Recommendation for a long range BPCR

[Big Mak]

I currently own two, in 38-55 and .45-70 (Trapdoor / Win 94)

If you were going to start practicing 2 years in advance for a competition, say...Matthew Quigley match, and reloaded your own, which caliber (45-70, 45-90, 45-110, 50-70, etc) and which specific rifle would you purchase if money were no object? (Okay, well, I do have a limit of about $3,000, so I guess some old Sharps would be out of the question)

I've been eyeing Pedi's for over a year now, but end up back on Rock Island Auction looking at original Sharps! Driving me nuts!

I don't mean to open the can of proverbial worms here, I just want YOUR opinion, and not stomp on someone else's opinion. Thanks!

[Randy Bohannon]

45-70 Shiloh Sharps,30" barrel, pistol grip,MVA soule long range sight, no regrets.

[Don McDowell]

Shiloh rough rider, 45-70. Unless you want to do something really different from the rest of the crowd and do that rifle in 44-77.

[sharps4590]

I don't think you'll open a can of worms or stomp on anyone's opinion, Mak. It's a more than fair question and you know what they say about opinions.

I'm partial to Shiloh's but Lord knows there's a lot of good rifles out there today that will meet your requirements. From affordable to "oh my goodness!!" Same with cartridges once you figger 'em out. For 13 years I shot a Shiloh Long Range Express in 45-70 and it was more than satisfactory. I don't know about the Quigley but seems I remember that rifle not quite making the NRA weight limit for BPCR if that matters. Could also be I'm dreaming that.

I have a Montana Rough Rider in 45-90, hence my handle. I really like it for a hunting rifle but it never quite "tripped my trigger" for LR shooting....there's that opinion thing...lol. My current long range set up is a Shiloh #1 Sporter in 40-70 Sharps Straight and I am very enamored of the cartridge and rifle. The old 40-82 WCF in an 1886 Win. is the first 40 that captured my affection and I like the 40-70 SS even better. Rear sight is an MVA but not a Soule, wish it was. Front sight is also MVA, spirit level, interchangeable aperture and windage adjustable. It is one of the 3 most accurate rifles I have ever owned.

Don mentioned the 44-77, a really cool old cartridge. I've never played with one but it is very close to the 11.15 X 60R Mauser cartridge, aka, 43 Mauser. I have around 20 years experience with that cartridge and it's a good one so the 44-77 should be also. Heck, the 44-77 was good 135 years ago and there's no reason it should have changed.

As far as an original, usable Sharps....talk about cool factor but that jumps entirely out of my league!!!!!

[Bent Ramrod]

If your Trapdoor has the Buffington sight, and a decent bore, you ought to be able to place in the upper 50 percentile at the Quigley, if you can shoot it. A good Trapdoor gives away very little to a modern BPCR, and it's mostly in the area of sight repeatability.

The Buffalo is the longest range target, at 805 yards. A .45-70 will reach out there with no trouble.

Funny you should mention $3000 as your upper limit. My half-around, semi-fancy standard heavy, pack-hardened Shiloh #1 cost almost exactly that after shipping, Fed&State excise taxes and FFL fee was added. Target sights, scope and mounts were extra, of course. Worth every penny, though; I'm just glad I'm not a Boating enthusiast.

If you're coming to the Quigley from Washington State, stop in Big Timber on your way to Forsyth, and visit the Shiloh and C. Sharps factories. You'll have a much better idea of what you "need" after that. (Heh-heh!) :evil: That's how I was inveigled into buying mine.

[BigAl52]

Shiloh Sharps Long Range express 45-100 MVA Buffalo Soule rear sight and MVA windage adjustable front sight. Had a lot of fun with it. Al

[Gunlaker]

A pistol gripped Shiloh with a shotgun buttplate with a heavy barrel. I'd pick .45-70 or .45-90.

Chris.

[Lead pot]

A Shiloh LRE or the Roughrider in the .45-90 caliber with a 30" barrel.
The .45-70 is a great cartridge but in time when you start shooting these gong shoots or the long range paper matches you will start loading the .45-70 like a .45-90. The .45-90 is more then enough for this type of game.
The Shiloh has a very high resale value if you ever need to sell it. It outsells just about everything on the used market.

I always have favored the 74 Sharps and I have several in different calibers, but another rifle to check out and that is the CPA 44-1/2.
The CPA 44-1/2 Stevens action has a lot of features I personally like better then the 74 Sharps action. The breach block is the best feture I like over the 74 Sharps. It will cam a cartridge in if the throat gets fouled where the 74 Sharps will not close the breach if the cartridge is not fully seated. Big plus when things heat up and the fouling control falls off. The center hammer is a plus on the CPA. Fully adjustable for different primer conditions. Say you want to use a soft pistol primer you can adjust the hammer strike so you don't pearce the primer.
You can change the barrels at the range if you have a second or more barrels for it of different calibers. Plus they are fine shooters.
I now have three CPA's and one more caliber in the works.
There are a lot of good options out there now days for this type of shooting.
Kurt

[northmn]

When one sets a price like $3000, how much does a good pair of sights cost?? Saying that because I am betting they are more important than the rifle in some ways.

