Name that Enfield

[1trkmind]

I have an old Lee Enfield-1907. I'm not real sure which one it is, it's open top and has the volley sights. Here are some pics. if anyone has an idea?188093188094188095188096188099188100188101188 102

[Der Gebirgsjager]

What do you want to know? It tells you what it is on the buttstock collar beneath the bolt handle: Sht. LE I *** . BSAco. is the manufacturer, which is Birmingham Small Arms Co. Sht. L.E. means Short Lee Enfield, later on Short Model Lee Enfield or Short Magazine Lee Enfield depending on your reference source. It was the first in that series of SMLE as indicated by the "I" (Roman numeral for 1), and the stars indicate minor modifications to the original pattern. Your model was used after the Boer War and was replaced by the No.I Mk. III, and by the end of WW I the most common was the No. I Mk. III*, the main modification being the elimination of the magazine cutoff plate. However, the British were sometimes hard pressed to field sufficient rifles of the latest model, and your rifle could well have seen use in WW I. It used to have more wood on the front end than it presently has, and has been sporterized. Since the barrel appears uncut it could be restored to it's original military configuration if you desired to do so, but authentic parts for that older model are getting harder to find. A book where you can see how it looked originally and find out a bit more about your rifle is: The British Service Lee, by Ian Skennerton. You just missed an extensive thread on 5 round magazines which you may be able to turn up on a "search". Most Lee Enfields were issued with 10 round magazines.

[Adam Helmer]

1trkmind,

What you have is a butchered military arm. I would offer you $25 for a parts gun, as is. I see no need to identify a total demise of a former military arm.

Adam

[KCSO]

Bubba job on a SMLE WWI rifle.

[RogerDat]

1trkmind,

What you have is a butchered military arm. I would offer you $25 for a parts gun, as is. I see no need to identify a total demise of a former military arm.

Adam

Knowing what it is can often provide the incentive for restoring or refurbishing back to military configuration. If it was yet another No. 1 Mk3 that had been sporterized then maybe just shoot it and enjoy a nice shooting durable rifle able to kill pretty much any North American game animal. But on finding out the history one might be inclined to look into putting out some money in order to bring it back so to speak. I'm still mulling over choices and looking into getting parts to bring back my Mk V thanks to the information and support from this site.

I'm not a purist or collector so from my perspective it is enough to give it military furniture, make it able to take a bayonet and have it functioning properly. After all pretty sure they weren't all that fussy about matching serial numbers, wood patina being the same and all that jazz during the war. If I didn't have a sport version I might well buy one if the price was decent. They are a very good ~30 caliber rifle, once you get your brain around the whole head spacing and brass sizing thing for reloading.

I enjoy the heck out of watching the kick my grandson gets out of shooting a "piece of history" with a 200 grain lead bullet and mild load of 4198.

[texasnative46]

1trkmind,

That "sporterized" pre-WWI Enfield MAY BE (it certainly looks like) a SEARS & ROEBUCK 1930s "catalog item". = "the "Big Book" over 75+ years sold MANY thousands of "sporterized" SMLE, 1903 Springfields, Mausers of several sorts & "P-17 American Enfield" rifles, too.
(S&R sold those rifles well into the 1960s. = My Uncle Larry hunted with a "sporterized" WWII-era SMLE from about 1960 until his passing in 2011. - If nothing else, the SMLE is TOUGH.)

yours, tex

[RogerDat]

The brass medal in the stock may be specific to the unit the rifle was issued. Mine had a quarter in it but that is what those were. And the initials under the crown are for the monarch GR for George Rex and later ER for Elisabeth Regina. This is as recall it from some stuff I read last year. So look to who was king or queen when those were made and you will know what persons initials are under the crown. I thought that was neat. Can't imagine the US putting FDR or HST for Truman on our military arms.

The slot to the side above the magazine would have had a plate (still available at fairly decent prices) the plate would have covered the magazine and turned it into a single shot for long range volley fire, then be pulled out to the side to allow rapid fire when enemy was at closer range.

[1trkmind]

Anyone know where I might find the proper wood for this rifle? It has the volley sights, but a newer stock may be able to be inletted to fit them. Also would need the metal furniture. Need to be fairly cheep.

[Multigunner]

The Mark I was originally throated and sighted for the MkVI and earlier marks of the .303 cartridge. If rebarreled and later model sights fitted there will be an SC marking for "Short Cone" denoting the throat is cut for the MkVII bullet and an HV marking denoting that the sight bed was altered for the flatter trajectory of the MkVII cartridge. Early MkI barrels were also reverse taper lapped to relieve friction to allow the MkVI to produce the same velocity in the short rifle barrel as it had in the longer LE barrel.

