Wasted Powder, 3F vs 2F

[54bore]

Earlier this winter i gave my dad a .54 Cal Hawken Barrel in tip top condition, the fit in his Renegade stock was PERFECT, didn't have to mess with anything. We were excited to get out and shoot it, Conditions weren't the greatest with lots of snow on the Ground, but off we went. My dad has always shot 100 Grains of Goex 2F with a Maxi Ball (Elk load, everything load!) I think he shot 6 times total, after each shot i did a quick run up and would tell him where he hit, made a few sight moves and he was dead on, After his last shot we trudged through the snow together to the Target, We hadnt made it 20 Yards from the Gun and my dad said 'hey, look at this unburned powder' I got to looking at it close, i was SHOCKED at how much wasted/unburned powder was scattered across the top of the snow, I would say a good 20 yard trail that looked like pepper sprinkled on top of the snow. By the looks of it we figured 80 Grains is all that is actually being utilized, maybe 90?
This Spring/Summer i plan on doing a BUNCH of Chronograph/Powder testing, I bet 70-80 Grains of 3F will give better velocity, and a more efficient burn? My dad realizes now that there is waste in his 100 grain load of 2F, as to how much waste we are not sure? Opinions? I might do some more experimenting with this while we stil have snow, its kinda neat to see whats being burned and whats not? My TC Manual gives a Max charge of 120 Grains of 2F, talk about a waste of powder!!

[Leslie Sapp]

I've never felt the need for more than about 70 gr behind a maxi ball in my .50 cal Hawken. That load will blow through both shields of a big boar hog and leave chunks of lung lying on the ground on the off side. What more is needed? Maybe out West where longer shots are taken you might need a little more velocity for a flatter trajectory, but here I doubt I've ever shot anything over 50 yards away.

[54bore]

I've never felt the need for more than about 70 gr behind a maxi ball in my .50 cal Hawken. That load will blow through both shields of a big boar hog and leave chunks of lung lying on the ground on the off side. What more is needed? Maybe out West where longer shots are taken you might need a little more velocity for a flatter trajectory, but here I doubt I've ever shot anything over 50 yards away.

The point i am making is the 100 grains of Goex 2F powder is not being burned, some of it is being blown out the barrel unburned, therefore a waste.
I cant say i have noticed this with my Swiss 2F, but i havnt payed attention in snow? My chronograph should tell me this spring/summer how much powder is being utilized. Swiss is VERY noticeably hotter powder

[00buck]

I found 80gr of 2f was more accurate out of my TC Hawkins
I noticed the same unburned powder when I used 100gr also.

[bob208]

yep you are right. a lot think they have to dump so much powder in to make more power. well you have hit upon the test to find your max load. start over fresh snow or in the summer paper or a tarp. start low and keep shooting while increasing the powder when you start to get unburned powder back off to the load before that. this will be you max load. anything more is just a waste unburned powder on the ground does not make the bullet kill better or any thing else. the only thing it does is empty the horn faster. with powder being so hard to get and the expense more sohts per pound would be a good thing.

[Good Cheer]

Don't know why but the accurate load throwing unburned powder out of the muzzle is still the accurate load.
By the way, is it a shorty barrel and did you check to see whether you were seeing ash and powder on the snow or just ash?

[54bore]

Don't know why but the accurate load throwing unburned powder out of the muzzle is still the accurate load.
By the way, is it a shorty barrel and did you check to see whether you were seeing ash and powder on the snow or just ash?

Not a shorty barrel, its a full length TC Hawken barrel, 28-29" it has that QLA muzzle (i dont like) This was definitely powder flakes, i picked them up.

[54bore]

Right now is the time to test this with all the snow we have, a tarp or sheet wouldn't work well at all unless they were 30 yards long, The noticeable flakes didnt start til around 10 yards or so past the muzzle and went for a good 20 yards

[tomme boy]

The Swiss powder is a hair faster than others. It also burns a little cleaner. That may be the reason you have not noticed the unburned powder.

