automatic powder trickler

[6bg6ga]

I first posted on this in Aug of 2013 trying to see if there was any interest in the idea.

jmorris did a nice video showing his setup

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?296214-Ideas-on-how-to-make-a-powder-trickler/page3 Showing a real nice inexpensive photo sensor in the thread. As it sometimes happens ideas go to the wayside sometimes to be left un made and sometimes they come back to life.

[6bg6ga]

First of all a hearty thanks to jmorris for putting me onto the inexpensive photo switch.

I will try to post a few pictures in case someone would like to see them.

I also have a video but I'm too old to know how to get it from the phone to the forum so if I figure out how I will post it.

Disclaimer... This is not up to jmorris standards so don't expect too much. Its a product of what I had around the house and garage that I finally

put together. The only additional thing I'm going to add is an adjustable speed control on the trickler motor.

[6bg6ga]

187898

[6bg6ga]

187899

187900

187901

187902

Note*... On the RCBS powder trickler I added lead to the bottom to give it more stability. I simply drilled a hole on the side about a 1/2" from the bottom and installed a self tapping screw. After installing the screw I filled the bottom with molten lead.

[6bg6ga]

The electronic control box is a Crestron battery charger box that was scrapped from work. The aluminum brackets are from a TOA mixer amp heat sink that gave its life for the cause. The powder measure is a 30 year old RCBS hand trickler. The motor is something I think that came from ebay. Its geared down and slips inside the RCBS trickler tube and I did a redneck job of simply drilling it and I used a tooth pick as the shear pin.

Its crude and no match for what other here on the forum can do but it does show that with some thinking one can put together a project will very little money going out the door.

The electronic circuit is crude but works fine. It consists of two relays and a transistor circuit to drive the second relay. Operation is simple...I use it in conjunction with a powder measure. I simply set the scale to what I want the final charge to be and I throw the charge with the powder measure and then put the pan on the scale and hit the start button. The powder trickler starts up arrives at the set amount and the relay drops power to the trickler so it cannot cycle again. Once the charge is reached the pan is pulled off the scale and dumped into the shell casing and the pan is again refilled via the powder measure and then placed onto the scale and the cycle runs again.

[6bg6ga]

Like I mentioned I will adapt some trickler motor speed control and in addition to this I will mount the powder measure close enough so that I can dump the charge into the scale pan. Probably use some type of flex tube to do so.

[Lloyd Smale]

that's pretty cool

[jmorris]

I like it, simple and effective.

The further away from the pivot you can mount the switch the more sensitive (more accurate) it will be.

[6bg6ga]

Thanks

[6bg6ga]

I like it, simple and effective.

The further away from the pivot you can mount the switch the more sensitive (more accurate) it will be.

I ordered another sensor last week to replace the one that is shown. I cheated and epoxied the sensor to the piece of aluminum plate that I screwed to the back of the scale. I used two very small C-clamps to secure the bracket while I drilled it. I then removed the bracket so I could tap the holes 6-32.

I'm going to remove the one shown to take it apart and see if there is a possibility of moving it as close to the end of the pointer as possible.

Right now its seems really steady as it throws the same charge for each cycle and its just a slight touch above the O-line probably 1/4 of a tenth of a grain over right now.

I have no pencil type powder to try to see if there is a problem with these types of powders. It currently throws H110, H335, and Unique right on the money.

[6bg6ga]

Just another thought..... I have this scale working with the powders I tested it with. Why not leave it alone?

I have a second scale and I could do a better job knowing what I know now. As jmorris said mount it further away from the pivot point

so I will be able to move it maybe another 1/2" and get better resolution.

There doesn't seem to be any interest on the subject right now but maybe someone will stumble in and read a few of my mumblings and

possibly be inspired to build one of these for themselves.

[6bg6ga]

I have less than $20.00 INVESTED IN THIS. To me it sure beats the hell out of spending in excess of $300.00 for a commercial made one.

[kbstenberg]

I am electrically inept, but I can duplicate what I see in an electric diagram. Could you draw a rough sketch of the wiring dia. please! Kevin

[6bg6ga]

PM sent

[MostlyLeverGuns]

MidwayUSA had(has?) a battery operated powder trickler under Frankford(?) brand, push a button, trickle tube rotates. It does work very well.

[jmorris]

Where did you source your gearmotor from?

[waltherboy4040]

Very cool, I'm surprised there isn't more options for automatic powder tricklers.

[6bg6ga]

Where did you source your gearmotor from?

The gear motor is a long output shaft worm gear motor 300 motor for diy. is the ebay explanation. They are a wallet breaker at (2) for $3.57 rated 25-50 rpm with a voltage rating I believe up to 12VDC.

There is a little difference in the internal diameter of the RCBS powder trickler and the OD of the motor shaft. I simply cut the shaft back a little and wrapped a little tape around the OD of the shaft. I then drilled thru the motor shaft and trickler tube and installed a round toothpick which I cut off leaving just a little showing on each side of the tube.

Note* I used one with a plastic drive shaft.

[6bg6ga]

MidwayUSA had(has?) a battery operated powder trickler under Frankford(?) brand, push a button, trickle tube rotates. It does work very well.

MostlyLeverGuns,

Yes, I realize there is a battery powered powder trickler available from Midway. You and I and thousands of others here on this forum believe that we can do things our way and do it cheaper and better in the process.

