Sights for a Custom Trapdoor

[tangsight]

When my father passed away, I inherited a custom made, trapdoor Springfield actioned 45-70, made in the style of what would be called a Gemmer Hawken. The rifle is still essentially new. I thought to use it in BPCR silhouette with a Montana Vintage Arms (or similar) telescopic sight, my eyes being older each day.

BUT, I quickly realized the door would open into the scope tube, unless I could offset the sight somehow (as I have seen done with Winchester lever guns).

Alternatively, a Soule type of rear sight would work, but I don't want to monkey with the front sight blade, which is a unique piece of work using a 1900 Indian head penny as the dovetail.

Is there a way to mount period correct optics on this rifle? If not, will the handicap of a simple post front sight, without a hood or a spirit level, be too great to overcome?

[KCSO]

Whhat kind of shooting are you going to do? For hunting and plinking a regular blade front and even an inexpensive peep will do. If you are wanting to shoot long range targets you really need a different rifle. The trapdoors even in their day were noted for stringing shots up and down and the military solved this by shooting on an oval target. New sights won't make the gun any more competetive. If you want to shade the front sight do waht the old timers did and make a tin hood to clamp on the barrel. (see Ned Roberts Caplock Rifle for drawings) The rear peep can be used with a base carefully inlet into the stock behind the tang. With the right disks even older eyes can usually do a pretty goood job on targets with a peep. If you really really want to mount a scope you need to find an old sliding mount where the scope slides forward for reloading and back into place for shoooting, like a Unertl without the spring.

[Gussy]

I have an original 1888 with Buffington sights. It does shoot very well in my limited tests so far (under 2" @ 100 off a bench with my first load and I think it will do well under that with some load work). I don't know what model you have but for $20.00 you can buy an original sight cover. I did and they are still available. The Buffington is graduated to about 2000 yds!! It is easy to use and has a good windage system too. I'm making a micrometer sight setting tool. This will allow settings of 1/2 moa or less if desired (my eyes can't do any better than that).

Stay with loads that were made for trapdoors. Do NOT, repeat DO NOT put hot loads in it with smokeless powder. Any 70 gr black powder load will get the job done. This also applies to new manufactured trapdoors. They just ain't made for hot loads.

[StrawHat]

tangsight,

I, for one, would love to see some photos of your rifle.

Any idea who did the work?

And welcome to the forum.

[tangsight]

Thanks to everyone so far for their input.

The type of shooting I do is plinking, mostly off a bench, at a club range whose berms are 300 meters distant. So that would be about the furthest away I would usually get. I might have the opportunity to go as far as 500 meters someday. I like shooting at the silhouettes, and I think I would get a bang (pun intended) out of hitting a gong and waiting for the report.

To Gussy, Not to worry, I'm aware that the trapdoor action is a weak one, and I'll be careful. The loads I use are FFg Goex behind a 500 grain Lyman 457125 bullet, so I can't get anything over about 60 grains in the case, even compressing it a little. I think that's probably a lighter load than was used in the old days.

To KCSO, your reply gave me an epiphany! I realized that I had been aware that the MVA system uses a Pope rail, and that the scope has a battery stop to limit the travel of the tube to the rear under recoil. You have to reset the tube to the battery stop after every shot. What I had NOT deduced was that if I mount the rear mount far enough forward, I can slide the scope forward, out of the way of the trap door, to load. That will be the avenue I will pursue

To Strawhat, a man named McDaniel built the rifle for my dad's brother-in-law, who gave it to my Dad, who willed it to me. The top flat of the barrel is signed in stamped letters: "D.McDaniel Round Rock Texas". I think he's still alive, but he would be rather old now. I'm not the most computer literate person in the world, but I'll try to get a photo posted.

[Nueces]

That would be Dennis McDaniel, who used to be well known in central Texas for fine work on muzzleloaders. He's still around, but I haven't run into him for a while.

Sounds like a fine piece. I'd sure like to see photos of that rifle, too.

