1st 45-70 Reloads...Do they Look Right?

[Chili]

This is my first attempt at loading the 45-70.
The rifle is a Winchester/Miroku 1886.
My question is are they supposed to have rifling marks after being chambered? I have heard these rifles have a short lead. Guess it's true. Question is...is it safe to shoot? https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170220/be019f0980c8b6c17d5821b4b64cb3a1.jpg

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[Grapeshot]

As long as the boolit is NOT pulled from the case when you cycle the action, you're fine. The cartridges are safe to shoot as they are.

[Chili]

Thank you Sir. They are in there nice and firm. Never seen this before when reloading for rifles, but, this is my first straight wall case rifle too.

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[knifemaker]

By having the bullet engaging the lands will most times increase the accuracy when using cast lead boolits. There will be a slight raise in pressure, but that should be ok unless you loaded up some super duper high velocity loads that are max or over max.

[Chili]

Nothing max here! According to Lyman's 49th, these are 1873 Springfield to low end 1886 Winchester loads.

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[osteodoc08]

Brownings have no throat to speak of. At least the several I have dont

[badbob454]

if you are not at max, and you aren't ... these should work just fine..

[Bird]

Chili, what bullet is that. I agree, that should be safe.

[Chili]

Bird, the bullets are from Georgia Arms. They are supposed to 405grs, but weights are from 401 to 406. Instead of several small lybe grooves, these have one big groove.

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[buckshotshoey]

As others stated, should be ok with cast boolit. A red flag with copper jacket boolit. And it might be that other boolit designs won't touch. If it bothers you, trim cases a few thousandth shorter.

What lengths did you trim the cases to?

[Chili]

As others stated, should be ok with cast boolit. A red flag with copper jacket boolit. And it might be that other boolit designs won't touch. If it bothers you, trim cases a few thousandth shorter.

What lengths did you trim the cases to?
****....I forgot to trim them! [emoji35] Well...when I actually trim cases, they are done to minimum length.

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[KMac]

Just curious, are you at the recommended OAL for that particular bullet? Not trying to give any advice here, just trying to learn something.


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[Chili]

I see they bleeped out in my previous post

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[Chili]

Just curious, are you at the recommended OAL for that particular bullet? Not trying to give any advice here, just trying to learn something.


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These measured 2.514 inches. HSM loads with a comparable bullet are 2.547 inches.

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[buckshotshoey]

Yea. The forum algorithm does it automatically. Lol. Off the top of my head, I think the trim to length is 2.095, and max length is 2.105.

[Chili]

I thought it was funny that word got bleeped. I'll check my books when I get home for the COL.

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[buckshotshoey]

I thought it was funny that word got bleeped. I'll check my books when I get home for the COL.

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Cool. Just remember when loading a straight wall cartridge that uses a roll crimp... equal and consistent trim- to length becomes more important for shot to shot consistency.

[pietro]

.

FWIW, the max OAL for cycling a cartridge in a Miroku/Winchester 1886/86 is around 2.65/2.66", w/o modification - and they have NO throat, and so are sensitive to boolit profile/design.

Although they can be modified to cycle a cartridge 2.88" long, they will then not cycle shorter cartridges reliably.


IIRC, the SAAMI C.O.L. for the .45-70 is 2.50".




.

[Chili]

That all y'all for the info. Lyman shows COL to be 2.550. Pietro is darn near spot on! I guess I'll ensure the bext batch is trimmed to 2.105 or 2.100 to see if that eliminates the rifling marks.

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[knifemaker]

Chili before you change anything, shoot those you have loaded for accuracy test. You might get lucky and end up staying with what you have now. My Marlin 1895 LTD-5 will shoot my 350 gr. cast bullets into a 1 inch group and the load is only about 10 thousands off the lands. You may get lucky with that 1886.

[curator]

Chili: These look mostly good to me. Cast boolits touching or lightly engraving on the rifling's leade is usually good. "Store-bought" cast boolits are often undersize (.458") for best accuracy in most .45-70 barrels, My various .45-70s require .460 to .462 to shoot accurately without leading. Mike your boolits and see how different diameters shoot. The slightly scuffed area visible on cases just below the boolit appear to be a tiny bit bulged. Crimping at the same time as seating the boolit can and will create a bulge and affect neck tension. ALWAYS crimp as a separate step with the seating screw not touching the boolit to avoid this.

[Chili]

Curator...thanks for the advise. I do crimp as a separate step. Those loads were not crimped in the groove. I don't plan on using store cast bullets for ever, just until I can get a NOE mold.
Those store bullets were all over the weight range...400 through 406 grains. Too much variance for my liking.

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[Chili]

Knifemaker... I will be testing 4 different loads this weekend. Previously the accuracy wasn't too bad, 5 rounds about 2 inches from 25yards.

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[Chili]

I shot 20 rounds in 4 batches of 5 rounds. All had a commercial cast 405 gr lead bullet with SR4759 charges of 24.5, 25, 25.5 and 26 grains.

From what I could tell both 25gr loads seemed to group very well when tested at 25 yards. The problem is they hit about 11 inches below point of aim even with the rear sight set almost to its highest elevation. What could be the issue? Too high of a front sight?

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[Chili]

Here is the target. I was aiming at the center of the middle blue diamond. Bullet impacts are circled in red.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170227/fc5f78613b5661de342ca266a6c456d0.jpg

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[2ndAmendmentNut]

I have two older Browning 86s, at first both shot low. I posted about this a little while back, lots of good suggestions for raising point of impact in those threads. For smokeless loads I found 39grs of RX 7 with a paper patched 405gr boolit to cycle and shoot wonderfully. The carbine I corrected by filing the front sight, the rifle shot paper patched loads significantly higher than standard grease groove boolits. Both now shoot 1.5" to point of aim at 100yards from a rest.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170227/1824a68a460cfd38408004ac84a0f760.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170227/b95f48482e47f4b1f1703a85ae99cb99.jpg

These are roll crimped and loaded in the magazine. No reliability issues.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170227/6561e10bb36cfbf8978177d039384d56.jpg

50 yard target.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170227/ade718e931e7dcea63425c5332fcda03.jpg

100 yard 3-shot group measured center to center (ignore the shots to the left, that was before I adjusted the sights).
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170227/0ba8d8a7b86a21cfd214a2383c1eda40.jpg

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[Lloyd Smale]

ill go against the grain a bit. Yes as they are you should have no problem but if your shooting a fairly heavy recoiling load theres a chance the ones in the tube might jump crimp a tad. No big deal if your shooting targets but I wouldn't want to take that chance on a hunt. Id shoot them up and seat the next ones a bit deeper or if you cant because of the crimp grove trim your brass a bit shorter. An 86 isn't a bench rest gun and never will be. I rather have total reliability then a 1/10 of an inch smaller group.

[Caster1977]

I do my accuracy testing off a Bog-Pog bipod rest. It helps ME absorb the recoil a lot better. Shooting from the bench causes serious bruising and soreness.


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[TCLouis]

Looks like they followed TC's lead in chambering technique and have NO throat in the barrel.