I thought about this in 2013 simply because I'm too cheap to buy something I believe is inferior to what I can make. This is what DIY is all about. There is no better inspiration for DIY than jmorris. Heck, he has come up with more cool stuff than you can shake a stick at. It was jmorris that found the cost effective sensor and was willing to share. I posted this because I thought maybe others might feel the same way I do. Its not for everyone but it simple, effective, and it works.

[6bg6ga]

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xlong+outp ut+shaft+worm+gear+motor+300+motor+for+diy.TRS0&_nkw=long+output+shaft+worm+gear+motor+300+motor+f or+diy&_sacat=0

link to motor

Note* Check the motor shaft OD and the trickler's ID if you plan on slipping it inside the trickler shaft.

[6bg6ga]

Very cool, I'm surprised there isn't more options for automatic powder tricklers.

From what I have been able to gather there is one inexpensive model the midway one and a bunch of expensive ones. There is one from England but its too pricy for me hence the homemade one.

[6bg6ga]

Power connectors were standard as the power supply had one on it and I simply obtained the female that matched.

The scale sensor connectors are 3.5mm a female on the power supply box and a male on the wire from the sensor on the scale.

The power connector's for the powder tricker on the power supply and the bracket for the trickler are both female. This allows one to take a simple RCA patch cord to hook the two together. (This allows one to use anything from a very short patch to a 3' if needed.

[6bg6ga]

I will gladly post the wiring diagram for those who have Pm'd me or are otherwise interested. Give me a couple of days to try to put together a list of parts that won't cost an arm and a leg.

[1066]

This appears to be the latest generation of auto-trickler. Not cheap, especially if you need to buy a $500 scale to use it with.
http://www.autotrickler.com/

[6bg6ga]

This appears to be the latest generation of auto-trickler. Not cheap, especially if you need to buy a $500 scale to use it with.
http://www.autotrickler.com/

A lot of money for what it is.

[jonas302]

Very cool I love seeing creative gadgets like that especially ones that don't break the bank

[jmorris]

A lot of money for what it is.

Yeah, even with the first proximity switch I used it could get with in a single kernel repeatability.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nA0_KDjbBGQ

[jmorris]

Also they are more sensitive and don't "self zero" like the CM 1500's.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmxBSOOL7Ks

[6bg6ga]

Great video's!! Post#28 shows just how quick one could get into trouble with too much tech. The RCBS units as john has pointed out self calibrate. Looks good on paper but in practice it will yield wild results if the operator doesn't catch the problem. Several tenths of a grain are more than enough to make accuracy suffer and possibly raise pressures into the unsafe zone depending on the load being loaded.

The powder measure that john did shows remarkable accuracy. Just another reason to diy.

[6bg6ga]

John's video post #27 shows probably the best reason to build your own unit. The ability to throw a charge this close means the very best in accuracy and not only accuracy but safety. Being able to throw a charge this close is not a industry norm but rather the very best in engineering. Those that reload know that trying to throw a charge of the what I call course powder the kind you generally want to cut with an exacto knife is hard to do yet John makes it look like child's play.

[6bg6ga]

I'll have to admit that I really wanted the setup that you purchase to use with a $500 scale. Its really nice and high tech but then reality set in and I had to come to terms of either having a high tech powder trickler or having another gun. The gun purchase won and I still didn't have my powder trickler.

Next choice was the Target master. I really liked it but didn't like the price. Finally the renewed interest in the automatic diy powder trickler.

What you should be able to see after watching these fine video's is performance can be bettered by making it yourself. John has proven the accuracy of the unit and this cannot be argued with. Its on video and its been repeated cycle after cycle with very course powder. Imagine the accuracy one can get with H335 or H110 for example.

All these toys we make brings back the fun of reloading in my opinion.

[6bg6ga]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACd3yt0J3Bg

If you check the placement of the sensor you will see that it is as far away from the pivot point that you can get and as John pointed out equates to higher accuracy.

Looking at the placement of he sensor makes me want to cut off a portion of the base to get the sensor even further away from the pivot point for better accuracy yet.

The more I watch the video the more envious I am of the powder measure chute that puts all the powder in the pan and not on the table.

[1066]

Here's some scales modified to give extra moment length for auto-tricklers.
The first one is a new experimental beam I made for the new RCBS M500 scale. It only registers from 0-70 grains and has an extended damper as an optical cut-off. It also has a single point pan suspension system, replaceable knife edges and variable sensitivity.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/allan1066/th_IMG_20150430_223601_zpsdboooexh.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/allan1066/media/IMG_20150430_223601_zpsdboooexh.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/allan1066/th_Snap_20130928_16h42m40s_002_zps9cd9958a.png (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/allan1066/media/Snap_20130928_16h42m40s_002_zps9cd9958a.png.html)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/allan1066/Targetmaster/th_Lee2a.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/allan1066/media/Targetmaster/Lee2a.jpg.html)

[6bg6ga]

Great work!

You just gave me the idea to add to my scale beam and rebalance the scale. I would think this could be done rather easily simply by drilling the beam and adding a section of metal, making sure its aligned with the main beam and then playing with the weight to once again obtain a balance or ability to zero the scale again with the addition to the beam.