The Magazine may be from one of the Lee Metford or LE short carbines, these held six rounds and were often used with sporting versions.

The handguard of the MkI was a bit different than that of the MkIII, the front portion was much lower.

Repro fore ends might be available from Enfield associates. They may have other parts you'd need as well.
Most Lithgow fore ends were profiled for the volley sights even if never installed. You might look for one of those in a matching wood and mount the sight dial on it.

[1trkmind]

I have another one, a No.I Mk.III (1908) that I bought a D-P stock and furniture for years ago, I would buy another for the No.I if I could find one

[Texas by God]

1trkmind,

What you have is a butchered military arm. I would offer you $25 for a parts gun, as is. I see no need to identify a total demise of a former military arm.

Adam
I see no need for a lowball condescending offer to a man seeking information on his rifle. Shame on you. Best, Thomas.

[modified5]

I thought Adam was saying it as a joke with no purple font.
At least I hope so.
Sweet Enfield btw.

[Ilwil]

I agree with the condescending observation. Apart from being easily restorable to original configuration, those volley sights are pretty rare, and desirable to collectors. I have a very fine 1912, but the volley sights came off it long ago.

[texasnative46]

Ilwil,

As I'm a shooter/hunter, rather than a collector, I'd strip the volley sight off the rifle, sell same & use that money to buy more ammo/reloading supplies/etc.
(From what I can tell, the rifle is too far gone to ever be worth what its restoration would cost. - In fact, IF a person wants a SMLE in military dress, I'd look for a hunter that wants the rifle, without the nice sights, sell the rifle & buy an example that hasn't been "sporterized".)

In my travels, I see quite a few original, if "Plain Jane", SMLE rifles in unaltered condition; such rifles are not that difficult to find.

just my opinion, tex

[fifty four]

Hi All, long-time lurker here, registered because of this thread. The rifle is a MkI*** SMLE, converted from earlier MkI* and MkI** (your 1907 BSA was originally one of these) by the Royal Navy during WWI. The conversions were fairly minor, basically to update the sights for the then-latest MkVII Ball ammo. Yours still retains most of its hard-to-find early parts, and would be a relatively painless restoration. The forend and early nosecap might be a challenge to find, not too bad though. The minor little stuff (screws etc.), and the buttstock and front handguard are very easy to come by. I would strongly urge you to not part it out or strip it down further. They only made about 16k of these, a hundred years ago. They aren't priceless gems, but they certainly aren't average, run-of-the mill SMLE's either. Hope this helps. Best of luck with it.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Welcome to the forum, fifty four!

[BigEyeBob]

the cocking piece on the bolt is not correct for an LE1,the LE1 had the saftey on the bolt cocking piece.The magazine is worth many times what the rifle is worth more so than the volley sights . The rifle would bring maybe 150 -175 dollars here in Oz if the buyer was generous . The shorter magazines were offered by BSA in thier range of sporting rifles ,which were based on the MLE actions and later the MkI ' s .
Parker Hale ,also used SMLE actions to build sporting rifles ,and had shorter magazines ,that were made in Japan and were marked as such .

[Texas by God]

Nice to meet you, fifty four. A great bunch of people here. Best, Thomas.

[1trkmind]

Bob must be right about the safety because I just tried and it don't work. It has the serial # marked out and a new one added
G
593
E R 34
maybe redone in 1934? Also nice to meet you 54 thanks for the input.

[longbow]

There's lots of sporterized Lee Enfields here in Canada! Some done nicely but most fairly crude.

If the gun is in good mechanical condition with good bore I'd shoot it as is then gradually collect parts to restore it, if I had the inclination or sell, it to someone who would restore it.

I have two No. 5's and a No. 4 MK II in good condition in full military dress and one no. 4 MK I that has been sporterized much as yours has been. One day I may restore it but I got it for $150.00 with scope and no gunsmithing scope mount that alone is worth $60.00. The bore is in excellent condition and it shoots well so I shoot it. One day it mat be returned to as issued condition but for now I enjoy shooting it as is.

I'd suggest getting headspace checked and corrected if necessary then slugging the bore to determine what size mould you need, acquire the appropriate mould, do some reloading and go shoot it.

My .303's all like the NOE 316299 200 gr. sized to 0.315". Groove diameters all run around 0.314". The sporterized gun also likes the Mihec 316410 130 gr. hollow point. They don't feed well being so short but they do shoot well and blow up water jugs with authority.