Myself I like 3f.

[Outpost75]

I use 80 grains of Goex 3Fg in my .50 cal. 24" Green Mountain LRH, 28" twist barrel with 370-grain Maxi-Ball cast 1:40 tin/lead from Roto Metals with equal parts by melted volume of Goya Manteca and beeswax. Clean burning, accurate, stone killer!

[mooman76]

3f would burn a little cleaner and more of it would be burt completely but I don't think I would want to try 100gr of 3f. Some guy posted a formula for what was the most you could burn in a BP gun. I don't know if it was this site or another or how gredible it was. One thing though, the formula didn't account for twist rate or projectile weight which I am sure would have a factor in the end results. Some people tend to think that loading more and more powder resulting in more recoil means it's being burned but at some point it isn't being burned or at least not in the gun and more recoil is just more weight and pressure to push out the barrel so more felt recoil. I myself am not an advocate of real heavy charges, not even for hunting but each person their self has to decide at what point enough is enough.

[54bore]

3f would burn a little cleaner and more of it would be burt completely but I don't think I would want to try 100gr of 3f. Some guy posted a formula for what was the most you could burn in a BP gun.

100 grains of any 3F is DEFINITELY more than i would care to try. I am thinking more in the range of 70-80 grains of 3F, with Swiss powder i would say 80 Tops, Goex 3F maybe 90?

[rodwha]

A bit off topic but still worthwhile...

You might be interested in trying Olde Eynsford powder made by Goex. It was designed to compete with Swiss and according to chronographed results it performs as well as Swiss and Triple 7 but is much cheaper and an American product.

[54bore]

A bit off topic but still worthwhile...

You might be interested in trying Olde Eynsford powder made by Goex. It was designed to compete with Swiss and according to chronographed results it performs as well as Swiss and Triple 7 but is much cheaper and an American product.

I just recently picked up a can of Goex 3F, i was gonna get the Olde E as it was only 2 dollars more a pound, i asked the guy his opinion? (he competes and shoots a BUNCH) he told me in his experience the difference was tiny between Olde E and Regular Goex, i ended up going with standard Goex 3F, i am sure i will end up trying the Olde E powder. I didn't think Olde E was quite up to par with Swiss?

[Outpost75]

100 grains of any 3F is DEFINITELY more than i would care to try. I am thinking more in the range of 70-80 grains of 3F, with Swiss powder i would say 80 Tops, Goex 3F maybe 90?

In my rifles 80 grains of Goex 3Fg gives the same velocity as 100 of Goex 2Fg or 90 grains of Swiss.

[NSB]

OK, you noticed something today. The thing is, it's always been there. Any and all black powders leave a LOT of unburned powder. If you were to take several different powders out and shoot similar shots with them you'd notice they all leave a lot of powder on top of the snow. Heck, you get the same thing with smokeless shotgun powders to some extent. If I were you, I'd worry about what load shoots the best and head in that direction. I'm guessing you'll do better at less than 100 grains. I recently read where some black powders have as much as 25% go unburned and that's normal for those powders. I wouldn't worry too much about what you call waste if it's shooting good.

[54bore]

In my rifles 80 grains of Goex 3Fg gives the same velocity as 100 of Goex 2Fg or 90 grains of Swiss.

Outpost75, This makes sense, I was thinking in these lines. Have you ever tried the Goex Olde E powder? I have easy access to all of these powders. So far my favorite is the Swiss stuff, other than it costing more.

[Leslie Sapp]

The point i am making is the 100 grains of Goex 2F powder is not being burned, some of it is being blown out the barrel unburned, therefore a waste.

I understood you, and I think your idea of testing velocity while reducing the loads is a good approach.
Please post the results when you have them, I'd be interested in knowing what the most efficient load is.