[6bg6ga]

http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?search_type=jamecoall&catalogId=10001&freeText=291507&langId=-1&productId=291507&storeId=10001&ddkey=http:StoreCatalogDrillDownView

This should be some cost effective ice cube relays for $4.49 Ea


For this project I used 2) quad pole 12vdc relays that were DPDT. The first relay only needs to be a single pole but the price is the same for multiple poles. The second relay I used 3) contacts on the relay.

[6bg6ga]

http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?search_type=jamecoall&catalogId=10001&freeText=252824&langId=-1&productId=252824&storeId=10001&ddkey=http:StoreCatalogDrillDownView

Power supply from Jameco

Basically anything 12VDC that will run the optical sensor, and two relays. Optional to run the powder trickler motor.

[6bg6ga]

I haven't checked the current draw on the optical sensor but the relays I posted will draw 75mA each for 150mA. I will throw in another 150mA to cover the motor and optical sensor just for grins but I know it doesn't take that much to run them.

Maximum current draw will be under 300mA. I always double the figure just so the supply doesn't have to be pushed.

If you have something laying around feel free to shoot a PM or throw it in a reply if you want to know if it will work.

[6bg6ga]

Parts cost

Sensor $8.41 + 1.98 shipping

Motors $3.57 only need one

Relays and PS $21.93 plus shipping

Case whatever you want.

Wire cost ? maybe $1 or 2

Switch micro or push type Added* 2) 1N4007 diodes for the relays probably less than .20 ea.

Not going to spec a switch just use a momentary contact type. (I used a intercom switch I had)

Total probably less than $45 plus case for relays $50.00 worst case?

Forgot a couple of piece of scrap aluminum for sensor bracket? and trickler/ motor bracket.

Still cheaper than buying one. Better performance too.

[6bg6ga]

I posted some cost effective parts that I felt were reasonable. If you happen across something even cheaper post it for others to benefit from.

If you have used working relays within the specs I posted use them. Scrap wire by all means. Try to have some type of color code

so things don't get mixed up.

A terminal strip might be beneficial for ease of operation, trouble shooting, and basic layout.

[6bg6ga]

188256

For clarification

Relay number 1 has a closure between its common/wiper terminal and its normally closed terminal when not activated.

Relay number 2 control has connections on its common/wiper and its normally open terminal when not activated.

When relay 1 is activated its contact goes open.

When relay 2 is activated its contact or contacts depending on your use will go closed.


On relay 2 I used a battery (9volt) to provide power to the trickler motor. I simply used two sets of contacts to make wiring easier.

[6bg6ga]

Explanation of circuit operation.

Relay 1

Relay 1 provides 12VDC to the start switch SW1. When SW1 is pushed it activates Relay 2. When this happens a set of contacts maintains a contact closure across SW1. In addition to the function cycle additional contacts allow for voltage to activate the trickler motor. All this continues until the zero state or balance of the scale is achieved. Once this happens the optical sensor provides a voltage to the transistor's base Q1. The transistor is turned on providing a missing ground that R1 needs in order to activate.

Relay 2

When the transistor Q1 is turned on it activates the relay which in turn opens the contact that was closed interrupting the voltage going to the switch and relay 2 thus ending the cycle.

[6bg6ga]

Parts list

Providing your going to use a 12vdc supply I have provided the following list.

R1 3.8K 1/2 watt is fine

R2 100K 1/2 watt is fine

Q1 2N3904 NPN Transistor EBC pin out

D1,D2 1N4007 diode

SW1 momentary contact switch micro or other.

R1 DPDT 12VDC relay

R2 DPDT 12VDC relay

P1 Power supply Jameco Pn given.

PN's for Jameco or similar relays given


Note* R1 is a rough ball bark figure which should work. Since beta values for transistors aren't consistent you may have to change this a little.

[6bg6ga]

Originally I had used a 9v battery as my trickler motor supply. Today I changed it to run off the 12vdc power supply. In addition I made the following change. I installed series resistance to lower the voltage to the motor to provide a slower speed. I paralleled two 330 ohm resistors. I now have a speed of 38rpms. One could use a 500 ohm pot to provide a variable speed.

[6bg6ga]

188371

188372

188373

[6bg6ga]

My particular photo switch unit wouldn't run the relay directly and that is the reason I used a transistor to activate the relay.

[kokomokid]

When are you going to put kits & instructions on the market?

[kbstenberg]

When a person is making one of this project. You have to keep in mind that the trickler has to be easily serperated from its power when you want to change powder type.

[kbstenberg]

Can you also show each of the comp. with labeling of what it is and where it goes. For us electrically inept persons.

[6bg6ga]

When are you going to put kits & instructions on the market?

I tried to gauge interest in the project back in 2013 and was met with criticism and skepticism which is why I didn't take it any further.

With respect to kits...I'm sure someone will pick up the ball and run with it similar to what they have done with PID temp controlling kits.

I've furnished information for parts necessary to DIY your trickler.

[6bg6ga]

When a person is making one of this project. You have to keep in mind that the trickler has to be easily serperated from its power when you want to change powder type.

My picture shows how I made mine so you can unplug the power supply from the unit.

188434

With respect to emptying out the trickler... simply unplug the power supply to it and dump it into your powder can. I usually dump the hopper and then point the tube toward the powder can and gently tap it several times and it is completely empty.

[6bg6ga]

Can you also show each of the comp. with labeling of what it is and where it goes. For us electrically inept persons.

