pedersoli 1874 sharps bullet alloy

[barnabus]

i recently bought a 1874 sharps target model and was shooting lino in my buffalo classic to get a large enough bullet using a 300 grain mold. i just purchased the rcbs 530 grain creedmore style bullet. my question is what is the best alloy for making a bullet for this rifle? i dont mind using lino at all,but have range lead,wheel weights and soft lead available.i will be shooting AA5744 smokeless powder not black powder in this rifle.Thanks

[Chill Wills]

One good option is to mix your WW and soft lead (50%-50%) and to that, add 1% tin.
In other words, a 101 pound batch would have 50 lbs-WW and 50lbs soft lead plus 1lb tin. Smaller batches use the same ratio.

BTW- the correct spelling of Creedmore is 'Creedmoor'. It is often 'spellet' ;) wrong. :D



Have fun with that new sharps!

[Boz330]

One good option is to mix your WW and soft lead (50%-50%) and to that, add 1% tin.
In other words, a 101 pound batch would have 50 lbs-WW and 50lbs soft lead plus 1lb tin. Smaller batches use the same ratio.

BTW- the correct spelling of Creedmore is 'Creedmoor'. It is often 'spellet' ;) wrong. :D



Have fun with that new sharps!


Mike, does that work with BP as well? I have lots of WW lead and it shoots tight groups for about 10 or 12 rounds and then the leading begins to ruin everything. I'm really good on pure but if I could integrate those WWs it would stretch my supply considerable and the tin as well.

Bob

[Chill Wills]

Mike, does that work with BP as well?
Bob

Good morning Bob,
Yes, I think it does. It is my go to alloy for any BP shooting and works especially well to hold the slump on the long nosed High Bc bullets often used these days.
I use that alloy as a replacement for 16-1
You will see it called Rix-Mix sometimes but I didn't name it that. DanT and Zack T started in with that name years ago.

[Soundguy]

just don't try it in revolvers. :)

[SgtDog0311]

I wish I could figure out what I'm doing wrong. Mixed a batch of what should be close at 97/1.5/1.5. Bullets drop from a JIM409400M4 at .4085 but I lead enough to cause concern in my Cody .408 groove barrel - could be size. Just not sure. Have a great lube star with SPG but still leading. And leading seems to be collecting on top of the lands. Lube is proven, alloy is proven (from what I read nearly everywhere) but still leading. I have a lot to learn so go figure. Gonna see what that mold drops at with a 16:1 mix and if larger than .4085 then mayhaps I have to reconnoiter what the adjustments might be. Had thought to order a BACO with the base and next two bands at .410 and try that but could be I could make running temps higher and have the 409 produce bigger bullets. Like I said, have a lot to learn.
188711 188712 188713

[SgtDog0311]

btw... mixing two issues (leading and fouling) but just in case anyone wants to venture in here... I was wanting to blow-tube rather than wipe but last trip, after suspecting leading due to group sizes I wiped it out pretty good and started over but wiping this time. Groups cut in half albeit still not impressive. I typically start out with three slow breaths, breathing in my nose. Having some advise to increase that I went to five. First patches before commencing with the wiping routine I pushed a huge amount of fouling out in front of the patch. Temps were cool, around 60 degrees and I wondered if I was not blowing TOO MUCH moisture with five breaths. The wiping certainly improved results but evidently still have a lot of load tweaking to do based on my groups still being unacceptable.

[Don McDowell]

Leading on the lands, would be an indication the nose diameter is bigger than the bore..

[Gunlaker]

John, when I first started using that bullet in my Shiloh I had more leading than I like to see. I pretty much always shot that bullet with 16:1 and spg, or dgl lube. I solved it in two steps. First was to adjust the bullet seating depth out a bit more so that there is a lube groove at the case mouth. This helped a little. Next, and most importantly was changing my fouling management as I believe I was getting some dried out fouling in the throat, or just ahead of it. I used to wipe with a Rhoades delrin rod and it's integral jag. Now I use a nylon brush threaded into the rod and put a patch on that. It helped a lot. The rifle leads only a very tiny bit even in hot weather, and is exceptionally accurate.