[johnson1942]

i know you cant use mag spark nipples in idaho but if you could there would be a lot less unburned powder coming out of your dads barrel. also if his gun had a 1/32 vent hole drilled into the powder chamber as talked about before not too long ago there would even be less unburned powder if any at all.

[rodwha]

I just recently picked up a can of Goex 3F, i was gonna get the Olde E as it was only 2 dollars more a pound, i asked the guy his opinion? (he competes and shoots a BUNCH) he told me in his experience the difference was tiny between Olde E and Regular Goex, i ended up going with standard Goex 3F, i am sure i will end up trying the Olde E powder. I didn't think Olde E was quite up to par with Swiss?

His opinion wasn't worth much it would seem. It is drastically better than standard Goex, which is quite weak in comparison. It performs on par with Swiss and T7.

Here is a nice comparison test:

http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php?topic=6410.0

I've only used Olde E so I can't say how the fouling compares to other BPs, but from those who have they always say it's much cleaner than standard Goex.

[johnson1942]

has anyone ever done pressure tests on 4f powder? once i put 80 grains by volume behind a patched 50 cal roundball. 1/60 twist. cracked like a whip, never a need to wipe between shots and was very very accurate. did several shots in a row like this but stopped because i didnt know the pressure. no sign of danger on the primer. was using a mag spark nipple with a shot shell primer. would keep doing it is i thought it was safe. had a friend who had a foster child that had grown up but still stayed with him.the young man would win matches with a cva flintlock using 80 grains of 4f behind a patched 50 cal round ball. said also the sound was like a whip cracking. shot very very accurate and never had to clean between shots.is this dangerous?

[Fly]

Well I have always used 3FFFG in my rifles.
Fly

[JSnover]

OK, you noticed something today. The thing is, it's always been there. Any and all black powders leave a LOT of unburned powder. If you were to take several different powders out and shoot similar shots with them you'd notice they all leave a lot of powder on top of the snow. Heck, you get the same thing with smokeless shotgun powders to some extent.
That^
I've seen unburned powder with black and smokeless, some brands more than others, some loads more than others. At the gunshop/indoor range one day they explained why BP was forbidden: Too much unburned powder on the floor. They actually had two fires before they banned the use of it at their range.
Find a load that works, dial it up or down for best accuracy. Be happy.

[Hellgate]

If I found a load that cut cloverleafs @ 100 yds and left a ton of unburned powder on the snow I wouldn't care a whit as long as the ball or bullet zipped along at a rapid deer/elk killing clip. It's not like you are shooting 1000rds a week. If you are working up a big game hunting load who cares if you waste a little powder as long as you have that confidence that the ball is going where you aim it. The confidence in an accurate load is well worth a little wasted powder. How many shots do we really shoot a game animal? 3 a year? Yeah, very few. For target shooting in volume then economics are a consideration.
Geeze, just think of the gas you burn in your 4WD just getting to the hunting place. 2 gallons is about 5 bucks. OK, so there's about a quarter pound of powder. BFD. Shoot whatever it takes to get an accurate killing load and fuggettaboutit. That's my rant.:D

[54bore]

If I found a load that cut cloverleafs @ 100 yds and left a ton of unburned powder on the snow I wouldn't care a whit as long as the ball or bullet zipped along at a rapid deer/elk killing clip. It's not like you are shooting 1000rds a week. If you are working up a big game hunting load who cares if you waste a little powder as long as you have that confidence that the ball is going where you aim it. The confidence in an accurate load is well worth a little wasted powder. How many shots do we really shoot a game animal? 3 a year? Yeah, very few. For target shooting in volume then economics are a consideration.
Geeze, just think of the gas you burn in your 4WD just getting to the hunting place. 2 gallons is about 5 bucks. OK, so there's about a quarter pound of powder. BFD. Shoot whatever it takes to get an accurate killing load and fuggettaboutit. That's my rant.:D