If you do reload for it and shoot it much, just neck size the brass or brass life will be short. I've gone to the Lee collet die for my .303's for that reason along with the fact that regular dies size the necks down to about 0.310" then I seat boolits of 0.315" which is hard on brass and boolits. I set up the collet die to size to 0.313".

Longbow

[reivertom]

1trkmind,

What you have is a butchered military arm. I would offer you $25 for a parts gun, as is. I see no need to identify a total demise of a former military arm.

Adam

There is no need for slandering another fellow's rifle. If you think it's junk keep it to yourself. If you can't say something nice, you know the rest. Personally I wouldn't mind having one just like it to shoot. Remarks like this do a lot to turn off new shooters an run seasoned shooters to other websites.

[RogerDat]

Slug the barrel with a soft lead slug to find the bore diameter, then I would suggest checking with NOE molds who have a good assortment of .31x size molds to cast whatever size you need. Check out ADI powder web site. ADI is Australian powder company that makes powder for repackaging by US companies and the Aussies have a lot more loads for 303 British and using the ADI powder equivalent chart that shows the US brand names for their powders allows one to get good loads for heavier and lighter bullets than we typically have in US load data.

For me it was ADI load data for a 200 grain .314 bullet that lined up with 3 or 4 US powders. You might also want to look at NOE expander plugs to get the neck tension you want for cast lead.

[Multigunner]

If the standard butt socket mounted safety doesn't work its most likely due to having been reassembled incorrectly at some time.

The safety works on a fast thread multiple splined screw principle. if reassembled with the threads one thread off the safety won't work properly or not at all.
Its a fairly easy fix.

The rifle looks to be well worth the expense of finding a replacement fore end and nose cap.

On other boards I've seen posts from those who have restored these successfully. At one time a few skilled stock makers on these boards used profile cutting machinery to make reproduction fore ends.

You might wish to look up a few dedicated Enfield collector forums and post your questions about restoration there.

[fifty four]

Thanks for the welcome aboard, gents. Multigunner is 100% right about the butt socket safety catch being easily misassembled. I don't believe any of the short rifles (such as the OP's rifle) used the cocking piece style of safety catch. That was an early Lee feature, as BigEyeBob said, used on the long LE mkI etc., Lee-Metfords, and the carbines made on those actions. With so many variants, subvariants, upgrades, conversions and so forth, British Lee rifles are a fascinating and confusing topic. IIRC (often questionable), many of the MkI*** were refurbished and sent to Ireland sometime between the world wars.

[1trkmind]

Here is a pic of all my Enfields, the No.I*** a NO.4 MkI and a No.I MkIII.188290
I shoot the MkIII quite a bit using a #314299 on top of 7-10grs. of red dot. Shot the No.I some and haven't shot the No.4. it's covered in some sort of black varnish,cosmoline maybe. Looks like a real job to remove.

[funnyjim014]

If I happen to purchase such a piece I would bring it back to its former glory, but I'm currently bringing back a Japanese 99 that I'm very in the red so just keep looking good and don't jump on what you need till you get a decent price. Good luck and remember that we are just the keepers of these pieces of history

[Multigunner]

"haven't shot the No.4. it's covered in some sort of black varnish,cosmoline maybe. Looks like a real job to remove. "

Could be "Suncorite" locomotive paint. The British began painting over the blued or parkerised finishes of rifles around WW2.

If the paint is applied reasonably evenly I'd leave it intact.

No real reason not to remove it if it looks blotchy or slapped on.
The paint was never meant to last forever, just prevent rust in tropical enviroments, which it did quite well.

If the finish under the paint is wrecked you can repaint it using outdoor flat black enamel or better yet a baking lacquer.

Clean the bore religiously of course before firing. I've seen slopped on paint in the chambers and down the muzzle of some third world returns.

[Texas by God]

I think Boyd's can furnish the stock bits you need for around $100 or so. Best, Thomas.

[KenT7021]

The charger guide is missing from the bolt head it appears.Springfield Sporters may have some Mk 1 parts.

[leebuilder]

Neat rifle and I can say I am stumped. It's a mk1*** that's for sure and if you can source a charger bolt head it is worthy of restoration. The rest looks like a mish/mash of parts. So get the headspace checked!!!. I have seen rifles like this, many made after WW2 from surplus parts, our navy was issued mles, long Lee's and mk1s. I have a carbine and a rifle from that era and I like them alot.
Be well

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I have 3 very early Enfields 1900 (LSA) , 1901 Sparkbrook) & 1902 (BSA). They are wonderful old rifles and IMHO worth the search for parts to restore if the bore is still in good shooting condition. I shoot a lot of cast boolits through mine.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/IMG_0407_zpsxb97ycg2.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/IMG_0407_zpsxb97ycg2.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/303Martini220CBE105_zps1440956d.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/303Martini220CBE105_zps1440956d.jpg.html)

[reivertom]

Nice looking lineup BA.........