I have pasted component pictures that show the transistor pin out as well as the diode polarity. Short of that I don't know what else I can do.

The relays are a simple matter.. when you look at the relay you can easily find the common wiper and the normally open and normally closed contacts. The coil contacts are easily visible and if one has a VOM ( volt ohm meter) one can easily find the resistance of the coil and the coil contacts. That is an easy matter since the two remaining contacts will be the coil contacts.

The sensor... It has three wires. The brown is the +, the blue is the -, and the black is the output wire.

Post #40 shows the wiring diagram

[jmorris]

I used a relay that the switch could power directly. This is how its wired.

[6bg6ga]

I used a relay that the switch could power directly. This is how its wired.

I tried the same thing. Unfortunately mine wouldn't power the relay. Mine would only pull in 30mA which was less than the relay needed to pull in and the sensor is rated for 200mA.

A few days ago I ordered an additional sensor. I suspect mine had a problem.

[6bg6ga]

Looking at the schematic that jmorris posted I will comment and say its simple and easy and certainly less complicated than the one I posted.

What are the differences you may be thinking?

With John's you flip the switch to turn on the trickler motor. The motor trickles the powder in and the scale balances. When the scale hits the balance point the optical beam is broken and the relay is energized. To my thinking at this point the switch must be opened to ready the trickler for the next cycle, the powder is dumped, the tray is put back into place and it readied by the powder measure's load and is ready for its next cycle.

Mine is certainly more complicated in that it uses a momentary contact closure the switch. When the switch is depressed the relay #2 is pulled in and one contact of the relay keeps the contact closure as it parallels the switch. When this happens contacts #3 and #4 on the relay #2 provide 12 volts DC to the trickler motor to make it turn. When the powder is dispensed and the balance is achieved the optical beam is broken and at this time the relay #1 momentarily opens its normally closed contact providing power to relay #2 and relay #2 opens all its contacts to the normally open position again and this resets the unit to begin yet another cycle. To sum up you push the button once to start the cycle and it returns to normal state once its reached the balance point.

Both schematics will do the job but one thing I will point out is the necessity to block the EMF pulse that CAN happen when the relay coil is DE energized. That is the reason for the diode across the coil.

John's schematic is simple and easy to construct and probably much better for those without a lot of experience building circuits but does require a start switch reset.

My schematic is more difficult to put together for the novice, requires more parts, and costs more. Between the two of us we have provided the best parts, and options for you to DIY your own electronic powder trickler.

[6bg6ga]

Testing and observations this past weekend...

Have been able to test the electronic powder trickler in conjunction with an electronic scale. My results are in agreement with those of jmorris. Using 4895 powder I was able to obtain results of .05-.065 As jmorris pointed out even greater accuracy is possible with the sensor further away from the balance point of the scale.

With ball type powder I was able to maintain accuracy of .05

[kbstenberg]

Thanks so much for the diagram it is just what i need for my build.
My sensor is ordered. When ordering the relay what do i need to know?
So with Johns plan the switch has to be turned off when the beam sensor shuts the power off to the trickler. Or if not shut off. The trickler starts back up when the tray of powder is taken off of the scale. Kevin
I was just looking at Johns diagram again. He has the + wire from the power supply going to the sensor to the relay and then back to the positive wire going from the Power Supply to the motor. Wouldn't that cause a short in the system?

[jmorris]

John's schematic is simple and easy to construct and probably much better for those without a lot of experience building circuits but does require a start switch reset.


Yes, I used a push button latching switch.

If you look at the far right side of this video, it is mounted on the little post. After I throw the "short" charge, I press the button that allows power to go to the motor until the photo switch activates because the beam is in the proper location and cuts power to the motor. I then again depress the switch on the right so it doesn't take off when I pick up the pan.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACd3yt0J3Bg


I was just looking at Johns diagram again. He has the + wire from the power supply going to the sensor to the relay and then back to the positive wire going from the Power Supply to the motor.

The sensor needs 12v +\- to work and the output from the trigger is "-". The coil on the relay can only be energized by the negative trigger from the sensor if it already has "+" supply. When energized the relay provides "-" to the motor but it would do nothing if it did not already have a "+" connection.

That said there are other ways of doing the same job, like switching the "+" side or like 6bg6ga did.

[jmorris]

Looks like we might have different wiring of our switches 6ga6ba seems to have a positive output from his and the ones I have are negative output.

For more visual folks this is the wiring for the switch and relay I am using.

[kbstenberg]

John in the last pictures. The yellow device is the sensor (already ordered). Is the clear box your relay? The small black device on the right side of the picture I am guessing is your motor. And the black device in the upper part of he picture is the switch.
Once again sorry for being a pain in the butt. with all of my questions.

[6bg6ga]

First of all a hearty thanks to jmorris for posting some pictures for clarity. I had sent john a PM about his wiring because its different than mine. My photo switch for some reason delivers a positive signal with respect to ground and has very low current capabilities while John's will drive the relay directly without the help of a transistor and is of the negative polarity.

188528

First a picture showing the correct polarity of my supply using an antique Simpson model 260.

188529

188530

Pictures of connection between ground and the sensor output terminal. Simpson set to DC plus will show + voltage between the ground and the output sensor wire.

