button rifling

[Oklahoma Rebel]

I was looking at E.R. Shaw's sight at 35 whelen barrels, and I noticed it said their barrels are button rifled. whats the diff. between that and regular cut rifling? and more importantly, is button rifling good for cast boolits? thanks

[runfiverun]

button rifling is a button pulled through a hole drilled in the barrel.
cut rifling is a machine pulling a cutter through a barrel removing a bit of material at a time.
hammer forged is a bunch of hammers pounding the barrel around a mandrel.

which is better?
the one with the holes closest together on the paper.

[wv109323]

There are several ways to make a rifle barrel. As I understand it button rifling cuts all grooves at the same time.I am not sure if it is done in one pass or several. The "button" is an exact fit of a barrel it has cut. Douglas barrels were pioneers in button rifling.
Sometimes one groove is cut in a pass and then the barrel rotated. Also a broach can be used. All the grooves are cut at the same time but multiple cutters deepen the grooves in steps.
Large rifle companies use a forged barrel. The metal is hammered around a mantel then it is removed. There are probably less than 10 rifle companies that forge barrel for sporting rifles.
Cast bullets should be fine in button rifling.
The highest price barrels are for exact sizes and finish or polish of the barrel metal.

[eljefeoz]

a bit off topic, but how is the mandrel removed after the hammers have forged the barrel?
TIA

[1johnlb]

I've got three of their barrels and they all shoot well and have been wanting the same 35 whelen just to have a 35cal to play with. But anything for serious shooting my next will be a kreiger or Pacnor barrel.

[Bent Ramrod]

Pushing the carbide button through the barrel generates stresses that used to cause slight enlargements of the bore at the ends of the blank or when the barrel was turned down to a taper. But buttoned barrels are now stress-relieved by heat treatment, so this problem does not occur any more.

Another advantage of button rifling is that it will show a weak point in the barrel stock well in advance of the barrel's being fitted to an action and fired. I've seen failed barrels with longitudinal seams in them that cracked open when the button was pressed through. Much preferable to have this happen in the barrel shop than in the hands of the customer when he fires the rifle.

A target-grade barrel can be made by any of the three processes. The only difference is capital equipment cost vs. labor cost.

[runfiverun]

they basically just unscrew the mandrel from the barrel.

[country gent]

The button rifled barrel is drilled and reamed to size and possibly even lapped to finish then the Button is pushed or pulled thru it Ironing the rifling into the smooth bore. Most now use a button with the correct "TWIST" ground into it and also turn the button at the correct rate to keep it from Sliding or slipping. All lands and grooves are pressed in the one pass. On broach rifled barrels the broach actually cuts and removes material from the bore when pulled thru. It may be several inches long with teeth running down it. Each tooth removes a small amount of metal (.0002-.0004). These are normally pulled thru the bore with high hydrolic presses. Again they are cut with the specific twist and the press rotates at the correct rate also. Cut rifling is just that a boring bar and cutter head that removes a small amount of metal each pass with a special lathe that rotates the chuck to the carriage with a sine bar to set twist rate. A cut rifled barrel may have 200 -300 passes to complete the rifling. In reality I don't think its how a barrel is cut but the skill and craftsmanship of the person cutting it that matters most.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

ok thanks a lot guys! I have seen how hammer forged barrels are made, it was awesome, but other then that you guys just taght me everything I know about barrel making,lol. one last question, is e.r. shaw a reliable and quality barrel company/provider?? thanks a lot!-Travis

[gwpercle]

All three methods can produce good barrels, more important than the method is the shop doing the making. You order one from a company like : Krieger, Shilen, McGowen, Douglas, Lilja , Shaw and you will more than likely get a good barrel regardless of the method they use.
Some of the new S&W revolvers, like the new model 66 , are button rifled and the bores lead badly with cast bullets.....this stopped me from buying a new one. I don't think it's because they are button rifled , the cause may be they need to be lapped/honed to smooth them out and S&W doesn't do that. I have always heard cut rifling is to be prefered, but a custom barrel shop is a different proposition.
Gary

[jsizemore]

ok thanks a lot guys! I have seen how hammer forged barrels are made, it was awesome, but other then that you guys just taght me everything I know about barrel making,lol. one last question, is e.r. shaw a reliable and quality barrel company/provider?? thanks a lot!-Travis

I've never seen an ER Shaw barrel place at a precision shooting event.

[jsizemore]

I also got to say I saw a Shaw barrel chambered in 220 Swift on a 98 action that shot in the 2's at 100 yards for it's typical short life. All work was done by Shaw.

[plainsman456]

I have several rifles that use their barrels and have no complaints.

Have rebarreled a bunch over the years and have not had any dogs...yet.

[tomme boy]

ER Shaw makes SOME accurate barrels. They supply a lot of manufacturers with barrels. A Lot of the AR15 made have them. I would rely on your smith and his work. A bad smith can make any barrel shoot horrible.

[murf205]

You might want to contact Jesse Ocumpaugh at 35 cal.com to have him rebore your barrel if you have a barrel already on your rifle. His work is VERY reasonable and the lands and grooves inside one of his cut rifle barrels look like a mirror. He made my 30-06 BAR into a 338-06 and it NEVER shot as good as it does now. It will be a heckuva lot cheaper than a new barrel and probably shoot with the best of them.

[eljefeoz]

they basically just unscrew the mandrel from the barrel.

thanks

[44man]

Best for a ML was cut because it was deeper. A button hardens steel sort of like forging. But depth of rifling is not as deep. Still works and wears well. Hammer forging also hardens steel and wears well. What is best? Don't know.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

murf, you say that a guy at 35 cal could rebore a 30-06 cz-550 fs barrel? I want a 35 whelen, so the re-chamber should be easy enough, don't know if you can just drill it out, or if theres any chamber work at all. well there is the throat

[Oklahoma Rebel]

or do you guys think that cz would make a 35whelen in their custom shop? its not too far from the '06 or 9.3x62, which both are chambering options. I would just hate to buy a new gun, ditch a brand new barrel, and pay big bucks to have a custom barrel on it, then have sights put on too! that's another reason I like the cz550, it has good sights, the only new 35 whelens I found on GB had fluted barrels and no sights ( was a rem 700), and I don't want to buy a used gun unless I can see it in person.

[skeettx]

The rebore is great
It will also lighten up the gun, so if recoil is a factor
then rethink
Mike

[murf205]

murf, you say that a guy at 35 cal could rebore a 30-06 cz-550 fs barrel? I want a 35 whelen, so the re-chamber should be easy enough, don't know if you can just drill it out, or if theres any chamber work at all. well there is the throat
I'm sure he can. He does the throat in the process as well. He rebored my BAR Browning and I was told by Dan Pedersen at Classic Barrel and Gun Works that he didn't want to tackle a Browning because of the metallurgy in the steel, but Jesse didn't flinch and the job he did is a work of art, It shoots 250 gr Hornadys into about 1 1/2" @ 100 yds. As a 30-06 it NEVER shot that good. BTW Jesse is very reasonable on shipping and his work.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

cool. on average how thick is a 30-06 barrel towards the muzzle, I mean the wall diameter. one thing about boring it out is that the barrel walls are thinner, but then again he would only be taking .025 off of both sides of the diameter of the barrel ( comprende?)

[murf205]

Most CZ's I've seen had enough "meat" at the muzzle. You should mic the muzzle of your rifle and let him know what the diameter is because he has a minimum for each caliber. Another advantage of a rebore is that you don't have to re-inlet or reblue a new barrel. He uses the cut rifling method and it produces a really smooth barrel, which will be a big help if you are going to cast for the rifle.