LOL, You obviously dont me and my careless spending of money, If i thought i was gaining anything i would fill the barrel with powder til it was spilling out, then sprinkle a trail of it to the target. I shoot Swiss powder, and i have ZERO care about paying extra for it
All i was pointing out is my dad's rifle is NOT burning 100 Grains of Goex 2F, thats all

[54bore]

If I found a load that cut cloverleafs @ 100 yds and left a ton of unburned powder on the snow I wouldn't care a whit as long as the ball or bullet zipped along at a rapid deer/elk killing clip. It's not like you are shooting 1000rds a week. If you are working up a big game hunting load who cares if you waste a little powder as long as you have that confidence that the ball is going where you aim it. The confidence in an accurate load is well worth a little wasted powder. How many shots do we really shoot a game animal? 3 a year? Yeah, very few. For target shooting in volume then economics are a consideration.
Geeze, just think of the gas you burn in your 4WD just getting to the hunting place. 2 gallons is about 5 bucks. OK, so there's about a quarter pound of powder. BFD. Shoot whatever it takes to get an accurate killing load and fuggettaboutit. That's my rant.:D

I shot this Target at 80 yards, 5 shot group from my .50 Cal Green Mountain LRH Hotrod Renegade, 90 Grains of Swiss 2F, i have no idea if its burning all of the powder or not? Nor do i care.
188567

[triggerhappy243]

54bore, do you have a copy of the lyman black powder hand book and reloading manual?

[54bore]

54bore, do you have a copy of the lyman black powder hand book and reloading manual?

Yes i do, 2nd edition by Sam Fadala

[triggerhappy243]

Compare the data for the 24 inch barrel to the 28 inch barrel shooting the 430 maxi-ball, not the 530 gr. Note that the velocity increase stumbles just past 90 gr.

[rfd]

i won't waste time and money on so-so black powder that leaves consistency and clean up to be desired. i use swiss 3f for my flintlock ml's and swiss 1-1/2f for my cartridge rollers and sharps. olde eynesford is also good black powder and i'll be doing more testing with it this year to compare to swiss. from what i've experienced so far, i may just switch to OE and stay onshore for my bp powder choice, and save some money to boot.

in my testing with flintlock bores of .32 to .62, i've never seen a need for more than 70 grains of swiss 3f for the .54, .58 and .62 rifles and smoothbores. couple that with a well lubed patch of a tested thickness and i get easy loading and good accuracy. i've cast, loaded and shot t/c maxi and lee REAL bullets, they all work fine with 70 grains or less of swiss 3f. as always, ymmv ....

[Boaz]

I quit using 2f years ago , only use 3f . Just my opinion but it burns better with less wiping during a long shoot . Plus just one powder for rifle and pistols .

[rfd]

i also prime the pan with 3f - there's no need for 4f and one horn does it all. at least for me, ymmv.

[54bore]

rfd, i have some pre weighed charges ready to try, 70 grains of Swiss 3F, my dad wants to give it a try in his .54 Cal, gonna try for this today. Will post how it goes.

[54bore]

rfd, i have some pre weighed charges ready to try, 70 grains of Swiss 3F, my dad wants to give it a try in his .54 Cal, gonna try for this today. Will post how it goes.

This is gonna have to wait it's Pi$$in down rain here this morning, That's about all we have been getting lately, Rain n snow. I am definitely ready for better weather! Have a ton of testing to do, weather permitting. Hopefully my new .533 .54 Cal Custom Paper Patch mold shows up in the mail today so i can at least pour bullets and cut paper

[OverMax]

Just my thoughts on side lock rifles..
Since this part of the Country usually has a snow covered ground during deer hunting season. I've witnessed the same many times {Five Four Bore.} That 2FFg Gorex brings back memory's gents. I remember my thoughts the very first time I seen that powder speckled snow. "Damn >What a waste of powder!!" But I took that loss of powder as being what muzzle loaders are known to do.