[6bg6ga]

Once again I tried to drive a relay directly and was unable to do so. I suspect a possible change in internal circuitry of the photo sensor. I also feel there are different photo sensor configurations which would result in getting one delivering either a negative or a positive relay.

Possibly the only thing left is to mention PN's ... mine is E3S-GS30E4

At any rate they both work and work well.

I have uncovered another sensor that seems to have two different PN's one of which is identical to the NPN unit I used and the other has a PNP output.

Looking at its wiring diagram it shows Brown which is positive and blue which is negative and its black lead is a product of the negative because its a PNP unit.

So, I suggest the following be done..... when receiving your sensor simply hook it up brown to positive of you supply, blue to ground of your supply. simply take a piece of masking tape to cover up the sensor and measure with your probes of your meter blk meter probe to ground of your supply and red meter probe to the blk output wire on the sensor.

If it reads a negative supply like John's simply follow his wiring instructions for a simple trouble free wiring experience.

If it gives a positive output then it probably will need a NPN transistor to act as a switch to turn on the relay like I did.

At any rate its a simple matter and if you end up with a sensor with a positive output and it will not drive the relay directly and you don't wish as elaborate a schematic as I have designed I can scale it down to be simpler on the same order as John's.

188572

[6bg6ga]

Different PN's for Omron sensors

So far I have found the following PN's

NPN outputs

E3S-GS30E4

E3S-GS30E42

E3S-GS3E4

PNP output

E3S-GS30F4

E3S-GS30F42

E3S-GS30P1

Caution may be necessary when ordering from Ebay suppliers from China simply because in several occasions I have noticed them showing a picture with a different PN from what their advertising.

In addition.....I have found the PN I had ordered to be available in either PNP output or NPN output under the SAME part number. This makes things more complicated but in the end it will be worth the time and effort.

[6bg6ga]

For those wondering about the NPN and PNP sensors I will explain with a diagram. This will show the difference between jmorris's sensor and the one I used.

188599

[6bg6ga]

The sensor I used is a NPN output. jmorris's sensor provides a negative output so its a PNP.

If you look at the diagram you will see that based on the diagram 188600

its evident that the NPN's output/load will be positive the PNP will be negative.

Either way we'll make sure you get a diagram that works.

Keep in mind however to USE a diode across the relay coil and the position of the diode is important for it to protect against back EMF. 188601

The cathode or the "line, black line will go to the positive terminal on the coil.

If your going with the jmorris diagram please remember that he used a latching switch so its operation is going to be push to latch have scale reach zero to balance the motor stops and you push the switch to unlatch dump the powder tray and put the tray back on the scale.

Mine is more complicated involves more parts but does the latching of the contact and unlatching of the contact automatically. Mine you push the start button to start the cycle the motor runs the scale hits zero and the circuit automatically resets for you for the next cycle.

[6bg6ga]

Observations on this thread and its operation of trickler automation.

First of all a thanks to John Morris jmorris for his contribution's, fine diagrams, and posts contributing to clarity, operation,and understanding of this project.

John gave a great diagram and contribution's on his negative triggered control system. Mine was a different twist on a positive control system. More pictures will follow as I will shoot some wiring diagrams for those having some problems.

Additions to the motor speed control are a 500 ohm pot that allows one to fine tune the trickler motor speed.

If I could change one thing...what would it be? I used a RCBS trickler simply because I had one I purchased very many years ago. To be blunt its one I had on hand. When I watch it run I wish it had bearings for the trickler tube simply because I can see run off and it drives me nuts. If I had a mill in the garage I would setup and machine it for some decent bearings or I would do what jmorris did and simply make a better one. John, I'm lusting after your trickler.

One thing this thread has done and its to prove that If you really want to make something it can be done. I've shown thanks to John finding an inexpensive sensor (my first one was about $50) is the main problem in making this little jewel.

I hope the interest will continue to grow and people will post some nice pictures of their finished project and maybe this thread will turn into a sticky like the PID threads.

I have made videos from my phone of the operation of my trickler but I do not know how to post them. If anyone knows how this can be done please do let me know as I'm an old fart in my last year of employment waiting to retire. I've gotten my first company provided cell phone an IPhone and I'm phone dumb. I've never owned my own cell phone.

[1066]

I have made videos from my phone of the operation of my trickler but I do not know how to post them. If anyone knows how this can be done please do let me know as I'm an old fart in my last year of employment waiting to retire. I've gotten my first company provided cell phone an IPhone and I'm phone dumb. I've never owned my own cell phone.

I've found the easiest way to get videos from my phone (I don't know anything about IPhone only Android) Is to either take the SD card out of the phone and use a card reader plugged directly into a USB port on the computer. I then use Windows Live movie maker to upload from the card onto the computer. From Window live movie maker you can upload to YouTube, Photobucket or some other free video hosting site.

If your phone doesn't have a separate SD card you should be able to connect it to the computer by a micro usb cable and it will show up as an external drive and again can be sucked up by windows movie maker.

I'm not computer savvy but this works for me.

[6bg6ga]

It doesn't have an SD card. I don't know anything about windows movie maker either.

[jmorris]

I do my videos from a cell phone and upload to YouTube. It doesn't allow me to edit videos but I guess that keeps me honest and also keeps them from being a bunch of fluff and have some sort of music that someone wouldn't like.

