44 Magnum + 296 + 305 Grain load safety question

[BNE]

I have recently started making loads with the Lee 310 grain RNFP for my 44 Mag. My bullets weigh in around 305 grains. (No Gas check used.)

I have not found exact load data for this bullet / powder combination. Not exactly...

The Hogden sight lists a 325 Gr BTB LFN GC can use up to 22.0 Grains of W 296. Is it safe to ASSUME that I am safe to work up to 22 Grains of W296 with this bullet?

Details:
S&W 29
6" barrel
Primer = WLP
Bullet is 305Gr, Powder coated.

I have shot using 19.5 grains, and it is stout, but still not getting the same velocity I was getting when I was using H110.

Thank you for your input!

[dh2]

you can use load data for a bullet a step heavier but you can not use load data for a bullet lighter than what you are loading.

My .300 Blk does not give the same speed with H110 as W296 either that is why we do latter test every time we change powder

[44man]

NO, the S&W should not be shot with more then a 265 gr boolit. It is inertia on parts, not pressure. You will peen the locking pin in the cylinder and unlock the cylinder stop.
I use the boolit in my Ruger with 21.5 gr of 296. I use a Fed 150 primer ONLY.
The S&W is tough but it does not like recoil.
You need the GC in any case for the drive length to twist rate. 1 in 18-3/4 likes long boolits but not recoil. Kind of wrong. The 29 thrives on a 250 gr to a max of 265.
Shoot too heavy and you will not open the cylinder without a hammer. The stop will come out and the cylinder will turn backwards.
The 265 RD shoots wonderful.

[BNE]

NO, the S&W should not be shot with more then a 265 gr boolit. It is inertia on parts, not pressure. You will peen the locking pin in the cylinder and unlock the cylinder stop.
I use the boolit in my Ruger with 21.5 gr of 296. I use a Fed 150 primer ONLY.
The S&W is tough but it does not like recoil.
You need the GC in any case for the drive length to twist rate. 1 in 18-3/4 likes long boolits but not recoil. Kind of wrong. The 29 thrives on a 250 gr to a max of 265.
Shoot too heavy and you will not open the cylinder without a hammer. The stop will come out and the cylinder will turn backwards.
The 265 RD shoots wonderful.

WOW. Where have I missed this information? I have only shot a handful of these, (Less than 20) but this is a little scary.

[Dale53]

Frank Siefer (a retired Lee Distributor) and I designed that bullet. I shot a limited number of those through my Smith Model 29. My load was 21.5 grs. of H110. I got reports of recoil damaged Model 29's and quit the use in my 29. I shoot that load through my Ruger Redhawk without issue but no more heavies in my Smith. My Model 29 was not damaged but I suspect further use might just do so based on accredited reports from a wide range of people I respect.

I suggest that 44Man knows whereof he speaks!

Dale53

[Lloyd Smale]

Well yes and no. To me its kind of like shooting full power 357 loads in a 19. It wont blow up and a 100 a year or so isn't going to shake apart a newer 629. Ive put at least a couple thousand 300s loaded with 21 grains of 110 along with MANY other loads with lighter bullets through my 629 and its as tight as new. Id say ive done about the same with all the 29s and 629s ive owned and never had one wear out on me yet. I have shot a 19 loose but smith rebuilt it for free. By the way they had to replace the barrel due to a worn and cracked forcing cone no doubt caused by shooting hot 125s with ball powders like 110. I would guess that shooting a bunch of hot 180s using ball powder would do more damage to your gun then shooting the 300 cast would. Like I said treat it like you would a 19 shooting 357s and it will outlive you. remember too that 29s were designed back in the day to handle factory 44 mag ammo that was loaded hotter then it is today. Then consider too that the newer 29s are more durable then the old ones.
NO, the S&W should not be shot with more then a 265 gr boolit. It is inertia on parts, not pressure. You will peen the locking pin in the cylinder and unlock the cylinder stop.
I use the boolit in my Ruger with 21.5 gr of 296. I use a Fed 150 primer ONLY.
The S&W is tough but it does not like recoil.
You need the GC in any case for the drive length to twist rate. 1 in 18-3/4 likes long boolits but not recoil. Kind of wrong. The 29 thrives on a 250 gr to a max of 265.
Shoot too heavy and you will not open the cylinder without a hammer. The stop will come out and the cylinder will turn backwards.
The 265 RD shoots wonderful.