By accident I figured out how to eliminate some of that powder waste in my 54 & 58 guns. I changed out their #11 nipples with Mag Spark nipples which seen to deliver a much hotter punch like ignition than the anemic #11 caps. Frankly: I'm a believer the larger bore firearms using 90_100_110 charges of Black anything powder are good candidates for musket cap use or the dandy Mag Spark nipple. Some fellows promote a Hot Sot nipple. But I think its not the delivery of spark. Its the amount of heat in the spark that garners a bigger better ignition in the breech. Oh well.


Given some thought I curbed allot of that un-burnt powder loss by my change up in rifles. I've been shooting a 45 cal Hawken with puny little #11s mounted on a Knight Hot Shot for quite a few years. lol
72 gr charge of Groex 2-F poured out of a cut Charger under a patched ball leave so little un-burnt powder on the snow is most unnoticeable. And that >I like! (;

[54bore]

OverMax, I fully agree on the intensity of the spark/heat, but here in Idaho it's not legal on a Muzzleloader only hunt to use Magsparks, or the other one that uses rifle primers (cant remember the name now? jjarrel recently started a thread on them) Here it is the 11's or Musket Caps, i thought about trying Musket Caps but everything i have read claims the new Magnum 11s are just as hot as the Muskets? I have never used a Musket Cap so I can't comment on them. The 11s i use are the German RWS 1075 Plus Caps, then CCI Magnum 11s, i have at least a thousand of each, the German 1075 Plus caps are over twice the cost of the CCI's, they are 11.00 a hundred around here, and the CCI's are 5.00 a 100, These last CCI Magnums i bought seem every bit as hot as the German 1075 Plus caps. If it were legal here i would DEFINITELY go to a Magspark or the other one.

[OverMax]

Five Four Bore. Before I went the to Mag Sparks use on my 54s. My rifles were equipped with T/C Musket Nipples.
RWS musket 1218 6 flange caps are my choice for such nipples.
Well sir up until RWS became unobtainable in the first so called primer shortages. That's when I made the change to Mag Spark 209s use for my side locks. Haven't regretted the change up so far.
I know Idaho has some tough B/P restrictions. But such tough hunting ordinances are usually brought about by those who take advantage. Not everyone plays fair when Big Game Hunting. (my comment {above} in no way applies to you Five Four Bore or any member of C/Bs )

[54bore]

I know Idaho has some tough B/P restrictions. But such tough hunting ordinances are usually brought about by those who take advantage. Not everyone plays fair when Big Game Hunting. (my comment {above} in no way applies to you Five Four Bore or any member of C/Bs )

I agree! You can NOT use Sabots here in Idaho either on a Muzzleloader only hunt, And yet there's stil guys that get caught doing it, A good friend of mine that runs a sport shop here told me that the Game Wardens can, and will unload your rifle to check if they have reason to suspect. I dont know what their method is to unloading a sidelock but they can definitely do it. Play by the rules and you have no problems PLAIN N SIMPLE!
So far my 11 Magnum Caps have not given me any trouble whatsoever, i get good immediate ignition! I cant see how i would gain anything by switching to musket caps? Are they really that much hotter than an 11 Mag Cap? From what i have read most claim not? I might get a nipple and 100 caps to try

[mooman76]

I would assume they use one of those Co2 dischargers.

[54bore]

I would assume they use one of those Co2 dischargers.

That is probably right, something along those lines

[OverMax]

I use CCI #11 mag caps on my 45. But being a small bore rifle anything bigger than a #11 in primer would probably give me hammer jump. But the 54 & 58 such a nipple backfiring is less likely do to the different breech pressures I'm speculating?
BTW Minn doesn't have such tight B/P hunting restrictions Idaho has in place Five Four Bore. Only restriction that bothers many here. No scope use for Big Game Animals by those under the age of 65. Older geezers get to use em which is OK with me. Those who have been buying hunting licenses for 50 years straight deserve such breaks occasionally.

