new mould

[Hiwall55]

picked up a NEI Aluminum
paper patch mould today, made by Walt in the mid 90's. .395 diameter, 335 grains and a cupped base. never shot a cupped base bullet before, guess if it don't work out I can machine it off.

[country gent]

I use several cup based and find I get a much flatter base with them than the paper stacked up on the flat base. I wrap mine with just enough base fold so when rolled over and into the cupped base there is about a .060-.090 circle of bullet base showing still. This keeps paper laying flat and not bunching up.

[Lead pot]

You have to be careful when ordering a cup based bullet mould that you don't get a rim to thin when ordering it or a cup to deep.
A friend asked me if I would test some bullets for him cast in a new mould he just got that just would not hit a barn door standing inside the barn. I told him to send me a few with instructions how he loads them and I will duplicate his loads and I would recover them to see what is going on.
The first thing I saw pulling the patch off one bullet was the very thin skirt the cup had and the depth the cup was. He patched the bullets with a twisted tail tucked in the deep cup. This was the original idea behind a cupped based bullet to tuck the tail in so the base would have a flat surface the wad rests on. A twisted tail on a flat base bullet is death to accuracy as it clears the muzzle.
Well I shot a few at a target 130 yards off into a snow bank to recover a undamaged bullets to see what is going on. The photo is a self explanatory results. The soft base got pushed up trapping the patch in the wrinkles dragging the patch with it for the 130 yard trip they took and hitting the snow they did not strip off.
The bullet was patched under bore with pretty soft alloy causing the base to bump up trapping the patch.
If you are one that uses a cupped base with the patch folded under or twisted and snipped off like some do get a thick skirt or better yet have a dish based base plug made.
Better yet use a flat base and leave a round clear round spot of lead uncovered over the base edge.


http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/940Leadpot/IMG_0233.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/940Leadpot/media/IMG_0233.jpg.html)

[Don McDowell]

If that cup is the deep thin skirted type, lots of luck with it. If it's a shallow cup with a thicker rim, then just fold your patch on the base to just cover the rim and it should shoot alright, especially at that .395 diameter.

[Hiwall55]

Haven't got the mould yet, but if it's too deep I will set it up in the mill and cut a little off the plug and if the skirt is too thin I should be able to get it in a 4 jaw chuck in the lathe and make it thicker. Will find out in a couple of days. Thanks guys, Bill

[country gent]

The cup base is set buy the shape of the plug. Easiest is to set the plug up in the lathe and recut it all. It maight actually be easier to make a new one from scratch.

[Huvius]

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/940Leadpot/IMG_0233.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/940Leadpot/media/IMG_0233.jpg.html)

Interesting.
Am I correct that the wrinkles toward the base of the boolit are from "bumping up" and that part of the problem is with the paper getting stuck in these tiny wrinkles?
Would a swaged boolit resist wrinkling like this better than a cast boolit?
Seems to me that it would as it is already very compressed with presumably no air or crystalline structure within the boolit. Is this part of why swaged boolits tend to be more accurate other than the higher weight consistency?

[.22-10-45]

I have cupped base paper-patch moulds by Fred Leeth, Tom Brooks, & Tom Ballard. I am all set to try some .40's this Spring..but so far the only cup based paper patch mould I have tried is a Tom Ballard .22 that I used in a .22 Hornet & .222 Rem. I quickly found the same problem in post #7..paper found sticking in cavity at 100yd. berm. I then patched so as to leave center of base-cavity open. Original p.p. ctgs. I have pulled bullets from show this same open area at base. Best of luck!

[Chill Wills]

.22-10-45 You have a Tom Ballard cup base 22 ??!! Wow! I had no idea he made them.

I'm not sure Tom is even with us at this point, but for what it is worth, it is with his mold I first got started in BPCR and PP in the late 1980's. I almost never shoot bullets from it but I should go back and give them a go again just for some fun.

Highwall55 Sorry for going off topic on your post.

[5.7 MAN]

There is a line about a third of the way up the bullet from the base, is that where the little ring of paper comes from?

