.

Actually.. you can load a case full and do it right.

You can load trailboss to 100% free case capacity, under projectile, with no compressed loads. Trailboss is smokless.

[shdwlkr]

chill wills
Post #40 Is talking about pistol loads which can lose some of built up pressure between the cylinder and forcing cone of the barrel.
OP is asking about using 4f in a side lock rifle barrel two entirely different pressure issues. The original post also mentions using 80 grains which can not be done with pistols.

I still maintain pressure spike is going to be an issue and yes it does happen in black powder firearms and no it is not like in smokeless firearms, but it is still a pressure spike.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/57

[rfd]

it's threads like this that might cause people who are far too "new" to trad ml side locks to make a mistake such as thinking that 4f bp is ok for these kinda guns down the tube. while it *might* have a place in cartridge revolvers for some folks, 4f or null-b is still a pan priming powder for flintlocks at best, or perhaps a smidgen "goose" charge for coarser powders, IF done right by someone knowing precisely what they're doing. but why bother with it when clearly it's use as a full charge for side locks is a huge red flag? far more prudent to just let it be, and be safe.

[shdwlkr]

rfd
I believe that threads like this might well point out to new shooters that just because you might be able to get away with something once, twice maybe three times why on earth do it. I have maintained throughout this thread that 4f is not a good powder to be used for anything but priming of a flint lock and even then it is not necessary as I have many in another group I am in that use 3f as the main charge and priming charge with no ill effects.
This thread is a discussion into what if you use 4f powder in your side lock not that it is a good choice. I have been around black powder and its many uses for over 50 years, some of it in not desired peaceful outcomes. The one thing that has stayed constant in all those years is yes we think we know how black powder will react in all conditions but no we don't know it well enough to write that it will always do this or that under these conditions. There is just to many variables the moisture of the powder, amount of powder, how well is the ball seated on the powder, the humidity of the day, how dry or damp is the barrel, how well is the barrel made, how many times has it been fired that day, how long between shots, the caps being used are they all exactly the same make up, etc. We do know if we use 2f or3f with "x" amount of powder it can be repeated many times and no ill effects. But if we wander over into a grade of powder not proven to be safe as a main charge that we have opened the door for all kinds of things to go wrong and some we might know really soon think blown up rifle here to nothing visible happened negatively.

I am not against the OP as it is supposed to be a place where we can ask questions and find answers instead of just doing something because we think it might work. I have dug into some old material that I had forgot about and the more I re-read the more I would not under any conditions use 4f as a main charge in a side lock rifle or any black powder rifle not made to handle smokeless powder pressure levels one being the savage made rifle. Would I put 4f even in that rifle most likely not, just because years of using black powder tells me this is not a smart, good or even stupid idea. I like to be safe when using black powder and tend to stay within safe limits that those who have shot it longer than me set down as safe limits.

Whether we have a discussion like this for new comers to read or not some are going to be lead in the wrong direction by those selling the firearm that don't know better. I have been in LGS where the sales person tried to tell a customer that a .380 was a better pistol than the .38 special/.357 magnum. Yes I stepped in and told the customer the real story really depended on how close you were to your pest, how good a shot you were and how you handled stress in a negative situation.

Hope this helps some realize we are discussing the plus and minus using 4f powder in a side lock not that it is safe, should be done or even can be safely done

[rfd]

shdwlker

i think it's a good thread topic, but i think some of the subsequent posts missed the mark for where the op is coming from and steered the topic at least somewhat off course.

the bottom line that the op should glean from his thread is that 4f is a pan powder. messing with fine bp powder, or literally any kinda powder, without knowing what yer doing is totally unsafe and borders on, well, being stupid if you're told the err of yer ways by folks who actually know what they're talking about.

my ml's are all trad flintlocks, from .32 to .62 in bore and all use 3f down the tube and in the pan - most folks are surprised at the fast ignition and consider it 4f. truth be told, the multitude of flintlock/powder tests have shown that, YES, 4f or null-b IS faster than 3f, but that difference is typically not discernible by humans. so who really cares? not me. it's nice to have one powder horn that does it all. i have NO problem using 2f down the tube and in the pan as well. it works just fine and yields just as fast ignition, at least for me. there is more to flintlocks than caplocks in the matter of good and reliable ignition, but it will always come down to knowledge and components.

[Chill Wills]

chill wills
Post #40 Is talking about pistol loads which can lose some of built up pressure between the cylinder and forcing cone of the barrel.
OP is asking about using 4f in a side lock rifle barrel two entirely different pressure issues. The original post also mentions using 80 grains which can not be done with pistols.
We agree. If you go back and look at my very first and second post I stated the same.

I still maintain pressure spike is going to be an issue and yes it does happen in black powder firearms and no it is not like in smokeless firearms, but it is still a pressure spike.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/57
My comments above in red and below in blue....
Your last sentence I do not agree unless you have some facts. Can you bring any data to the post? All the BP pressures traces I have looked at, which are not very many, do not show this. Even in double charges the pressure plateaus.
The only advice given here is start small and go slow. As always, if you don't feel like you have a handle on it. Don't!

Very much basic advice for life too.
Half the people in the country would not have a gun in the house. Much too dangerous and sets a bad example for young people.

I will keep my eye open for some more data on ML and will post if I can. In the mean time can we agree to disagree? I'm done and it is someone else's turn. I'm not much for the last word - just facts.