Never hurts to experiment a little. Musket caps & nipple. Its only a 15 dollar investment BUT ~~~may garner a smile "Right from the get go."

[jjarrell]

I don't really buy the fire over snow or a sheet test. There is a lot of waste left behind from burned black powder. I think half of the volume of a load is burned waste after firing as burned charcoal, salt peter, and sulphur. You're always going to have black particles of burned waste blown out the barrel, therefor no matter what load you use you'll have specks on snow or a sheet. I could be wrong but I've read this somewhere.

[54bore]

I don't really buy the fire over snow or a sheet test. There is a lot of waste left behind from burned black powder. I think half of the volume of a load is burned waste after firing as burned charcoal, salt peter, and sulphur. You're always going to have black particles of burned waste blown out the barrel, therefor no matter what load you use you'll have specks on snow or a sheet. I could be wrong but I've read this somewhere.

I recently shot 80 Grains of Swiss 2F out of my TC Scout Pistol, i believe they call it a 10" bbl? We could NOT find a flake or speck on the ground anywhere? I was shooting over a solid white blanket of snow, This day i shot a Sabot jacket with a 180 grain hornady XTP pistol bullet, i found the jacket, but ZERO unburned powder. After my Dad shot, it looked like you walked in a straight line for 20-30 yards sprinkling a pepper shaker, I definitely believe there is something to it! Swiss 2F is HOT powder, everyone i have talked to about it claims it to be equivalent to Goex 3F or really close to it

[rodwha]

I'd be willing to bet it is hotter still. Most other powders are quite weak in comparison.

[triggerhappy243]

How well does your dad's 54 group with the 100 gr. load?

[54bore]

How well does your dad's 54 group with the 100 gr. load?

It shoots REALLY good! My Dad is a REALLY good open sight shooter! So it doesnt matter that its not burning all the powder, this is more of a curiosity thing to me

[triggerhappy243]

i am curious too. you saw the group i shot with 90 gr. now i want to try going in both directions. i can see the logic of the black particles in the snow. we don't get much snow here, and i cant handle the cold real well. hands cramp up. every time i read one of your threads, i say dang it, i gotta try that.

[54bore]

i am curious too. you saw the group i shot with 90 gr. now i want to try going in both directions. i can see the logic of the black particles in the snow. we don't get much snow here, and i cant handle the cold real well. hands cramp up. every time i read one of your threads, i say dang it, i gotta try that.

The bullet he has shot the best is the Maxi Ball that you and i both have, the one with the rounded lube grooves. That bullet shoots AMAZING out of his rifle! From this Mold
188788

[54bore]

The Sizing and Paper Patching of that Maxi Ball is an Experiment, MAN do they load nice after a trip through my .539 Sizing die!

[54bore]

I'd be willing to bet it is hotter still. Most other powders are quite weak in comparison.

I agree rodwha, For anyone that has not tried it all i can say is this Swiss stuff is very noticeably hotter powder! I showed Idahoron the granule size of this Swiss 2F when he was here on his whitetail hunt, i remember his words well 'that is some fine 2F!'

[jjarrell]

I recently shot 80 Grains of Swiss 2F out of my TC Scout Pistol, i believe they call it a 10" bbl? We could NOT find a flake or speck on the ground anywhere? I was shooting over a solid white blanket of snow, This day i shot a Sabot jacket with a 180 grain hornady XTP pistol bullet, i found the jacket, but ZERO unburned powder. After my Dad shot, it looked like you walked in a straight line for 20-30 yards sprinkling a pepper shaker, I definitely believe there is something to it! Swiss 2F is HOT powder, everyone i have talked to about it claims it to be equivalent to Goex 3F or really close to it

There may very well be something to it. I've never tried it. It makes sense i guess. You take an inefficient propellant like black powder (by modern standards) and it stands to reason that as charges increase some of it wont be burned after a certain point.