[6bg6ga]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDpXRuHmk1w

[6bg6ga]

My first video ever. No sound just background noise. Will try to make a better video but it proves it works. In the background you can hear when I push the button because there is a distinct click of the relay.

If I get some time tonight I will try for a higher quality video hopefully with an audio track.

[6bg6ga]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b83I_kNfDHs

[6bg6ga]

When my optical sensor arrives I will post a step by step assembly process if any are interested. Right now its on the slow boat from China.

[6bg6ga]

The other day I ordered 10) 500 ohm pots that can be used to provide speed changes to the trickler motor. If anyone is interested in a pot they will run $2.30 plus shipping. I purchased the 10 lot quantity with $6.95 shipping otherwise it was going to cost almost $2.00 for the pot and $6.95 shipping for the one pot.

If anyone is interested in a parts package let me know and I will get a quantity pricing. I would be willing to put together something that includes the relays, diodes, wire, switch, sensor, and trickler motor.

I'm going to need at least 10 people in order to get some type of price break on parts.

[1066]

Have you though about using PWM (Pulse width modulation) for speed control. It's very easy, very cheap and the motor will retain torque even down to virtually stopped. This one comes with a pot and knob and is less than $3 shipped.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-40V-10A-PWM-DC-Motor-Speed-Controller-with-Knob-LW-/182304262165?hash=item2a722e4815:g:94sAAOSwPCVX9dH Y

[6bg6ga]

That is an interesting idea. I do believe the unit would have to have a steady 12vdc input on it and you would want to switch the output via the trickler relay. I haven't played with one but I am wondering if there would be a surge once the load was connected via the relay.

My thought was to keep everything low tech keep it simple and easy. The idea certainly merits $3.00 for a try. I ordered one.

[1066]

Yes, output from the relay just straight into the PWM. There's just a +/- in, and a +/- out. The PWM's are very forgiving. That one is rated 12v-24v but I've found anything from about 8v works ok.

If you want to go even cheaper, here's one for $1.70 including shipping. HERE (http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-6V-28V-3A-PWM-Motor-Speed-Varible-Regulator-Controller-Switch/191674452885?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%2 6asc%3D41402%26meid%3Db50fd71005324d57b868df5993bc 8d59%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D1823 04262165)

or if you want to go Hi-tec, here's one with a digital display that will show motor speed (as a percentage) Just $4.80 HERE (http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-6-30V-12V-24V-MAX-8A-MOTOR-PWM-SPEED-CONTROLLER-WITH-DIGITAL-DISPLAY-SWITCH-/332081486336?hash=item4d51995a00:g:IEAAAOSwo4pYbRU D)

The digital one is the same as I use on my annealing machine. HERE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssAYLvHIw0E)

[6bg6ga]

I used the high tech ones with the digital display when I put my annealer together. Worked well.

[6bg6ga]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-G_BtYobwzw

[jmorris]

You could use a PWM and switch between two speeds you would just use two different resistors (or POT's) and switch between their input to the bord on the PWM, leaving power in/out alone.

[6bg6ga]

You could use a PWM and switch between two speeds you would just use two different resistors (or POT's) and switch between their input to the bord on the PWM, leaving power in/out alone.

Absolutely.

[jmorris]

I'm not sure why our sensors are different, but I went ahead and setup another using a easy to see "how it works" wiring that is a little different than the schematic I posted earlier but there are many ways to "skin the cat" on this one.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxPenA7c0hE

[6bg6ga]

Your video is clearly showing that your black wire from the sensor is giving a negative output. The diagram on the sensor shows a positive output that you don't clearly have. The conclusion I draw is the sensor is clearly miss-marked which frequently happens when something comes from China. I believe you have a PNP sensor and the label says NPN and that is why yours is different that mine.

[6bg6ga]

I will follow up also with a concept setup like you have done. I will incorporate relay sockets for my relays like you have done for clarity and ease of operation. My new relays are here but my sensor is still in customs so as soon as it arrives I will also mock up mine.

[6bg6ga]

189063

New sensor arrived. This one actually works like the one jmorris has. My original wouldn't drive a 12 vdc relay but this one does.

Revised schematic without any resistors or transistor.

Basically its like John's except I added another relay. As explained before mine once activated provides a contact over the start switch and maintains it until balance is made. Once balance is made the sensor activates the first relay and this drops power to the second relay providing a automatic reset.

Note*

Not going to tear the Ist sensor apart for the sake of trying to find out how it was different because it simply doesn't matter. Got it to work in the circuit I provided. If you happen to be faced with the same type of sensor (probably mismarked or maybe a hybrid) you have a schematic to follow to make it work.

[6bg6ga]

The next trick is to follow in jmorris foot steps and design a sensor stand that can be taken from scale to scale to make this even better.

[6bg6ga]

Looked thru my junk box and found a FMU motor speed control and tried it with my trickler for speed control . Also received my package of 500 ohm controls. Tried both and personally liked the rheostat better. I didn't see that the frequency modulated speed control offered me any more torque than the cheap pot did. I dialed down the speed with both and put pressure/resistance via hand pressure against the shaft. Both ways still resulted in the motor slowing down ever so slightly. So, I guess its a **** shoot at to what you want to use. I stuck with my cheap 500 ohm pot but maybe that choice isn't the best for everyone.

