Need advice loading .45-70

[iplaywithnoshoes]

I read through a few threads here yesterday and discovered that my once loved (and published) 13.7gr Unique load is unsuitable for .45-70 due to overwhelming reports of gradually rung chambers. In all large straight wall cases in fact, fast burning pistol powders are no good for chamber longevity due to hammering pressure waves at the bullet base due high compressibility in the air space.

Long story short, it looks like my options are limited to bulky smokeless powders (3031, Trail Boss, Varget), duplexing ball powder, and Black Powder/Muzzleloader Propellants. The third however seems to have the best accuracy potential and lowest SD so I have a few questions:

I am looking strongly at BH209, I happen to have some. What kind of loading practices will differ from regular Black Powder? What wads or compression have any of you used? Do I just fill the case and compress or follow the load data? The powder is unbelievably expensive but I fear ruining my new barrel with just the slightest bit of residue left over from Black Powder or Pyrodex. I'm open to using them but I need a fail safe cleaning method since I'm in a fairly humid environment in storage.

I think that's it. Rant was from some initial frustration learning about reloading my favorite cartridge.

shoe

[aspangler]

I load 25 grains of 2400 without wads or fillers and have had zero evidence of anything wrong. After over a 1k of 405 lead boolits down the barrell, the chamber and barrel still look new. As for SD mine is 6. Can't get much better than that. Don't worry about "rung" chambers unless you are putting a wad over the powder and leavin a space between that and the base of the bullet. Just my 2 cents.

[Skipper]

+1 on aspangler's advice. I've been shooting 12 grains of Unique for 41 years now. No damage.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Most (including myself) advise against pistol powder in the 45-70 because of how easy it would be to double charge the case. My go to smokeless powder is RX7 (Reloader 7). For Black powder I have only ever tried Goex 2fg.


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[NSB]

Didn't say where you read it, but you'll find anything on the internet if you look. The fact that you read it somewhere simply doesn't make it so. I don't know anyone who ringed a chamber on a 45-70 shooting Unique and I do know of a lot of people shooting it. However, it's your gun so do as you please. For me, Unique, 2400, and a few others are still on my loading list. I've owned several 45-70s and never had a problem. Whoever wrote that might have been stuffing fillers (the wrong kind of fillers) in with the powder and blamed his problems on the powder.

[country gent]

I don't do much with BH209 or the other substitutes. In 45-70 2F or 1 1/2F of Olde Ensford or Swiss brand powders and perform very well in my rifles. My 45-70 load of 67 grns 1 1/2 old ensford with the 535 postel gives right around 1200 fps, and a extreme spread of 12 fps. Its more than capable of hitting rams at 500yds all day long. Start with the granulation of Black Powder at the base of the bullet with a .060 wad. No air space. and test it. If possible chronograph and watch extreme spreads and standard deviations. Make note of velocity. Work up in 3 grns increments adding powder and compression to the load. The ES and Sd numbers will slowly drop becoming more consistant and accuracy should improve as you go. When you get to the accuracy level velocity level you want then test at the mid point. After finding the basic load then test primers, primer wads, alloys, and seating depths.

[MT Chambers]

My advice would be to try some good black powder such as Swiss 1 1/2fg, cleaning is no problem, and accuracy should be good, either way you will have to clean your gun and your empty brass.

[hpbear101]

Several 45-70 1886 Winchester's in the family that my dad purchased back in the 50's and 60's, probably 90% of the loads fired through them are cast bullets with 2400 and no issues at all. As mentioned the only downside is the potential for a double charge.

[Skipper]

As mentioned the only downside is the potential for a double charge.

All the more reason to keep our heads out of our a** while reloading.

[iplaywithnoshoes]

I load 25 grains of 2400 without wads or fillers and have had zero evidence of anything wrong. After over a 1k of 405 lead boolits down the barrell, the chamber and barrel still look new. As for SD mine is 6. Can't get much better than that. Don't worry about "rung" chambers unless you are putting a wad over the powder and leavin a space between that and the base of the bullet. Just my 2 cents.