[44man]

They had to make an ENHANCED model. Hardened lock pin and stronger cylinder stop spring. But seen the X frame double.
As I said many times, the gun will handle pressure but parts have inertia due to design.
I shot very hot loads and found the limit for straight factory guns was 265 gr.
Can you make it shoot heavier, yes if you know how.
Not early 29's unless fixed. Then a .500 that doubles. I can fix.
S&W blamed it on shooter error, double trigger pull, NOT SO. The double shot was the first chamber with a live round, load all and shoot, cylinder turned backwards to a live round and hammer bounce set it off. Once a chamber is empty it can't happen but cocking the gun will get a click since it is empty. Happened with some 29's that got a click. Never heard of one doubling but double pin strikes on primers and cases.187957 I know the Smith.
Friend bought a new .500 X frame. Every shot had the cylinder unlock so it had to be set again. He was sent a new spring free from S&W. They finally listened to me. Can I take credit? I think so. I knew what was going on and argued.
I can't argue with Lloyd, he has a newer 629. But the OP has a 29. Could I fix the gun for heavy? Sure. But S&W went to the X frame and failed. One spring. One pin. Been a gunsmith forever and know revolvers. Have to help those that don't know.

[Porterhouse]

I'm with 44man on this. I experienced exactly what he's talking about. I shoot 280gr sometimes but mostly stick with 250gr and 265gr for M29s. If you want to shoot heavier, faster bullets/boolits out of S&W platform, you need a M500. That's what I do anyways.

[Porterhouse]

Yes, inertia causes the problems associate with cylinder unlocking, endshake, etc. But one thing everyone missing is, the inertia will be deferent with different shooters. If a shooter is 300lb and strong build, hes arm would be heavy and the gun won't recoil as much as 120lb shooter with light arm.

[44man]

Yes, inertia causes the problems associate with cylinder unlocking, endshake, etc. But one thing everyone missing is, the inertia will be deferent with different shooters. If a shooter is 300lb and strong build, hes arm would be heavy and the gun won't recoil as much as 120lb shooter with light arm.
Well YES. But a gun should work with any shooter. S&W does not say you need to be 400# to shoot the gun. A 90# soaking wet should not fear it.

[Lloyd Smale]

I have shot a lot of 300s out of the older 29s and 629s ive owned. I just backed the load off to 20-21 grains. Still in the 1100 fps range and will kill anything. My first gun was an old blue 29 that I bought in the early 70s used. It had the absolute snot shot out of it. Heavy loads light loads, heavy bullets, light bullets. Used that gun so much that I had to have it blued twice. Didn't know back then that it could be shot loose because there was no internet. Funny thing is that gun is still being shot by a buddy of mine and other then rebluing has never seen a gunsmith.

I'm not going to sit here and say you cant shoot one loose. But I will sit here and say the problem is blown out of proportion. Lots of guys will tell you it can happen but very few can shot an actual example of theres that had to go back to smith and Wesson. Like I said id bet someone shooting a lot of factory ammo especially ammo from back in the 60s and 70s did more toward shortening the life of those guns that lower pressure heavy bullet cast ammo. Id also say that if you want to get that anal with your 44 you probably shouldn't be shooting ball powders at all. Something like 2400 is easier on the forcing cone. Now ive see LOTs of smith and Wesson that have real high round counts with eroded throats and even cracked forcing cones

Its your gun load it like you want but please don't tell mine that its getting abused. It might decide to protest against it. I'm sure theres lots of 29s and 629s owned by guys on here. Id love to see a couple of actual repair bills for shooting a 29 loose. I hear lots of internet theory on it. Truth be told very few people shoot ANY handgun enough to shoot it loose.

Truth be told too, you can shoot ANY handgun loose. I turned a new bisley vaquero 45 colt into about a babys rattle with MANY loads using 300 plus grain bullets using 110 at levels I wont even post here. I also shot a bank vault tight 475 linebaugh that john made to the point it was as loose as a stock ruger (my first linebaugh and in my younger and dumber days shot full power loads out of it about every day for quite a few years) Many Many thousands of heavy rounds went through that gun. John took it and rebuilt it and reblued it and Boge Quinn (jeffs brother) owns it right now. Like is said before you can add a smtih 19 to that list too.

No a 29 isn't as stoutly built as a redhawk. But its far from the made from the made out of glass reputation some want to put on it. There good sturdy guns that WILL take a sensible amount of heavy bullet loads without falling apart in your hand. Bottom line is there probably more capable of taking it then most of the guys that own them. Ill be the first to say its one of the most uncomfortable 44mags to shoot heavy bullets out of. I just as soon shoot a bisley 475 as shoot a 300 grain bullet and 22 grains of 110 out of a 4 inch 29.

[44man]

I never shot a gun "LOOSE." Lube the gun, NOT boolit lube, gun lube. Shoot dry and wear.
My SBH is well over 82,000 heavy loads with no wear. Never wore a S&W either. Funny is frame stretch, what is that? Bushing wear for end shake? How the hell would you stretch a frame?
Cleaning a gun every time it is shot is for BP. The revolvers brought here that are dead dry is crazy. Feel good stuff.
My Vaquero sees only 335 LBT's to the Lyman 320 that drops at 342 gr with 21.5 gr of 296. No wear at all because of STP.