For me I would rather power the frequency speed modulator unit and keep it powered by 12vdc and toggle the output leads to provide the on/off control. The pot allows me to keep the wiring the same and simply insert the pot between the trickler power lead and the trickler motor.

[6bg6ga]

Work was good enough to supply me a piece of scrap aluminum in which to use as a sensor mount. Pictures when I get it done later.

[B4408]

6bg6ga, your posts inspired me to have a go at making an auto trickler. Have been playing around with it and getting parts for the last week. Took a bit of testing and head scratching to get the right relays that would work with the light sensor.
Had the same problem as you, the sensor had to low a current to operate a normal car relay. A mate suggested a solid state relay as it would operate similar to adding a transistor as you did.
It worked and I set two up to latch as you suggested.
Have it all setup and working. Will put up some pics and video after I upload them.
Thanks
Bruce

[B4408]

Some pics of my RCBS 10-10 scales with light sensor controlling a home made trickler which is powered by a 12v 30rpm motor. Very good repeatability on the light sensor for accurate weighing.:-)
Video to be uploaded.

Bruce

[B4408]

Here is a link to a video of it in action. Powder is ADI Benchmark 8208. I may have to make a slight adjustment to the sensor but it is pretty close to the right height. I am impressed at how consistent and repeatable the sensor is, more than accurate enough for me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKUYWJN23so

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKUYWJN23so

thanks 6bg6ba and jmorris

Bruce

[6bg6ga]

Here is a link to a video of it in action. Powder is ADI Benchmark 8208. I may have to make a slight adjustment to the sensor but it is pretty close to the right height. I am impressed at how consistent and repeatable the sensor is, more than accurate enough for me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKUYWJN23so

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKUYWJN23so

thanks 6bg6ba and jmorris

Bruce

Your welcome. You did a great job on your trickler.

[6bg6ga]

I like the way you adapted solid state relays to the control and your choice of a different motor. True DIY thinking. Its amazing how accurate these little guys are. Mine will throw within about 1/2 a tenth of a grain depending on the powder choice and I believe that's just as accurate if not better than the store bought units.

[B4408]

I like the way you adapted solid state relays to the control and your choice of a different motor. True DIY thinking. Its amazing how accurate these little guys are. Mine will throw within about 1/2 a tenth of a grain depending on the powder choice and I believe that's just as accurate if not better than the store bought units.

The relays work but I needed a power supply of at least 15v to get 3v from the light switch to activate them. I learnt a bit about electronics doing this project.
i agree on the +-.05gn accuracy, with most weighs +-.02. I tried a 60rpm motor and it was quicker but not as precise so went with the 30rpm. It allows the balance beam to move slower and time to react.

I tried mounting my powder thrower with extra drop tube beside the scales and drop into the pan as jmorris did but get spillage. Any suggestions on how to stop bouncing powder granules, little bits don't want to stay for the party and go bang.:p

Bruce

[6bg6ga]

Are you still at 30 rpms or did you use a pot to be able to slow it down or maybe a frequency modulated speed control?

[B4408]

Motor is rated at 30rpm@ 12v and it has about 12.5v when running at its teminals. A speed controller on the 60rpm motor would be good as I think 45rpm would be be about right, save a few seconds :lol:. Didn't have a spare speed controller in my box of bits, may try it in the future.

I don't do a lot of reloading, this was a cheap way to improve my gear and a good project to work on in the shed after work.

Bruce

[6bg6ga]

Bruce, I'm thrilled that you built the trickler and understand its merits. Its a true DIY piece thats not pretty but serves a function works well and keeps a lot of money in your pocket. Yes people have said you can buy a Xyz brand for $..... why did you make your own. Simple, a piece that costs a lot less works well and fits your needs.

John is responsible too. I came up with the idea years ago and tried to gauge interest and was shut down. I didn't or wasn't able to come up with a decent sensor that was cost efficient. John found the sensor and posted a video. My original sensor was a Honeywell two piece unit that cost in excess of $50. I bought one of the sensors John found and went to work and finished the trickler. Mine is slightly different from John's because its operated and completes a cycle with one button push.

As you have figured out it works well by simply throwing a light charge on a powder measure and then throwing less than a grain to finish with a dead on charge.

[1066]

Well done guys, you seem to have some workable systems there. I was sold on the idea of auto-tricklers around 30 years ago and been using one ever since.

Might I suggest that slight improvements could be made by A) finding a smaller sensor and B) have some means of micro adjusting the height of the sensor. I find different powders run at different rates and a bit of tweaking is sometimes necessary.

[6bg6ga]

I started with a smaller sensor and figured it wasn't worth the extra money and time to make a mount for it. Mine is well within 1/2 of a tenth of a grain and in my mind thats good enough. The thought was to make something anyone could put together. I simply attached my sensor to a piece of aluminum with epoxy and let it dry. I then used small clamps and moved the sensor mount up and down until I got it where it needed to be and drilled and tapped two holes and screwed it down.

[B4408]

1066, good to hear of your long term success with auto tricklers. Some of us are a bit late getting on board:D.
I don't know much about the light beam sensors but I think this type is proving pretty consistant and maybe the precision of the scales is as much an issue. +-.03 usually less only more when the pan is swinging.
Agree about the different types of powder affecting accuracy. I have the sensor mounted on an adjusting screw then locked with bolts but it is fiddly to do for minor adjustments. I think having a variable speed on the trickler would be an easier way to adjust for powder type, slow it down for faster trickling powders. Will add this in the future.