Most (including myself) advise against pistol powder in the 45-70 because of how easy it would be to double charge the case. My go to smokeless powder is RX7 (Reloader 7). For Black powder I have only ever tried Goex 2fg.


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Didn't say where you read it, but you'll find anything on the internet if you look. The fact that you read it somewhere simply doesn't make it so. I don't know anyone who ringed a chamber on a 45-70 shooting Unique and I do know of a lot of people shooting it. However, it's your gun so do as you please. For me, Unique, 2400, and a few others are still on my loading list. I've owned several 45-70s and never had a problem. Whoever wrote that might have been stuffing fillers (the wrong kind of fillers) in with the powder and blamed his problems on the powder.


Several 45-70 1886 Winchester's in the family that my dad purchased back in the 50's and 60's, probably 90% of the loads fired through them are cast bullets with 2400 and no issues at all. As mentioned the only downside is the potential for a double charge.


All the more reason to keep our heads out of our a** while reloading.[/COLOR]

Yes, the double charge scenario is real. I weigh all of my final cartridges and since I know that they don't vary by more than 5gr. with fouling, and cast weight tolerances; it's easy to spot one that has been overcharged. I also don't use any filler since it exacerbates the leading problem and causes lead rings, especially with heavier bullets.

[iplaywithnoshoes]

There have been several threads here detailing large straight wall cases with pistol burn rate powders causing ringing. It's also possible that I started to see these 'machine marks' on my cases after awhile with a different .45-70 barrel.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?4911-Chamber-Ringing

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/archive/index.php/t-27160.html

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/archive/index.php/t-1514.html

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/archive/index.php/t-135349.html

I seem to be getting just as much evidence of the contrary though. Doesn't anyone actually measure the air space with the wad?

shoe

[Big Mak]

I put my method into a short video for BP 45-70.
I personally like the Montana Compression die, and I compress about .150, using a vegetable wad. When the bullet is seated, it adds about .025 more compression.
The volume amount is dependent upon the bullet type and powder type.

Here is the vid, I've since improved my accuracy with a deeper seated bullet and better crimp.

https://vimeo.com/181567323

[iplaywithnoshoes]

I'm feeling a little better about the smokeless loads right now. I bought some wads and a wad punch and may attempt some BH209 loads before going full black. How thick of a veggie wad are you using Big Mak?


I was only able to find .125" felt wads from Track of the Wolf available. Does that severely limit the compression and charge I can stuff in the case with say a typical 405gr bullet?

shoe

[Big Mak]

.060.
I've used .030 before.
I can't speak for .125, haven't used them.

[EDG]

Unique might ring the chamber of a barely steel (silly putty metal) barrel in an ancient original Springfield or similar. You can do the math but I have burned up 2 lbs of Unique (loaded with ~ 13 grains) and 300 grain bullets in a variety of modern 45-70s and so far I have not seen any ringed chambers.
If Unique rings chambers, Lyman is out of line for listing such loads for more than 50 years.

[Outpost75]

Using fast-burning powders is not what rings chambers.

USING WADS! is what rings chambers!!!!!!~

[Big Mak]

Using fast-burning powders is not what rings chambers.

USING WADS! is what rings chambers!!!!!!~
You mean using wads with smokeless powder I assume? Because everyone I know uses a wad with BP to prevent bullet base deformation.
I do not use wads with smokelss.

[Outpost75]

You mean using wads with smokeless powder I assume? Because everyone I know uses a wad with BP to prevent bullet base deformation.
I do not use wads with smokelss.

Correct.

[Wayne Smith]

Actually, using wads with airspace is what rings chambers - it is the air compression that does it, and I'd not bet it wouldn't happen with BP as well.
BP wad is carefully used without airspace.

[Lead pot]

Giving someone information loading smokeless powder in a cartridge that might be used in a old weak rifle actions that are still out there is a Lawyers dream building his retirement no matter how good your intentions are trying to help him. I personally have seen three rifles destroyed and two shooters hauled off in a meat wagon with serious hand injuries. One was standing off to my right 15 feet.
Someone asking what to use for a load must not have much experience loading these old rounds or have not read the warnings in loading manuals. Or someone not in a discussion reads the advice given and gets hurt he will say hey Joe Blow said it was his load he used for many years. Yes I have heard this said in a discussion in camp, "I been using this load for many years" and the damage happen the very next day.
Be careful.
Also keep in mind. The potential of a light load using the wrong powder is just as dangerous as a over load.