[Lead pot]

There is a line about a third of the way up the bullet from the base, is that where the little ring of paper comes from?

When the 7 and 9 year old cookie munchers head for home today I will dig out the specks for these bullets. This was test was done 7 or 8 years ago and trying to work from memory would get me in trouble :) That line your talking about is the end of the case behind the 45 degree transition into the throat. You will see this in just about all undamaged recovered bullets or just where the paper was. My cases are chamfered and I don't crimp my bullets. If you look at the far right bullet you can see how narrow the rim is on it and the second from the left how much it got pushed in. But I will look up the specks and post the measurements.
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/th_bd09622c-b195-4417-b5ec-55e9fda0bc63_zpsd562ac3d.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/bd09622c-b195-4417-b5ec-55e9fda0bc63_zpsd562ac3d.jpg.html)

The bullet above is what my alloy will hold setback and protect the ogive and still let it expand filling the grooves for full rotation. You can see where the paper ends below the ogive and below just above the base is the ring where the case mouth was. This rifle does not have the 45 degree chamber end transition into the throat like the modern rifles have, it has a 5 degree but you will still see the ring if the alloy is not harder then needed.
Kurt

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,

Since nobody else has asked, what alloy was your bullet above cast with?

The line left by the case end shows the bullet was fairly deep in the case if it was a bore diameter paper patched bullet. I'm just wondering why that depth?

I've been working for the past several month with a .40-65 WCF and paper patched bullets. In my early efforts I was plagued with paper rings. I had been seating the two-diameter bullets .150" into the case and they were shooting well enough to be encouraging. The bullets were two-diameter to allow for the longish freebore (.400") in this rifle. The length of the groove diameter rear portion of the bullet controls the seating depth. While that mold is a nose pour adjustable flat base mold I did not want to shorten the bullets to get a shallower seating depth due to weight concerns and the desire to use this combo for silhouette.

I began to think the paper rings were a result of perhaps cases that might have been a smidge too short but more importantly the bullets being too deep in the cases.

This meant another mold was needed to decrease the seating depth and keep the weight up. The new mold is a base pour non-adjustable and has a fixed seating depth of only .060". The paper rings disappeared and even better, the accuracy improved greatly.

I'm thinking that with such shallow seating the bullet has probably moved forward just enough as to be clear of the case end in the chamber before any real amount of bump up has occurred.

Does that sound reasonable to you?

I'd like to recover some of these bullets in the snow like you do and see just what they show. Fortunately it looks like I will have to wait several months before that opportunity will present itself again. 8-)

Thanks for answers and thoughts!

Jim

[Lead pot]

Jim.

It took me a while to find the info. The computer blue screened and I did have it backed up but my files where hard to find.
The alloy is unknown. A friend sent me these bullets to test for him powder, compression and so on with instructions the way he wanted me to load them because he had accuracy problems getting to shoot. They were on the thick side of naked diameter of .4957" with .00198" paper that gave m a patched diameter of .50362" and I could only seat them tight into the lands.
Unfired they were 1.410 long and fired 1.363" long .5034" in diameter. They were seated .400" in the case.. The cup rim thickness was .064" thick and a cup .086" deep. I did not know the hardness of the bullet but the way it setback it had to be very soft with .047" setback.

Jim the paper rings and lead rings start between the case end and the 45° chamber end transition into the throat. There is a fine point between the case mouth and that 45° wall leading into the lead. If you trim the case to tight to that 45° wall the case will get pulled up over that wall into the throat, to far off that wall and you will get a paper ring or lead rings. Most of the leading you dig out of the bore start at that 45° and get smeared farther down the bore destroying the accuracy.
I have checked just how far a bullet moves when the black powder hits it. I drilled holes in a case using a #57 drill bit and deep seated a bullet .002" under bore diameter unpatched with the shank over the holes and the tear smear was less then 1/16". I think that the obturation is almost instantly.
I did away with the paper rings and lead rings shooting a greaser by using a throating reamer changing that 45 degree chamber end to 4 or 5 degrees and all of my chamber reamers have that shallow transition into the throat. Chamber cast a original sharps and you will find them as shallow as 3 degrees.
Shallow seating will help but you will still get rings. The paper rings I don't think will hurt anything unless a ring gets picked up by the bullet when it is seated. I have found recovered bullets with ring impressions on the ogives.
Here is a bullet that shows you how far a bullet travels before obturation. You can see the case mouth ring just above the bright ring, and also where a paper or lead ring was picked up loading the round. This bullet was a groove diameter PP.
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/th_IMG_0647-1.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_0647-1.jpg.html)