Bruce

[1066]

Looking at your trickler Bruce - You could place a couple of small "feet" at the front of your base plate and use a longer bolt at the rear so you could adjust the feed rate by varying the angle of the tube..Constant speed/variable angle as opposed to variable speed/constant angle.

With a good set of scales the limiting factor is often the size of the individual kernels with some powders.

[6bg6ga]

I'm sure these tricklers are going to fair well with long cylinder shaped powders the ones you need to cut with a pair of dikes. Neither do the factory type powder measure tricklers out there. On their worst day of the week they will be within .1 of a grain.

[6bg6ga]

Loaded up a bunch of 22-250's and it works great. I used H380 and figured I might have a problem because its so darn small but I cannot complain as the accuracy was in the .03 range

[jmorris]

thanks 6bg6ba and jmorris

Bruce

No problem, nice work.


Might I suggest that slight improvements could be made by A) finding a smaller sensor and B) have some means of micro adjusting the height of the sensor. I find different powders run at different rates and a bit of tweaking is sometimes necessary.

The first one I put together did have a smaller sensor but it cost more and was not any more accurate than the big yellow one.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nA0_KDjbBGQ&t=4s

I also bought a few really small nice looking ones that would do the job, just to lazy to finish the circuitry as they are just a switch.

In the end it would just be a form over function kind of thing and if you look at my photos I didn't even paint the steel plate mine is mounted to. The way something works is more important to me than how it looks when it comes to tools.

The main advantage of the large area inside the sensor is that I don't leave my scales set up all the time and the more open the sensor is the easier they are to setup and take down.

The bracket I made does have adjustment built into it a 1/4-20 all thread holds the bracket in place and there is fine adjustment between the bracket and sensor. If you look closely you can see a coil spring below the sensor in the "U", the two 10-32 bolts allow a very fine vertical adjustment.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/gn/image_zpsmvoxp8rh.jpeg

[1066]

I'm not knocking it JM, I like your work, and I must admit I hadn't seen the micro adjustment system on the yellow sensor. I made something very similar some time ago to fit directly onto the new RCBS M500 scale. It fits on using the existing screws so no scale modification necessary.

A basic slotted opto switch is just a few cents and can easily be chopped in half and spaced apart if necessary. I know it's easy to just buy something that works, and with your solid set-up, it works very well but might not work so well hanging on a 505 scale.

Here's a matched pair, 10 for $2.30 HERE (http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Pcs-1-6-Slot-PCB-Photo-Interrupter-Slotted-Optical-Switch-HY301-21-/172618166667?hash=item2830d8318b:g:zXcAAOSwnF9Y6hC O)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/allan1066/20170603_145733_zpsfoyfvupz.jpg

[jmorris]

That looks a lot like the smaller switches I have. Sometimes I am a lot like water and just take the path of least resistance.

Yours looks good though.

[6bg6ga]

I had tried a Honeywell sensor that was rather pricey. It didn't do any better for me than the sensor JM came up with. I've tried W231, H335, H110, H380, unique, and Red dot and it seems to handle them fine. Mine may not be positioned 100% but rather 99%. I'm tempted try those sensors as I also found them months ago but not having a machine shop makes it harder to do something and have a precision result.

I cannot speak for John but my opinion is the yellow sensor is easy for the average guy to work with and its cost effective. I do however like your setup with the black blade type sensor and its also cost effective. Still working on my last year I'm still finding time at a premium so I don't have a lot of time to spend making a bracket like that one. The time I can manage to come up with just barely allows me time to load up 100 rounds or so and take the wife out shooting with me.

[sphealy06]

I know this is kind of an old thread but would this sensor work in place of the optical sensor if mounted above the beam to stop the trickler? If a small bracket was made the threads on the sensor could be used to adjust the cut off level. I have no experiance with them and I don't know if the are two sensitive or not sensitive enough for this purpose or if the sensor itself would disturbe the scale.

Thankshttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180106/f077b5412ac40fc6fef40059718405c6.jpg

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[jmorris]

It might or might not, no way it would be better than the ones we are using, where we are breaking a beam of light.

[sphealy06]

It might or might not, no way it would be better than the ones we are using, where we are breaking a beam of light.I agree it's highly unlikely to be better but I was wondering if it could be a super cheap equal. For the 2 dollar price tag I may just give it a try and if it doesn't work well just swap it to your setup.


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[6bg6ga]

That is a commercial sensor that is meant to for example detect a box going down a conveyer belt typically to count the box. Usually they require more time to trigger and they AREN'T as accurate as the sensor jmorris used. My suggestion is to use the sensor that is VERY accurate and has a proven track record. The slight difference in price hopefully won't be a reason for your decision.

[1066]

You've very little to loose and it would be an interesting experiment - These sensors will reliably indicate down to a few microns, they are used regularly for automatic bed leveling on 3D printers measuring just a few thou.

The problem with a scale beam is, if you try and indicate from the side of the beam it will be imprecise because of side play on the beam. If you try to indicate of the top of the beam, the range of sensor is quite limited and it's possible it will get in the way. Maybe an extended tab on the damper blade?

[sphealy06]

I agree the cost is small so only a small amount of time will be lost if it fails to perform. The cost of the other sensor is not the problem only my curiosity.

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