[M-Tecs]

I have fired around 56,000 rounds of 45/70 loaded with 10 grains of Unique under a 385 grain cast in various TD's. Both original, H&R reproduction and rebarreled original actions. On the rebarreled action I have over 20,000 through it. Zero hint of a chamber ringing. A small percentage of those had heavier bullets and more Unique.

I do not use a wad. Wad related chamber ringing was an issue in the late 60's when I started and I have limited experience with fillers.

If Unique and chamber ringing is a problem I would think that I have seen some evidence of it in the 80 pounds or so I have put through TD's

Cleaning black powder is very easy and not as time sensitive as most would believe.

Pyrodex left or not cleaned properly has destroyed a very large number of firearms.

I got a deal on 5 pound of Blackhorn 209. Only used it in inlines.

http://www.blackhorn209.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/b209blackpowdercartridgedata.pdf

http://www.blackhorn209.com/faqs/

[Big Mak]

Agree with you Lead Pot, on "caution, proceed at own risk", but I have yet to find a case or a judicial precedent in regards to a successful lawsuit involving two paries, one giving advice to the other....on the internets... to the extent of Party A sueing Party B for an injury regarding a suggested load. If you have a successful case lawsuit that is public you can share, please do.

It goes without saying, "proceed at your own risk" when it comes to internet reloaders. The more books for cross reference, the better!

[Lead pot]

Winning a case is just as expensive maybe more so then loosing it.
It's not worth it. To many when they load they push the envelope.

[rfd]

... but I fear ruining my new barrel with just the slightest bit of residue left over from Black Powder or Pyrodex. I'm open to using them but I need a fail safe cleaning method since I'm in a fairly humid environment in storage. ...


honestly, fear not for using REAL black powder.

and NOT that fake sub powder, either.

most of us believe REAL black powder to be "better" than smokeless ... no, i'll claim it *IS* better than smokeless, particularly better in yer .45-70 rifle. bp clean up is easier than one thinks for both the gun and brass, because thinking and doing are two entirely diff'rent things. i shot smokeless (unique, trail boss, 4759, 5744) in my .45-70's for more than a year, always concerned about the "nastiness" of REAL black powder and thus avoiding it like the plague. all totally and completely unfounded. ask me why.

[Lead pot]

A black powder rifle cleans up faster then one shot with smokeless and jacketed bullets by a long way.
All of my powder rifles get shot a lot some more then others and they sit for a long time between uses. In the past my average powder consumption was between 4 and 5 cases a year except for the last 2 1/2 years I developed some medical problems and last 2 years I just shot a little over two cases and I have yet to see any of my rifles with rust from using black powder. When I clean them I use just wet patches maybe a little dish soap in a bottle of water and 3-4 wet patches and a few dry patches the last patch cones out just as white as it went in. Oil it and wipe it down with a oily rag and your good to go the next time you use it. Just run a drp patch down the barrel to dry out the oil and shoot.
Now Pyrodex is a little different story. When you get done shooting clean it good. You can use the same stuff I use but make sure the bore is dry and use a good oil. I will suggest you clean it again the next day even if it was not used. I have a friend that used that sub powder and he cleaned his rifle when I was cleaning mine and he did a good job from what the patches looked like. We shot again the next weekend and when he pushed a dry patch through the bore to clean out the oil that patch was brown. I asked him did you clean that rifle since you shot it? and he said you saw me clean it last weekend..........he never shot that powder again.

[Gunlaker]

Like LeadPot says, cleaning a black powder firearm is very easy. The easiest is my rifles that I shoot paper patched bullets in. It just takes 2 or 3 patches with Butches Black Powder Bore Shine, and a couple of dry ones. Then a little bit of Eezox to protect the bore and it goes into the safe.