Chris.

[SgtDog0311]

Don, the nose fits in the bore all the way past the first driving band. I thought perhaps it was bumping up back into the base of the nose but not sure. Alloy shouldn’t be allowing that but like I said, not sure. No way to recover bullets where I'm shooting at present.

Chris, thanks for sharing your experience. Right now I am seating out so three lube grooves show and the groove diameter shows on the driving band just in front of the case mouth. Requires very little thumb pressure to seat. I was gonna drive over to John Walters tomorrow night to get some tin and then mix up some 16:1. Figured I’d at least eliminate the alloy as a variable even though I know Chill Wills and several others are making it work just fine. I figure it’s something I’m doing wrong for that reason.

Is an integral jag those soft orange jags I see at the matches? Right now I have a brass jag on a delrin rod. I’ve seen those orange ones and I’ve seen people wiping with an arsenal patch on a nylon brush. I’d like to get where I could get away with blowing but I need to solve the leading first and can work on that as I go.

Regarding my group size I keep reading that OE 2f needs compression and it appears that it might. I’d like to save my OE1.5 for my 38-50 so gonna keep increasing compression with the 2f. Right now I’m not much over .100. 66 or 67gr should push me into the .200+ range. That's up next.

To the Op, sorry for the slight hijack!

[Gunlaker]

John, by an integral jag I just meant the one built into Steve Rhoades delrin rods. I have much better results with a reasonably tight patch n a nylon brush. It doesn't sound like it should make much difference, but it did for me. I'm not 100% sure why, but I imagine my old technique left some hard fouling behind. I'm using both Tipton nylon brushes, and Dewey ones.

Chris.

[SgtDog0311]

Thanks Chris, guess I hadn't seen one of those integral jobs before. I shot one of my first matches with SSShooter from over on ASSRA and he was using the nylon brush. I thought it looked very handy. By the way, was your leading down in the grooves. I had just a little there also but as you can see from the patches it was also leaving signs from the top of the lands. It was unusual enough for me to take pictures.

[Gunlaker]

Yessir, my leading was in the grooves. Maybe it's like Don suggests about the nose bumping up. I have a recovered .40 cal bullet that a friend gave to me. It's a Lyman Snover .40 cal bullet and most of the nose is heavily engraved. I don't know what alloy was used casting it, but it sure did bump up all the way.

I switched to the nylon brushes after having a fouling problem in hot weather. Then I noticed that pretty much every other BPTR shooter was using nylon brushes :-). It seems like the next trend might be the Buffalo Arms wiping system.

Chris.

[Boz330]

Good morning Bob,
Yes, I think it does. It is my go to alloy for any BP shooting and works especially well to hold the slump on the long nosed High Bc bullets often used these days.
I use that alloy as a replacement for 16-1
You will see it called Rix-Mix sometimes but I didn't name it that. DanT and Zack T started in with that name years ago.

I'm trying to work up a 40-65 load for that Brooks mold I got from you, with OE 2F. I had it figured out with Swiss but the OE is giving me fits. I get a good group one time but then it doesn't hold up for more of the same.
In my 45-70 LR rifle it seems to just shoot almost anything good with the OE. I use 68gr for mid range and 73gr for LR and can't tell any difference in group size. When it doesn't shoot well it is the nut behind the butt, not the gun.

Bob

[SgtDog0311]

Bob, I tried 1.5 but nothing promising so sticking with 2f till I get up in the compression ranges people have recommended. Be glad if you kept me posted on your efforts and I'll do the same.

On my leading issue I think I'll also load up some 4198. If I didn't get any leading that would tell me something about the nose setback.

[Don McDowell]

62 gr of 2f OE works pretty good with most bullets in the 40-65's that live here.
I would think that since the nose is smaller than the bore, the leading probably came from lube failure/fouling control problems.

[SgtDog0311]

Thanks Don. 62gr was one of my "potentials". I tried some others a second outing because they were slightly smaller groups. From the chronograph 62gr gave the best numbers: Low=1310, High=1314, Avg=1311; ES=4.13, SD=1.73. Sample was only five but so were the others. I'll try that over again as well as going up and I'll change up my fouling management. A different BACo arrived today so we'll see if drop size is different as well. I'd like it if it were slightly larger. Hopefully I can blend another batch of alloy tomorrow.