DEP

[Lead pot]

Without good sights the best rifle is worthless.

[country gent]

If possible attend a few local matches and talk to competitors. You may get to handle some of the different ones and see them in use. The 40 caliber cartridges are probably about the min for true long range matches. 44s are getting some attention and developing a following. the 45s are established with good data and information available for them. I would look at some of the center hammer rifles also as lock time is better. ( High Walls, CPA Stevens 44 1/2, Hepburns). The pedersolis are good rifles not quite the fit and finish of the others and not as many choices or options available. The CPA C Sharps and Shiloh have a lot of options when you order one. You can get length of pull, triggers, barrel length, weight, desired chamber throat combo, ect ect. If you stay away from embelishments you can come pretty close to your budget for this project. The drawback to the above is the build time of 8 weeks+ for the rifle. Pedersolis if you find the one you want you can buy it right then and there no real wait. I think starting out with a 45-70 and a 500 grn - 535 grn bullet and a good load wont leave you wanting for much.

[Gunlaker]

When one sets a price like $3000, how much does a good pair of sights cost?? Saying that because I am betting they are more important than the rifle in some ways.

DEP

Check out the MVA web site and have a look at their long range buffalo soule, and a low profile front sight with spirit level. Not cheap but good sights really help. Some like the other brands, but I've tried a bunch of them and won't ever switch from MVA, with one small exception. I really like the Distant Thunder front sights.

Kurt, with regards to the CPA, I think Gail at CPA is a fantastic person to deal with. None better except maybe the people at Shiloh. I've got two of their rifles. They are very accurate, but are the most finicky rifles I've ever owned. It's rare that I can get through a days shooting without having to tighten up some screws somewhere on the things. Mine just seem to shake loose. Even with tiny .38-55 cartridges. But they are very accurate once you get them figured out.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

When one sets a price like $3000, how much does a good pair of sights cost?? Saying that because I am betting they are more important than the rifle in some ways.

DEP

If you were to order a Shiloh with all standard features, and have them install the MVA sights, the price tag will fall under the 3000$ mark, altho I would send them a Baldwin front sight to install on the rifle.

[Lead pot]

Chris.

Yes I have one rifle that had a screw problem that were on the loose side. They where on the forearm only Loctite fixed that problem.
I think the screw problem comes form the manufacturer. Someplace up in Canada makes their screws and I wonder if it might be a problem changing from the metric setup to inches. I had gail send replacement screws and some where tight and some fit loose.
Hard to say.

[Gunlaker]

That's interesting to hear Kurt. For me it's mostly the hammer screw and barrel screw that have come loose. I am torquing the barrel ones down tighter now. I also almost never swap out the barrels anymore.

Chris.

[country gent]

I check the locator screw before every match on my CPA as it has loosened up on me in the past. Atleast with the lossening and tightening back up it wont rust tight in place LOL. I believe its more barrel harmonics loosening it than anything. Same with the forend screws. Vibrations do strange things to screws and threads.

[Chill Wills]

For me, It would be very hard to top a Winchester Highwall in 45cal with a 16 twist or 17 twist. Stock lop correct for me. 15 inches. Baldwin rear sight and MVA Winchester windage front. Maybe a Distant Thunder front but I do not own one so I have no first hand knowledge. Do they have wind in them?
It could be a 70 or a 90, that part is the least important. I've used both extensively and won with both.

The biggest thing is to have an easy to use action that has some cam-in ability and correct fitting stock. Many good actions types out there but the highwall is very hard to beat for function and ease of use when you spend the day rolling around shooting on your belly.

And, you really need to be friends with your rifle. It needs to feel good when you shoot it. You can't do your best while fighting your rifle.

[Don McDowell]

Well ok then,, now that we've veered away from the Sharps,,, I would also vote for a C Sharps 85, add the single set trigger, and chambered in either the 44-70 or 44-90 st.

[bigbore52]

Among other cases such as the 45/70 (which will do the job perfectly well) I also use the 1886 Ped. Sharps 45/120 Quig model for long range and find either the Goodwin and the Soule sights best but that depends on distance. So not only what rifle you chose but the sights are just as important IMHO

few points to consider ..