For rifles that shoot unpatched bullets, the only difference is that I run some very tight dry patches through the bore to remove any flecks of lead that may hide BP fouling. As long as you get the fouling out you will be fine.

Many of us shoot very expensive match rifles with black powder all the time without ruining barrels. I live in a place where humidity is reasonably high. I do have a dehumidifier in my gun room to keep it at or under 50%.

If you are worried about it, take the rifle back out of the safe the next day and run a few patches through it again to see if you missed anything.

My BP rifles are a lot easier to deal with than my .308.

Chris.

[johnhenry57]

Going back to the first paragraph of this thread I read that using pistol powders in straight walled large caliber ammo was bad mojo. So.... correct me if I am wrong but isn't a 45-70 a tapered wall. As such I was lead to believe that is the reason there are no carbide dies and thus we lube the case during the reloading process.
I know I'll regret posting this :killingpc

[iplaywithnoshoes]

Hey guys and gals,

Thank you again for your advice and experience in this. I will continue to use Unique in economic loading for .45-70, perhaps testing it extensively against my current convenient load of Trail Boss. I get a better feeling on cleaning with real BP as well. The consensus seems to suggest more fouling but soft enough to be wiped with fewer patches than with smokeless powder, albeit with wiping in between shots. I have another issue I need resolved as well:


All of the bullets I have available are of rather hard alloys (BHN 15-18). Their sizes are between .458 and .459. My bore at around .458. Does this mean that I have no bullets suitable for black powder/Blackhorn 209? I know that you want a softer alloy and slightly undersized by a few thousandths to allow for some obturation into the grooves. Will bullets of greater hardness and oversized work or should I expect increased leading?

[johnhenry57]

My favorite load is 13 grs of Trailboss under a 405 RNFP. Mv 1050

[iplaywithnoshoes]

My favorite load is 13 grs of Trailboss under a 405 RNFP. Mv 1050
Yes, my load is quite close to that as well. It fire forms the case nicely and bumps the harder bullets a bit. 12.5 probably puts me at about 980.

[Toymaker]

190133 190134 If these loads seem too stiff for you then reduce the charge to around 23 grains. Since 4759 has been discontinued I've found that Accurate 5744, same weight, gives identical performance.

[Sigmanz]

I load Blackhorn 209 with a .030 wad per load data under a lee 405 ( both flat base and hollow base ). It'll have some compression. Works great for me in several 45-70's.

[Grapeshot]

"I fear ruining my new barrel with just the slightest bit of residue left over from Black Powder or Pyrodex. "

If you are using a single shot rifle like the sharps or a Rolling Block just use HOT soapy water to clean the barrel with. Spray WD40 after you dry the barrel with clean patches and run several more clean dry patches through the bore and lube with Ballistol or a good Gun Lube or CLP. I've done that for years and haven't had a problem with rust or corrosion.

In a repeater like the M1876 or M1887, I put a fired case back in the chamber and close the lever and pour a water/Ballistol mix down the tube and wait ten minutes, drain and run dry patches down the bore a few times, remove the cartridge case and spray the WD40 in the chamber end down the barrel and let it sit on a folded towel, muzzle down until it drains out, then hit the bore with a few more dry patches and the CLP or Ballistol. Works like a charm.

[rfd]

to each their own - i have found within 58 years of trad side-lock muzzleloader loading/shooting/cleaning that ol' plain tepid tap water is all that's needed if the barrel and lock have been well cared for from the get-go. no heat and no soap. bp residue is readily dissolved with only plain water. always has, always will, since its invention a half millennium ago. for both barrel and removed lock, patch dry after water cleaning, then patch with a bit of oil. done ... and well cared for. all my guns have bright, clean barrels. always have. always will. ymmv.

[therealhitman]

I shot smokeless (unique, trail boss, 4759, 5744) in my .45-70's for more than a year, always concerned about the "nastiness" of REAL black powder and thus avoiding it like the plague. all totally and completely unfounded. ask me why.

Okay, I'll bite...why?

[Lead pot]

I shoot black powder on and off in all of my hand guns and rifles, including the .45 1911 and never have I seen rust or corrosion.

