Stevens Marksman strength

[gnoahhh]

I stumbled onto Stevens Marksman over the weekend which evidently started out as a .25 rimfire, but which someone converted to .25-20. Lockup felt tight, and whoever did it, did a masterful job- but, it's still a Stevens Marksman, will it handle the moxie of a .25-20?

Price struck me as reasonable, $300 including one of those clunky old Mossberg scopes. Bore is excellent. Lord help me, but I've about talked myself into going back for it.

[flint45]

Black powder loads if it were mine seem like a good price.

[slumlord44]

As I recall Frank De Haas in his book said the Marksman was one of the stronger boys rifles and suitable for the .22 Magnum. I don't know the pressure comparrisons to the .25-20 but I would be concerned about it. I have a Marksman in .44 Shot that has been reamed out to .410 shotgun. I have shot a few 2 1/2" shells through it with no ill effects but I am not totaly comfortable with it. John Taylor would be the one who's opinion I would trust if he is on line here.

[marlinman93]

I wouldn't feel comfortable with .25-20 in a Marksman myself.

[roadie]

I can't say I would be comfy with that setup, there's no locking mechanism apart from the lever link. While it does have the standing breech, the 25/20 is a bit more than I would care to fire in it.

The other thing with it is the barrel being held in with a setscrew as opposed to being threaded and having to handle more thrust than the factory intended.

[psweigle]

25auto but not 25-20 chev Williams is a veritable expert on all things 25 caliber

[Paul5388]

The old H&R Topper was cast and still handled .30-30 and I shoot a cast Handi in .357 Mag.

[Reg]

No. They were never intended for any ctg like that. Very unsafe.

[John Taylor]

I have one in 22LR and I remember seeing one in 44 shot. According to the book the modern 22LR is loaded to 24,000 psi which happens to be the same as the 22 mag and both 17s, not the new Winchester 17. The 44-40 is loaded to around 14,000 and the 25-20 around about 16,000. You can use these numbers to figure out bolt thrust, taking the area of the brass just in front of the rim and multiply it by the pressure. The 22LR has about 945 pounds of bolt thrust, the 44-40 about 2325 and the 25-20 about 1538. Now having all these numbers I don't know if the frame on the 22 is the same as the frame on the 44. Also need to consider the barrels is held in with a screw and the size of the pivot screw. As near as I can tell the 44 shot was loaded to the same pressure as the 44-40.

[Chev. William]

John,
Is that Bolt thrust calculation for the .25-20 Single shot or the .25-20 Winchester Cartridge?
I believe the Case Base diameters are different.
Also did not Frank de Haas say he thought the "Marksman" was suitable for .22WMR in his book on Single Shot rifles? The .22WMR has a larger body diameter than the.22RF Family.

psweigle,
The .25ACP, at .276" body diameter and 25,000psi MAP yields 1496 lbs of bolt thrust. The .25 Stevens Long at 24,000psi MAP yields 1436 lbs of Bolt Thrust The .22WMR at .242" body diameter and 24,000psi MAP yields 1104 lbs Bolt Thrust if i Calculated correctly.

Best regards,
Chev. William

[marlinman93]

.25-20 WCF is rated SAAMI 28,000 CUP. Old BP .25-20 WCF was rated 20,000 CUP. When deciding to chamber a gun in any caliber, I prefer to be cautious and think about what might be put into the chamber after it goes on to another owner. I might never load them to factory specs, but who knows what the next guy might do.

[Chev. William]

.25-20 WCF is rated SAAMI 28,000 CUP. Old BP .25-20 WCF was rated 20,000 CUP. When deciding to chamber a gun in any caliber, I prefer to be cautious and think about what might be put into the chamber after it goes on to another owner. I might never load them to factory specs, but who knows what the next guy might do.

Would you compare the .25-20 WCF and the .25-20 Single Shot?
Chev. William

[marlinman93]

Would you compare the .25-20 WCF and the .25-20 Single Shot?
Chev. William

Well the .25-20SS has no SAAMI data that I know of, but factory loads for the .25-20SS were about 65-70% of the hot factory loads in the .25-20WCF. Plus I doubt a factory .25-20SS will find it's way into any gun very often, even if the gun was originally chambered for that cartridge.
That said, I wouldn't chamber a Marksman in .25-20SS either, but I'm being cautious. A fair number of old guns were chambered in cartridges that today would raise an eyebrow. The old Stevens early tip up rifles were chambered in .38-55 and .32-40, and those calibers were later dropped when they tended to shoot loose. The early cast receiver Ballard #2 was chambered in .44-40 and .32-20, but Marlin dropped both cartridges later in that cast frame.
Much of the issue revolves around smokeless powders, hotter loads developed later, and what people can and have done to hotrod some calibers. Best to be cautious I think.

[John Taylor]

I had the wrong numbers for the 25-20. In one place it says 20,000 psi and 28,000 cup. psi and cup are not the same and can be 25% different in some cases.
Bolt thrust on the old 25-20 single shot and the Winchester 25-20 would be very close. The 25-20 Win was made shorter and a little fatter so it could be used in a 92.

[rintinglen]

I might do it as a 25-20, with the understanding that I was going to load it with slower burning powders and 60 grain boolits to not more than 1100 fps.

[marlinman93]

Bolt thrust on the old 25-20 single shot and the Winchester 25-20 would be very close. The 25-20 Win was made shorter and a little fatter so it could be used in a 92.

The .25-20 WCF was another cartridge stolen from Marlin, John. Marlin came out with the .25-20 Marlin in their model 1889. Winchester simply took that design and started producing it as their .25-20WCF.

[John Taylor]

I guess my book has it wrong, says 25-20 came out in 1893 or 1897. Basically a 32-20 necked down to 25. I have a Marlin 27 chambered in 25-20, neat little rifle that is up for sale.
Some info on the 1889 Marlin said the only ones made in 25-20 were the fancy pistol grip and they were made after 1894. Also some of the 1889 were marked 1894. I guess it all depends on who's book you are reading. The 1889s that were in 32-20 were marked 32 W. I don't know because I was not there at the time and have to rely on what others say.

[marlinman93]

Even Cartridges of the World argues that some say the .25-20WCF came out in either 1893 and others say 1895 John. The .25-20M came out in 1894 in the 1889 Marlin, and later in the 1894 Marlin. The first 1894 Marlins didn't leave Marlin until the end of June in 1894, so earlier guns that year were 1889 Models. But even guns after July were actually 1889's with the 1894 trigger plate, hammer, and lever. I had an 1894 SRC that was all 1889 except the trigger plate, lever and hammer, but lettered as a 1894 sent out in the first 50 or so guns. All the 1889 Marlins were special order guns, but not sure if they were all pistol gripped or not. But I believe there was only 25-30 made in the .25-20M caliber.