[Don McDowell]

Aww yes, the BACO bullet club... :) it's a dang fun thing to be in, and like my wife says, a new mould costs less than a new rifle. LOL
When you get a hold of enough of those blocks that changing handles is a pain, get ahold of Red River Rick and get a few sets of his handles, best non locking handles made.

[rbt50]

I use 1-20 and 1-30 mix in my 45/110 and 50/90

[Boz330]

62 gr of 2f OE works pretty good with most bullets in the 40-65's that live here.
I would think that since the nose is smaller than the bore, the leading probably came from lube failure/fouling control problems.
62 was one of the loads that looked promising along with 59gr and a wad column that gave .260 compression. According to The Greenhill formula for my boolit 1338fps should be a good velocity. If SgtDog's numbers hold up that would be about right. I have a number of 62gr loads made up, just need to shoot them at 300 and see what they do.

Bob

[SgtDog0311]

Aww yes, the BACO bullet club... :) it's a dang fun thing to be in, and like my wife says, a new mould costs less than a new rifle. LOL
When you get a hold of enough of those blocks that changing handles is a pain, get ahold of Red River Rick and get a few sets of his handles, best non locking handles made.

Never heard of Red River Rick but went and looked. Care to elaborate on what makes them the best non-locking handles?

I’m easily distracted (case of late-onset ADD) so I went and did a little inventory. I was thinking most of my Lee handles had alignment problems but I noticed my worst alignment was with an RCBS set of handles which adds a little wear on the alignment pins if you are a little careless in closing.

I generally have only one mould for each caliber but the 38-55 and the 40-65s are an exception. Then again I have two and three of those calibers respectively. I have two 32-40s as well but as yet have not picked up a mould for the Ballard. Brooks recommends Saeco handles with his moulds so I have intended to replace that one and I don’t have a set of handles for the Creedmoor. Just for grins and giggles here the list I just made:

Caliber Mould/Handles
30-30 Lyman/Lee
32-20 LBT/Lee
32Spcl RCBS/Lee
32-40 LBT/Lee
35Rem RCBS/RCBS
35-40 Brooks/Lee *want to replace these.
38-55 Accurate RD Clone/Lee
38-55 LBT/Lee
38-55 Old West NASA/Lee
38-50 Moss/RCBS
40-63 Accurate/Lee
40-65 RCBS 350/Lee
40-65 BACo Money/Locking BACo
40-65 Saeco/Saeco
40-65 BACo Creedmoor/None
45-70 Accurate/Lee

I’ve got two I was gonna stock with Saeco; money permitting I’d probably replace some others - but if Red River Rick is better than Saeco they are also cheaper unless his shipping is over the top.

Guess I'm straying considerable distance from the path here:-) ADD is hard on the original intent of these threads.

[Don McDowell]

His handles are really well built and finished. The nice thing about them is the handles are not large in diameter and only about 6 inches long. They don't wear your hand down like the Saeco, and Lyman handles do.

[SgtDog0311]

Thanks Don.

[Don McDowell]

You bet. Looking forward to seeing how your new BACO bullet works.

[demon1953]

have you slugged the barrel to determine true groove size? also have you crony'd the load to see what the true velocity is? next step, brownells sells a garnet based lapping compound (800 grit) might want to lap that bore and see what happens. D

[SgtDog0311]

Fellas, on those 62gr loads, are you stacking wads to get the compression you want? 62gr and a .060 wad gets me just about .060 compression in a fireformed case (reviously shooting formed cases as yet fired so could be just a little difference in what I was getting with the first time through). From that 62 grain I'd calculate another 3 wads to get up over .200 compression. So next question: is stacking that many wads a common practice? Anything to look out for.

Btw... I turned my pot up and got almost another half-thousands on the drop size, using to 16:1. I'm hoping a little larger bullet might help on the leading issue. If it does with the 16:1 then I'm gonna drop back and try hotter with the DanT alloy. Probably wipe with both first, see how that goes then try the BT again.