Quite frankly I'm surprised that the MOD has not moved this to a smokeless forum where he might get better help on this subject.

[Chill Wills]

Quite frankly I'm surprised that the MOD has not moved this to a smokeless forum where he might get better help on this subject.

Yup - I thought that too - not that I am a stickler, this thread has good info but it is about white powder loading and subs. Hey! Charlie is not here to be the Eeyore (RIP Charlie) someone has to:p

[Soundguy]

Trail boss, a fast powder, can be used to safely load even trap door level guns. Its bulky.

[iplaywithnoshoes]

190133 190134 If these loads seem too stiff for you then reduce the charge to around 23 grains. Since 4759 has been discontinued I've found that Accurate 5744, same weight, gives identical performance.

Wow, those are great groups. I'll be sure to try these out then. I will likely never find any 4759 so my little pile of 5744 should do fine. I hope the unburnt powder left over isn't a sign of some loading error of mine.


I load Blackhorn 209 with a .030 wad per load data under a lee 405 ( both flat base and hollow base ). It'll have some compression. Works great for me in several 45-70's.

Good to know, I'll try this out. What kind of bullet hardness/alloy are we talking about and how are you sizing them?


"I fear ruining my new barrel with just the slightest bit of residue left over from Black Powder or Pyrodex. "

If you are using a single shot rifle like the sharps or a Rolling Block just use HOT soapy water to clean the barrel with. Spray WD40 after you dry the barrel with clean patches and run several more clean dry patches through the bore and lube with Ballistol or a good Gun Lube or CLP. I've done that for years and haven't had a problem with rust or corrosion.

In a repeater like the M1876 or M1887, I put a fired case back in the chamber and close the lever and pour a water/Ballistol mix down the tube and wait ten minutes, drain and run dry patches down the bore a few times, remove the cartridge case and spray the WD40 in the chamber end down the barrel and let it sit on a folded towel, muzzle down until it drains out, then hit the bore with a few more dry patches and the CLP or Ballistol. Works like a charm.


to each their own - i have found within 58 years of trad side-lock muzzleloader loading/shooting/cleaning that ol' plain tepid tap water is all that's needed if the barrel and lock have been well cared for from the get-go. no heat and no soap. bp residue is readily dissolved with only plain water. always has, always will, since its invention a half millennium ago. for both barrel and removed lock, patch dry after water cleaning, then patch with a bit of oil. done ... and well cared for. all my guns have bright, clean barrels. always have. always will. ymmv.

This is good to know as well, thank you again for the advice. It makes sense that black powder is highly water soluble, i was afraid of it staying in the nooks and crannies of the rifling, that's all.


I shoot black powder on and off in all of my hand guns and rifles, including the .45 1911 and never have I seen rust or corrosion.

Quite frankly I'm surprised that the MOD has not moved this to a smokeless forum where he might get better help on this subject.

I did ask for some BP advice as well so I guess this can apply to both. I figured that maybe a lot of people on here were fairly interdisciplinary with both smokeless and BP.


Trail boss, a fast powder, can be used to safely load even trap door level guns. Its bulky.

I'm a big fan of it so far. A lot of people complain about it in .45-70 but some of my best groups at 100yds (very similar to the pictures quoted above) were done with 12.5grs. I have yet to push it to the 13.0gr that Hodgdon lists as a max.

shoe

[rfd]

Okay, I'll bite...why?

bp residue cleaning is easy with plain tepid water, a patch and a jagged rod. a few drying patches, then a lightly oiled patch. done. too easy.

[therealhitman]

OK. Not really the best punchline I've ever heard but I asked for it. :kidding:

[ascast]

Unique as a reduced load has been around far longer than all but maybe 1 or 2 guys reading this. If Unique caused chamber rings, we would have heard about it in the 1930's.
Nonsense

[iplaywithnoshoes]

Tried BH209 over the weekend with promising results. Now to start reeling in a load to use occasionally then move to some Swiss in the near future. No problems so far with Unique so I think I will stick with that as a reduced load for 405gr.