1, you will need to clean your bore often using BP, some rifle actions are easier but some 'after market' sights will make that impossible (from breech end) - I know a few ranges won't allow access to clean from the muzzle during shoots
2, if you use the taller say 1000 yard sights, then doubtful you will be able to adjust them lower than 200 without removing the fitted rear barrel sight on some rifles just to see the front sight - that can prove difficult for hunting or shorter distance etc...so it may mean a rifle set for one purpose only...which seems what you are after anyway from your post
3, load development is essential because most of those cals you mention are easily capable along with others but unless it's enjoyable for you to use - you'll quickly lose interest and it will become a safe queen
4, visit some shoots, ask questions and see for yourself what people use, most will let you have a go of theirs once you chat....well, unless they use original Sharps.....best check their facial hair first before you ask...., just in case :D
5, don't expect to neuter gnats first up at 1000 yards....it will take time - but then that's the fun bit.....

Then when you are all set up and running, tell us what you get with some photos please but goods shootin' whatever you decide.......Lee

[Big Mak]

If your Trapdoor has the Buffington sight, and a decent bore, you ought to be able to place in the upper 50 percentile at the Quigley, if you can shoot it. A good Trapdoor gives away very little to a modern BPCR, and it's mostly in the area of sight repeatability.

The Buffalo is the longest range target, at 805 yards. A .45-70 will reach out there with no trouble.

Funny you should mention $3000 as your upper limit. My half-around, semi-fancy standard heavy, pack-hardened Shiloh #1 cost almost exactly that after shipping, Fed&State excise taxes and FFL fee was added. Target sights, scope and mounts were extra, of course. Worth every penny, though; I'm just glad I'm not a Boating enthusiast.

If you're coming to the Quigley from Washington State, stop in Big Timber on your way to Forsyth, and visit the Shiloh and C. Sharps factories. You'll have a much better idea of what you "need" after that. (Heh-heh!) :evil: That's how I was inveigled into buying mine.

Oh wow! Very cool! Thanks for the heads up!
Wife said "Not this year" for the MQ match, we're going to be really busy (Fishing in MN, Oahu, then Colorado to bring our son to his freshman year at Colorado Mesa)
We may stop at Big Timber on the way back. We're taking the "Long way" home via Custer battle field, etc.

[Big Mak]

Bigbore:
1, you will need to clean your bore often using BP, some rifle actions are easier but some 'after market' sights will make that impossible (from breech end) - I know a few ranges won't allow access to clean from the muzzle during shoots
Yep, I do that now, about every 10 shots. I'm fortunate to have a pristine bore in my lightly used trapdoor.
2, if you use the taller say 1000 yard sights, then doubtful you will be able to adjust them lower than 200 without removing the fitted rear barrel sight on some rifles just to see the front sight - that can prove difficult for hunting or shorter distance etc...so it may mean a rifle set for one purpose only...which seems what you are after anyway from your post
I have a set of 4 custom trapdoor front sights that a gunsmith/machinst buddy made me, made from titanium and using an EDM machine. You can PM me if you have a TD and are interested ($35 for set of 4) This really improved my long distance accuracy with the buffington!
3, load development is essential because most of those cals you mention are easily capable along with others but unless it's enjoyable for you to use - you'll quickly lose interest and it will become a safe queen
With the help of member Sharps45-90 (Member here and another forum), I've developed some great accurate loads in both 405 and 525 gr boolits!
4, visit some shoots, ask questions and see for yourself what people use, most will let you have a go of theirs once you chat....well, unless they use original Sharps.....best check their facial hair first before you ask...., just in case :grin:
Tough to find any of these in WA state that are BPCR :(
5, don't expect to neuter gnats first up at 1000 yards....it will take time - but then that's the fun bit.....
Can't wait! I may be traveling with my TD this summer and practice at my brother's ranch in Ennis, MT!

[Gunlaker]

There are some long range shoots at the Rattlesnake Mountain facility in Washington state. Last year they held a long range state match in May I believe. From what I have heard, this year will also include a midrange match.

I have not shot there myself, but I should as it's much closer to my home than any of the other matches I go to.

Chris.

[bigted]

Chris ... naa dont bother with them close shoots ... if ya dont travel 1000 miles, ya will have no chance of even placing.

[sharps4590]

You will enjoy Custer. I spent an entire day there and it wasn't enough but, I'm kinda geeky like that. While you're in the vicinity the Battle of the Rosebud with General Crook isn't far SE of there, maybe an hour?. Then there's all the 1868 fights, Fort Fetterman, The Wagon Box, The Hayfield, Battle of Tongue River and I think a couple others on the old Bozeman Trail. Shame you aren't going to be further south in Wyoming. Fort Laramie is worth the time also and a little NE of there is the Museum of the Fur Trade right outside Chadron, Nebraska then over in Pinedale is the Museum of the Mountain Man....and I better shut up, I love that stuff!!!!