I've got some more of the 62gr loaded and ready to seat. May check back on the wads question and possibly add wads to some pending the feedback. Thanks!

[Gunlaker]

Stacking that many wads doesn't seem to be very common. Zack Taylor ( Desert Deuce on Shiloh ) does this and posted about it on the Shiloh forum. He is a very good master class shooter and his ideas are always worth paying attention to.

Chris.

[SgtDog0311]

Thanks Chris! Just double checked the compression. Used a dowel to push the first one down and the difference between that and seating depth would indicate .040 compression with one wad. Add three to that (.180) and I'd have .220 with four wads and 62gr. Not my preferred but I think I'll load 15 with one wad, then a 15 with four and see what the target says. Just wanted to make sure I was not doing anything dangerous. Maybe try one target with just three for a total of .160 compression.

[Gunlaker]

I wouldn't worry about pressure with the extra wads. Just keep an eye on the case length to make sure that the extra wads aren't causing you any case stretching problems. I was running 2 x 0.060" veg wads + 1 x 0.060" LDPE in my .45-90 for a while without trouble.

Chris.

[SgtDog0311]

Well I have to call it improvement at least. The wind died down here enough to finally shoot some of these loads. I’m gonna break this up for the pictures sake. Everything shot off sticks since I don’t seem to do much better off bags and a bench.

I tried the 62gr of OE 2f in a couple settings. First was just the compression my seating and a .060 wad gave, which was minimal at .040 compression. I cast a little hotter to try and bump the drop size up and it worked to at least get the base band up past .409. The bullets I tried before were about .4085. They were DanT’s antimonial alloy so I was left wondering if it was size or alloy. Mixed some more and only after I was done realized I’d made 17:1, not 16:1 but looks to be ok. The base band at the base of the ogive is .3995, then as cast it goes to .400, .402 and then on to full size, although they are slightly smaller than the base band – still better than the .4085 however. I elaborate there to show the fit as leading was a secondary issue to the poor group sizes. Hard to see but if you are looking at the bullet in-hand you can see the imprint of the lands on the film of lube still on the top band. You don’t see much after that till you get to be band in front of the case mouth, where the lands and actually the full circumference of the groove diameter imprint on the first third of that driving band. Don’t know if that is optimal or not but there it is.
189959

[SgtDog0311]

I initially shot five four-shot loads of smokeless just because I have more experience there and I wanted to eliminate the wiping vs blow tubing as a variable and I wanted to eliminate the rifle. In other words, if they shot then I know this BP should shoot. Looks like I could fine-tune here for some better groups. Anyway it satisfied me enough to move on with my BP loads.
189960 189961 189962 189963 189964

[SgtDog0311]

So, first three five-shot groups were the 62gr with the .040 compression. I started with a change up from previous five breaths but after the first target I started back to wiping. Showed immediately. Even with just two or three breaths there was enough fouling to cause me to quit on the BTing. Previous outing with five slow breaths, breathing in my nose, caused enough fouling to look like a load of tar in front of the patch. Which is hows-come I dropped back to less breaths. Sorry for the orientation!
189969 189970 189971

[SgtDog0311]

Next two groups were with four wads to get to .220 compression.
189973 189974
This was the only 1" 5-shot group I got. But it beats the heck out of the 5"-9" groups I was getting last time with the Blow Tubing.

[SgtDog0311]

Last group was with three wads for .160 compression (I think I inked in .180 but it was .160).
189975
I don't know what the heck is up with the low flyer.

[SgtDog0311]

If anyone is interested in the velocities, ES and SD, I put them on paper. Was a little surprised to see the four wads didn’t change much, then surprised again when three wads did drop velocities. I may have transposed some numbers but these show the gist of things pretty close. Note the smokeless is on the tail end even though I shot them first.
189976

Not sure how that would impact leading and since I seem to have that under control. Just a little smear at 12 o'clock on that patch... that is 10 o'clock if you tilt your head with the picture:-)
189977
I sure don’t want to back up any on the leading.

Any thoughts?