[james23]

I hunted for years with a rifle very similar to that. After ww2 those rifles were what kept a lot of meat on the table. I still have my grampa's sporterized smle that he bought from Sidney I Robinson (bought out by Cabelas must be 20 years ago). They were sold with the wood cut down. I know there is a lot of purists literally angry when they see a sporterized rifle but most don't realize that these conversions were done more than 50 years ago. If I was going to hunt with a .303 I would grab grampa's old rifle cause its a hell of lot nicer to carry than the full wood lee enfields in my collection other the maybe the number 5. Like many of you guys know in the 50's and 60's a new Winchester or Remington was beyond the price range of a lot of guys and they bought what they could afford. There is quite the projects going on up here with guys literally buying parts around the world or making them to restore to original configuration. I know I will never restore grampa's old gun as it has a lot of memories for me as it is. Its nice to see my kids fire it too. I did buy a cheap LE mk 1* years ago that I'm slowly restoring to original specs. Good luck with yours.

[texasnative46]

james23,

WELL SAID. = My Uncle Larry bought a (frankly rather nicely) sporterized Mk 1* for about 35.oo from Sears & Roebuck about 1953-53 & hunted with it every season until his untimely passing in 1972.
(I have that rifle now & it won't be restored, as it has too many nice memories for me of many days in the deer woods & hunting with him in the early 1960s.)

yours, tex

[merlin101]

Thanks for all the SMLE info! I just had a SMLE III follow me home tonight. Yes it is sporterized and I think that's the way it will stay, kinda of a shame tho as it still has a bunch of cartouche on the stock still but was nicely shortened. If I was better at posting pic's I be glad to show her off!

[Texas by God]

I'm reminded of the pilot episode of The Lone Ranger when (in British tourist disguise) he requests "a proper Lee Enfield rifle" from a suspect bad guy in order to shoot something off of Tonto's head. Thanks for the memory BA Wallace!

[merlin101]

Do all SMLE's take the same magazine? I need to get one for a SMLE III.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I'm reminded of the pilot episode of The Lone Ranger when (in British tourist disguise) he requests "a proper Lee Enfield rifle" from a suspect bad guy in order to shoot something off of Tonto's head. Thanks for the memory BA Wallace!

I've got that on tape, There is another part where the Lone Ranger are galloping down the road and you see a steel towered powerline in the background. Don't you just love Roy Rogers, biff, biff, double biff: but the hat never moves!:guntootsmiley:

[Texas by God]

We watched just about every Western that was. The Rifleman is my favorite even though he should have had a 73 Win. The area in SoCal where a lot of them were filmed remains beautiful.
Best, Thomas.

[fifty four]

Do all SMLE's take the same magazine? I need to get one for a SMLE III. Yes, .303 SMLE's use the same mag. Keep in mind, though: No.4 rifles and the No.5 "Jungle carbine" are not SMLE's and the magazines are different.

[Adam Helmer]

OK Guys, as a serious military arms collector, I apologize for being overly sensitive in my prior post. I would never hope to run off a poster to another site. I bought my first military surplus arm in 1958 and saw far too many "Butchered" as-issued military arms in the 1950s and 1960s.

The rifle in question is a Mark III. ( It became a No.1 MkIII in 1923 when the Brits renumbered their rifles." ) I have a MkIII dated 1911 with the magazine cutoff, volley sights, etc. I agree the posters rifle can be restored to as-issued condition. The 1907 date is interesting as that is a very Low Number and very desirable in as-issued condition.

Again, no insult was intended; Pardon me.

Adam

[RustyReel]

OK Guys, as a serious military arms collector, I apologize for being overly sensitive in my prior post. I would never hope to run off a poster to another site. I bought my first military surplus arm in 1958 and saw far too many "Butchered" as-issued military arms in the 1950s and 1960s.

Adam

Couldn't help yourself could you?? Just had to keep using the "B" word.....

[JSnover]

Couldn't help yourself could you?? Just had to keep using the "B" word.....
Well… I wouldn't apply it to the OP rifle but if no one ever did it there wouldn't be a word for it.

[Multigunner]

"There is another part where the Lone Ranger are galloping down the road and you see a steel towered powerline in the background. "

Saw an old west horror mashup once, very low budget. When they couldn't get hold of a stage coach they ended up substituting a pick up truck, though the story was set in the 1880's.