here are some lead and paper rings. The string like is part of a lead ring. You can see a build up of thinner rings from a case cut close to the chamber end. I can find a ring after every shot fired if I look for it by slowly pushing a tight patch from the muzzle slowly through the chamber and there will be a ring on the patch or fall on the breach block.
Jim I will head up to Wisconsin Rapids next weekend and shoot with Arnie, He said you might come so we can get into this again.
Kurt
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/940Leadpot/th_IMG_0355-1.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/940Leadpot/media/IMG_0355-1.jpg.html)

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,

I plan to go to Arnie's match too, I'm looking forward to it. We can talk more about this stuff there. It will be easier both to explain and understand in person. I will be shooting my .40-65 so you'll be able to see what I've been dealing with. It has been shooting very well at 200m, I hope that carries out to 600 yards and I think it will.

Will you also be at Lodi next month?

Jim

[Distant Thunder]

When the 7 and 9 year old cookie munchers head for home today I will dig out the specks for these bullets. This was test was done 7 or 8 years ago and trying to work from memory would get me in trouble :) That line your talking about is the end of the case behind the 45 degree transition into the throat. You will see this in just about all undamaged recovered bullets or just where the paper was. My cases are chamfered and I don't crimp my bullets. If you look at the far right bullet you can see how narrow the rim is on it and the second from the left how much it got pushed in. But I will look up the specks and post the measurements.
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/th_bd09622c-b195-4417-b5ec-55e9fda0bc63_zpsd562ac3d.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/bd09622c-b195-4417-b5ec-55e9fda0bc63_zpsd562ac3d.jpg.html)

The bullet above is what my alloy will hold setback and protect the ogive and still let it expand filling the grooves for full rotation. You can see where the paper ends below the ogive and below just above the base is the ring where the case mouth was. This rifle does not have the 45 degree chamber end transition into the throat like the modern rifles have, it has a 5 degree but you will still see the ring if the alloy is not harder then needed.
Kurt

Kurt,

It's the bullet pictured above that I wanted to know the alloy used for casting? The nose seems to have held its shape very well.

Jim

[Lead pot]

Jim I cant make Lodi till fall this year.

That bullet has just a smitch of antimony in it. I will give you the particulars this weekend. I will make the range Friday afternoon if Arnie has the gate open.

Kurt

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,

I'll get there as early Saturday morning as my travel time will allow. I'll be up before the chickens and on the road before the sun peeks over the tree tops. Hopefully we'll have some time to talk.

Sorry to hear you won't be at Lodi 'til fall, JK2 and I will be camping at the range in May and most likely again in the fall. That should allow us an evening in the fall to talk over all this paper patched bullet stuff. I know you have done a lot for studying of these bullets and how they work and don't work, so I always interested in what to have to say on the subject. I don't think the learning will ever end for me, which is one of the reasons I find PPBs so fascinating. The fact that when things are right they so gush darn accurate helps keep my interest. Oh, and the fact that I look so good when I'm shooting them helps to! ;-) An old man needs every edge he can find! :-D

Take care and I'll see you Saturday.

Jim, a.k.a. DT, JK1........

[Lead pot]

Jim that learning is continues, it never ends. I been sitting in the class room with cast bullets shot with black powder since 1955 when the NRA sent me my first roller and I'm still behind that desk.
Kurt

[5.7 MAN]

Lead pot thanks for the in depth follow up reply, I get the paper rings in my rifle(c. Sharps 50 2.5). I've shot a few really good groups and a lot of mediocre ones with PP bullets. Still having fun and learning something new every time I head to the range.

thanks!