[Stevewhr]

That .220 compression load looks pretty exciting John. Would like to see that explored some more. My temptation would be fewer wads and more powder for the same compression, ie. perhaps 65 grains or something akin to that. The larger bullets and likely the better bump up appears to be offering you some returns. In that vein, more powder=more bump up perhaps. If you could get those bullets to cast ever so slightly larger I bet the leading would go away and perhaps your powder charges would work great. How bout I cast some of mine and my alloy and send them to you?

[SgtDog0311]

Steve, Might take you up on that but let me turn my pot up a little more first. Also gonna go back and cast some more of the DanT alloy at hotter temp and see if I get some gains there too. I am not giving up on that alloy yet. One thing I am sure as heck gonna have to do is get faster at wiping. I'd be leaving some steel animals at the speed I was moving today. Have to get some better mechanics at the sticks to be sure. I'll be blow tubing with the 38-50 this weekend but I'll be watching others, though most are on their shooting mats. I can't get down there so I have to learn more efficient motion at the sticks.

[Stevewhr]

Bang together a chicken box with the groove for your wiping rod, plus everything rides in the box that you can put right next you. I just remeasured my bullet. This time carefully with the micrometer. The base and the next 2 bands are .409" on the money, no pun intended. Then the nose south of the ogive is .400 as is the next, then .402". Still, I'd sure like to see a little more engraving on those bullets...

[SgtDog0311]

barnabus, Thanks for the patience with the piggyback. I swear this is all getting back around to 'alloy' from your original post. I am gonna see if hotter temps will bring size back around with the 97/1.5/1.5. And like you, that is all an effort to incorporate the wheel weights. I don't shoot anything as big as 530gr but if I did and it was with smokeless I wouldn't be afraid to use your wheel weights at all. I used to batch up everything I could collect with a probably 85- 90% being WW. Alloy comes out just under 11bhn; added just a little tin when I last put it all together. Never had any problems with leading or anything else shooting bullets .001-.002 over groove size. Even have a 38-55 I get away with right at groove size.

I have never shot your 5744 but I sure like the heck out of 4759 when I'm shooting smokeless and 5744 seems to be what everyone is replacing their 4759 with. Meters like dog food but in everything over 38, that or 4198 usually get me where I want to go. Fortunately I still have 12 lbs left.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I use a version of the PGT mould designed for the Pedersoli rifles. Cast 1:30 it weighs 546gns.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/PGTmold.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/PGTmold.jpg.html)

[Green Lizzard]

hey sarge, i would need first aid with five breaths....... Bill

[SgtDog0311]

BAW... good looking mould. Had not seen one before with the 'major arteries' for venting.

Bill, that's funny right there. Shoot, slow as I am, with five breaths I might even have 'time' issues BTing:-) Sure had plans for hyperventilation!

No way the amount of fouling is not gonna be a problem though. Which means I'm doing something wrong -- or perhaps with the right compression that burn is cleaner and fouling reduced... because I know some are blowing without pushing sludge and making 5 and 7" groups. Always understood one of OE's claim to fame was for a clean burn. Maybe 2f is different than 1 1/2? I have zero issues (unless I just have not caught them yet) with blowing w/my 35-50 & OE 1 1/2.

Other than wiping vs BT'ing in this instance, it was interesting to see how much compression tightened things up. More than one person told me compression needed to be .200 or better. I wasn't really looking for more velocity but guess that's my only option unless I want to really go through the wads or seat the bullet deeper.

This whole BP path has really illustrated the whole 'variable management' thing. I'm always wanting to make all the changes I suspect all at once. Not good!

[Stevewhr]

Can't think you'll see a huge velocity change John.