From the pictures I've seen of Mak's Trapdoor I'd sure like to put eyes and hands on it.

[Big Mak]

Thanks Sharps, I'm adding some of these to my itinerary.

[KCSO]

Even the military in 1876 acknowledged that the trapdoor was not as accurate as a Sharps or Remington as the lighter barrel caused vertical dispersion. The trapdoor will get you 1/2 way. To get to the top I would either get a Remington or Sharps with a Badger barrel or a Shiloh. The calibre would have to be either 45-70 or 45-90 depending on your tolerance for recoil. The calibre choice is mostly due to a lot of the accuracy work being done already saving you some experiment. The sights will be very important and MVA with a Hadley eye cup for various lighting conditions would be the best. If you PM me I can send you pictures and data from the current Quigley winner and a couple others.

After that Range time!!!! You wil need to shoot a nd shoot and shoot for load development and trigger time. Keep records of each outing weather temp wind ect. Oh and most important a GOOD spotter.

[Big Mak]

KCSO,
Range time is 2 times a week, over 3 years now with my trapdoor. :) Only 100 and 200 yards though....
I've got my BP loads mastered now.
I keep records on a crono that records all of the various loads and temperature. No wind yet as our range sits in a deep mountain valley. So there is THAT, that I need to find a practice place for wind.

Still looking for a good spotter.

Do you have a recommendation of a good spotter's "Cadence" in reporting? I'm thinking of training the wife. (She's a shooter, but pistols/revolvers, not rifles)

Is it as simple as reporting as a spotter "Low left" with silhouette plinking or more than that?

[Don McDowell]

A good spotter will let you know the wind/mirage conditions, so you can make adjustment before you pull the trigger

[Gunlaker]

The best way to learn spotting is to watch others who are experienced, and practice a lot. In silhouette things can be interesting when it comes to misses. It's easy to believe that the miss happened in a different location than it did.

You definitely want to get into the idea of communicating in minutes of angle, and use the "o'clock" system. Using inches, or vague terms like "a little bit low", or "way high" is a way to drive a shooter crazy :-)

Chris.

[Big Mak]

The best way to learn spotting is to watch others who are experienced, and practice a lot. In silhouette things can be interesting when it comes to misses. It's easy to believe that the miss happened in a different location than it did.

You definitely want to get into the idea of communicating in minutes of angle, and use the "o'clock" system. Using inches, or vague terms like "a little bit low", or "way high" is a way to drive a shooter crazy :-)

Chris.
Boy I got a lot to learn. I guess I'll have to tag along with a competitor and learn. Anyone want to be a mentor? :) I'll be really good beer for the evenings! :)

[Lead pot]

If it's a real good heavy dark German Beer I just might make the 2000 trip to Washington to shoot with you :D

[country gent]

Mirage can be a very useful tool with reading wind also. Set up range flags and your spotting scope in the back yard. and watch the changes in the flags and mirage and see how they coincide.

[Gunlaker]

Country Gent it sounds like you have a bigger yard than me :-). That is a good idea. I like mirage and feel lost if there is none present.

Chris.

[Bent Ramrod]

You can buy or make spotting boards with pictures of your targets in a 2-MOA grid. Your spotter sees the dust puff, or hit, and puts a push pin or magnet on the picture in the same spot and shows it to you. They have them for Silhouettes and for Quigley targets.

Somebody (is it Jerry Van Wey?) makes a single set trigger for the Trapdoor. This would help the shooting, but might cut you out of the Trapdoor Class, if the match has one. Somebody else sells a Trapdoor tumbler fitted with a set screw for sear engagement. A friend put one on his rifle and it really helped. That, (I would think), would still keep you in the Trapdoor Class in a competition.

The first time I actually shot the Quigley (my first visit was rained out) there was a guy with a Trapdoor who shot the whole thing offhand, using the Buffington sight. He got the same score as me: 21 hits, and I shot five of the six targets sitting off cross sticks.

[Big Mak]

Thanks Bent. Yes, the 12 lb trigger pull takes some getting used to on the original trapdoors! I won't touch this rifle though, it's in pristine shape and not a parts gun. The previous owner did a bluing job to it thus reducing its value but the bore is pristine. I want to leave it as it thus the reason for asking about a modern Sharps.
All photos--> https://sportsdad60.smugmug.com/1873-Springfield-Trapdoor-45/n-gxR9F/

https://photos.smugmug.com/1873-Springfield-Trapdoor-45/n-gxR9F/i-w2jxDLN/0/L/i-w2jxDLN-L.jpghttps://photos.smugmug.com/1873-Springfield-Trapdoor-45/n-gxR9F/i-w2jxDLN/0/L/i-w2jxDLN-L.jpg