Respectfully, Michael Rix

[Nobade]

I hesitate to chime in on these threads too much, but one thing I noticed here is there is no mention of brand of powder. All 3F or 4F is not created equally. For example, my old S&W 32-20 hand ejector can easily fire a full load of KIK or Goex 3F, but if I load it with Swiss or Old "E" 3f, it will make enough pressure for the primers to extrude into the frame and tie up the cylinder. Obviously the pressure is higher. Just for grins I once tried it with a full load of Goex 4F. It worked fine, showing less pressure than the Swiss 3F loads. Now of course I would not try any Swiss 4F or NulB loads in it, that would be silly. But the point is, not all gun powder is created equally. BTW, I get better ignition in my flintlocks with homemade powder than I do with that Goex 4F. In fact I haven't really found much use for it, glad I only have one pound to use up.

-Nobade

[Teddy (punchie)]

Okay Got a hold of Mr. C . Mr. C. Said that you can interchange black powder. May burn just a little different but for all the ins and out of it there all out of the same thing and pressures should be normal. Pistol should not be over loaded. So if you keep the loads down on the pistol there is no reason you can't use 4 FFFF , put it is a priming powder. He keeps saying it will just blow out and flash as it is going out the barrel end, thus is why muzzle loaders make so much flash.


Now he goes on about the Fort MacIntosh Club. Now I'm in for it, he goes on to explain the 14 oz. of powder there New Cannon is going to use. Oman I'm going to get a phone call. Hey Young Ted we are !!!!!!

Any way for any one in PA J&J Propellants (look below)??? Anyone know of them . I'm to look them up.


Company information :

J&J Pyrotechnics Manufacturing Inc

Rr 502

Moscow, PA 18444 - Lackawanna County


(570) 842-3411

or
J & J Pyrotechnics Mfg., Inc.
165 Schittler Road
Spring Brook TWP, PA 18444-6434
Phone: 570-842-3411
Fax: 570-842-1206
Toll Free Phone: 877-748-3473
E-Mail: jjpyro@verizon.net

[quail4jake]

The old dogma was "never put FFFFg in the breech, it will blow up!"...probably not really true but I never found reason to try it. As the years go on and our rigid "facts" are replaced by wisdom new knowledge comes to light. I learned that our present granulations are about one grade coarser than 19th century grades, changing in the early 20th century. The ordinance manual of 1861 called for "musket powder" for all cal. .58 and .69 loads which was listed as FFg but the standards for that granulation are the same as modern FFFg, so it seems true that old granulation sizes are finer than modern. Anyway, I use FFFg even in the 4 dram cal. .69 ball load and never a problem, I tried FFg in the .69 and had a lot more fouling. If all this is true I can't imagine how dusty FFFFg must have been!
Thankfully, black powder follows zero order kinetics; it burns at (pretty close to) the same rate no matter the pressure. Yes, its burn rate and energy is affected by temperature and humidity but it is really controlled but grain size since it is regressive burning. None of those factors change burn rate and pressure spikes like the many factors that affecting smokeless powder due to its first order kinetics which makes black powder more forgiving. I guess I can see an attraction to using FFFFg in small bore applications due to less fouling (possibly) but I'd be careful and certainly wouldn't get "creative" with smokeless powder!
BTW, there are a few things that still hold true from dogma: charge separations are bad and bore obstructions are worse!

[bigted]

like the OP ... i am waiting to see some comparisons of preasure between F sizes of powder. i also think this should be tempered to keep the graph comparing to a like powder ... hence GOEX in all 4 sizes and Swiss in the same 4 sizes comparison. would like to see the KIK and OL E as well in the comparison charts keeping the comparison to a brand in each graph.

maybe the graph could be a double to include the CUP of each powder manufacturer in a muzzleloader application ... not cartridge [altho that would be cool as well in certain cartridges].

i also seen the veering away from the quest early on and hope this is corrected.

[johnson1942]

thanks bigted.

[rodwha]

The old dogma was "never put FFFFg in the breech, it will blow up!"...probably not really true but I never found reason to try it. As the years go on and our rigid "facts" are replaced by wisdom new knowledge comes to light. I learned that our present granulations are about one grade coarser than 19th century grades, changing in the early 20th century. The ordinance manual of 1861 called for "musket powder" for all cal. .58 and .69 loads which was listed as FFg but the standards for that granulation are the same as modern FFFg, so it seems true that old granulation sizes are finer than modern. Anyway, I use FFFg even in the 4 dram cal. .69 ball load and never a problem, I tried FFg in the .69 and had a lot more fouling. If all this is true I can't imagine how dusty FFFFg must have been!
Thankfully, black powder follows zero order kinetics; it burns at (pretty close to) the same rate no matter the pressure. Yes, its burn rate and energy is affected by temperature and humidity but it is really controlled but grain size since it is regressive burning. None of those factors change burn rate and pressure spikes like the many factors that affecting smokeless powder due to its first order kinetics which makes black powder more forgiving. I guess I can see an attraction to using FFFFg in small bore applications due to less fouling (possibly) but I'd be careful and certainly wouldn't get "creative" with smokeless powder!
BTW, there are a few things that still hold true from dogma: charge separations are bad and bore obstructions are worse!

I'd certainly love to see this information myself. Can you direct me to what it is you read?