Mark

[tangsight]

Mark, the story I get from my uncle is that Mr McDaniel built the trapdoor and promptly went to a muzzleloading shoot with it, identifying it only as a Hawken when asked (and of course the story goes that the shoot officials said "Oh, okay then"). He was able to get off several rounds before they knew what was up. It's well camouflaged for all that, because despite the fact that it is a legitimate breech loader, it comes equipped with a wooden ramrod under the barrel.

I'm working on the photos. Have patience with and mercy on an eighteenth century man in the twenty-first.

[Nueces]

Snicker...

I recall him as having a fine sense of humor.

Mark

[jhrosier]

Tangsight,

If you decide to go with iron sights, you migh be able to cobble up something like this for the front.

http://images32.fotki.com/v1060/photos/5/590147/2786028/new_front_sight-vi.jpg

Jack

[georgewxxx]

I've shot with both these sights added to my 1866, 1868, & 1870 Springfield's that lack windage and the front sights that are crude stumps at best. The rear sight does "NOT" require any rrilling or cutting to add to the rifle. All you need do is take out the action screws and slide this plate up to the left hand side of the stock. It's a much modified 144 Mossberg .22 target sight. Now I have both some windage & elevation. You may need to offset the hammer with a couple washers to get enough windage. A sniper front sight needed some tape as a shim wrapped around the barrel because the outside diameter of my barrel was too small. I maxed out on elevation shooting 200 yds in a local trapdoor shoot. If we shot any farther I'd have to find a longer staff somewhere. ...Geo

[tangsight]

Thanks very much to everyone who has helped with my research for a telescopic sight for the Gemmer Hawken. I have uploaded some photos to my album for all to see. How to attach them to this post still has me defeated. If anyone can put the how to in laymen's terms, I'd be delighted to put them here.

For the info of all, I have been talking to the Montana Vintage Arms people about their six power scopes, and I am leaning toward either the 23 or 28 inch length. The barrel of the Hawken is 28 3/4" overall. They want to know dimensions so they can tell me if they need to extend the Pope rail back further than normal, in order for me to be able to slide the sight far enough forward to get out of the way of the open trap door, and still be held vertical in the mounts by the rail.

There is also, I'm told, another constraint, and that is that there is a minimum distance required between front and rear sight mounts, which is different depending on the length of the sight purchased. I believe the 28 inch long tube requires the greater distance. It looks to me like the location of the front mount is determined by where you put your eye. Eye relief is about two inches, so depending on where your eye is, you add two inches and that is where the rear of the scope tube is when the battery stop abuts the front sight mount. That would be the position of the sight when you are shooting. The rear mounts would have to be installed far enough forward on the barrel to allow the tube to slide out of the way of that open door, and if that distance places the rear mount too close to the front mount, then that scope is not mountable on this rifle. If I'm reading the brochure correctly, the 23 inch long sight can have a minimum of seven inches between front and rear sight mounts, which would be workable. I think. A lot depends of what the Montana people tell me about the dimensions at the rear of the scope, because, even when the tube is pushed as far forward as it can be, there will still be some of it behind the rear mount, which might be struck by the open door (see the picture of the action with the door open). Anyway, more later.

[tangsight]

So... I put the photos of the rifle in the album like everyone asks, and they seem to fall off the face of the earth. Was it not what it was supposed to be or something? Where did everyone go?

[StrawHat]

So... I put the photos of the rifle in the album like everyone asks, and they seem to fall off the face of the earth. Was it not what it was supposed to be or something? Where did everyone go?


Okay, how do I get to your album?

[tangsight]

Strawhat, near the top of the page there is a gray bar. Click on "all albums" Mine is the one which is titled "Trapdoor Springfield Gemmer Hawken". It's a public area, everyone should be able to see.

[StrawHat]

Thanks, never knew that option was available.

Nice looking rifle, I really like the base of the front sight!

I have used coins for the blades of my sights, never thought about using it as a base.

I have a Rolling Block I intend to remodel in the style of Gemmer or Gove but there are a few project ahead of that one.

Currently working on refinishing a 50-70 trapdoor I cobbled together. With luck it should turn out as well finished as your Dad's piece.

And thanks again for the advice about the album section. Learn something new everyday!