[Boz330]

I finally got a chance to shoot a bunch of 62 gr 40-65 loads that I tried with and without neck tension and varying compression levels. Tried some 1.5F Kik as well as 2F OE. The Kik was quite a bit slower than the OE. The best 2 loads were OE with .170 compression, 1 veggie wad and 1 poly wad no neck tension. The other load was OE with .001 to .002 neck tension. .110 compression and 1 poly wad.
These loads both gave 5" vertical groups at 300yd. I wasn't getting the velocity Sgt Dog was, mine were in the 1250fps with extreme spreads in the 30fps range. The first shot from the cleaned barrels was the fastest and the highest in the groups. All groups were 10 shots the ES on the 2nd 5 shots in the strings was very consistent 10fps or less ES. I used a blow tube for all groups.
For the follow up I'm going to try a little more compression and a little more powder and see if I can approach the optimal velocity for the boolit I'm using which is 1330 to 1340fps. Over all it was a productive shooting session and I feel like I'm getting close. In my 45-70 Pedersoli it seemed that compression in the .200 seemed to perform the best although it isn't near as picky as the 40-65.


Bob

[iplaywithnoshoes]

I had pretty frequent leading problems in all of my .45-70s. In the pistol, with heavier bullets, I got plenty in the muzzle. In the 27" Encore, the leading happened in the throat. I switched from purchased bullets at .458 to some new ones mic'd at .459-.462. My cast drop at about .461. This is with Lyman #2, fairly hard and my leading went away. With slower burning powders and duplex loads, the leading and powder fouling were literally mopped away. Even with BH209 pseudo BP loads, I had no leading.

shoe

[SgtDog0311]

Steve, with OE 1.5 I had a jump of 70fps going from 61gr to 65gr... according to that I'd go as high as 1425fps if I bump from 62gr of 2f to 66gr of 2f. But then again most other velocities I've tracked were between 5 and 10fps per-grain-increase, so hopefully not that much. Maybe I’ll throw a handful in of 64gr with two wads. Would keep me well under 1400 and give me the compression.

Bob, Thanks for the report. Between a few matches and a gong-gathering of friends down in Texas, which I’m behind loading for, I have done little with the 65s.

I'm slow on the uptake - and could be wrong even then - but I’m starting to think the load is just incidental to the compression. In other words, whatever load is dictated by seating depth to get at least .180 compression is where I’ll start and eventually find where my powder measure should be set. Target is still telling me what to do but it does shift my focus a bit. Until I give in to one of those mercury recoil compressor jobs my aim is for moderate velocity with compression dictated by accuracy. I hope to load and shoot for the 40-65s again week after this one coming up. I’ll post results when I get there. For now some 35-40 cases are calling my name. Still be keeping an eye out for your progress in the meantime. Sure wish I had a handy 300yd location.

Shoe, always found bigger was better. Prefer .002 over but between .001 and .003 usually cures leading. I say usually�� Some of these profiles are as new to me as BP. Don’t shoot revolvers enough to comment all that can be in play there.

[Gunlaker]

Bob, I'm surprised that your velocity is so low with OE FFg. I use OE 1.5 in my .40-65 and am using 60.5gr with a 400gr Money bullet and I'm running just under 1310 fps. Fifteen shot SD's are a little under 4 fps. The load shoots very well for midrange and silhouettes.

Interestingly I also use the Saeco 740 bullet which is a tiny bit heaver, but I use 58gr of FFFg Express. The load is a lot slower than my OE 1.5 load, at about 1250 fps. It also has bad muzzle velocity variation, but that really doesn't matter much for 200 which is as far as I use that load.

Chris.

[Boz330]

Bob, I'm surprised that your velocity is so low with OE FFg. I use OE 1.5 in my .40-65 and am using 60.5gr with a 400gr Money bullet and I'm running just under 1310 fps. Fifteen shot SD's are a little under 4 fps. The load shoots very well for midrange and silhouettes.

Interestingly I also use the Saeco 740 bullet which is a tiny bit heaver, but I use 58gr of FFFg Express. The load is a lot slower than my OE 1.5 load, at about 1250 fps. It also has bad muzzle velocity variation, but that really doesn't matter much for 200 which is as far as I use that load.

Chris.

Unfortunately my chrono doesn't do SD but I would think that it would be that low if I did the calculations to get from the extreme spread to SD. Even with a calculator that is a lot of key punching. At least I feel like I'm headed in the right direction. The velocity isn't as critical to me as the group. Max distance we shoot silhouettes at is 600yd and the extra 50fps shouldn't be that necessary. There is plenty of room in the case for more powder if I have to get more velocity.

Bob