[Lloyd Smale]

lube my guns religiously. Isnt my first rodeo. But it will add that that vaquero load you shoot is a pop gun load compared to the loads the one that ended up like a rattle shot and even today after a rebuild by clements it shoots a 320 with 24 grains of 110 which again is pop gun load compared to what it used to digest and by the way digest without one bit of indigestion. Like I said it was in my younger dumber days. bottom line is a lot of the rugers single actions that come off the assembly line could stand to be bushed before there even shot. especially the older large framed guns. Ive seen them so sloppy they sounded like a rattle right out of the box. Quality control on those full sized rugers especially the 45 colts was nothing to write home about. I picked up many of them in a gun shop that interested me and handled them for a couple seconds and handed them right back. Heck I even ordered a 4 5/8s bisley vaquero to use to build my 500 that came with the sight grove in the top strap cut from the far right side in the back to the far left side in the front. Guy that built that gun had to be high or drunk. Maybe a shoot around the corner gun!! Saw grip frames so poorly fit that they looked shifted to one side almost a 1/16 of an inch. So before you bash on smith remember your driving a ford not a Lincoln when you buy a ruger. Fit and finish on the average smith is hands down better then a ruger and like I said a 29 is far from a gun made out of glass.
I never shot a gun "LOOSE." Lube the gun, NOT boolit lube, gun lube. Shoot dry and wear.
My SBH is well over 82,000 heavy loads with no wear. Never wore a S&W either. Funny is frame stretch, what is that? Bushing wear for end shake? How the hell would you stretch a frame?
Cleaning a gun every time it is shot is for BP. The revolvers brought here that are dead dry is crazy. Feel good stuff.
My Vaquero sees only 335 LBT's to the Lyman 320 that drops at 342 gr with 21.5 gr of 296. No wear at all because of STP.

[44man]

No, I never went that hot because after 21.5 gr, accuracy started to get worse. Funny the same load works in the .44 with the 310 and 320 gr.
But I agree, the S&W is one fine gun. Burps are just small things.

[Groo]

Groo here
+1 44man!!!
Your post mirror my talks with J.D. Jones of S.S.K. [ designer of the 320 gr .44 Ram Slammer]
The original 320/44 bullet was designed to not fit the M-29 cylinder length due to short life problems [pre upgrade one's]
Also, the slower twist of the S&W required faster loads to fly true.
Also , the oil on the cylinder bushing has been told to me by more than one BIG BORE pistol builder.[acts like a shock buffer]
As with most guns the bullet length[weight] must be matched to the speed and barrel twist so that the bullet will "spin up" and fly true

[Lloyd Smale]

thing is ive known you for a long time and know that it isn't your first rodeo either and that you know the internet bs about N frames falling apart after shooting 300s is just that bull, bull **** as a matter of fact. What I don't like is that threads like this left alone let people who don't REALLY know. People who copy and paste someone elses experience that was probably a copied and pasted opinion of someone else. that's why I said that I would like to here someone that ACTUALLY shot there N frame loose. Not some second hand internet banter that's real purpose through the years was that it was used to try to make someone who doesn't have a clue look gun savoy. Like you I post with my actual experience not someone elses. Sometimes like you I get people that disagree. they say how can you be right when all over the internet its says it cant be done. Things we both know are just wrong like needing to cast soft so your bullets can "bump up" to get accuracy. that always gets me a good laugh. You and I get our answers at the range.
No, I never went that hot because after 21.5 gr, accuracy started to get worse. Funny the same load works in the .44 with the 310 and 320 gr.
But I agree, the S&W is one fine gun. Burps are just small things.

[44man]

I don't know how to hurt a S&W 29! Just 2 parts that need fixed so it will shoot any boolit.
I always had trouble finding a cylinder stop spring to work. I put a lock tumbler spring inside the original and it works. Tiny little thing, need tweezers to pick up but it takes so little. Now S&W has other springs. Call and get one free.
Now guys harden the end of the pin that unlocks the front of the cylinder---NOT GOOD. It might break, you need to harden and temper the whole pin or make a new one.
Real heavy boolits do not have more pressure, just recoil so prevent recoil damage, DARN 2 parts.
Frame stretch???? HOW, that is one tough gun. They just wore a dry gun. If you stretch a frame the cylinder should have left first.
Now there is one thing that will damage a S&W FAST. The crane is not real hard so twist the gun to slam the cylinder shut like on the movies. BAD, BAD. I fixed too many to list. Nothing to do with shooting, just stupid.
I don't even cock a SA fast because my gun must last. CA needs repairs from wear.

[BNE]

I don't know how to hurt a S&W 29! Just 2 parts that need fixed so it will shoot any boolit.
I always had trouble finding a cylinder stop spring to work. I put a lock tumbler spring inside the original and it works. Tiny little thing, need tweezers to pick up but it takes so little. Now S&W has other springs. Call and get one free.
Now guys harden the end of the pin that unlocks the front of the cylinder---NOT GOOD. It might break, you need to harden and temper the whole pin or make a new one.
Real heavy boolits do not have more pressure, just recoil so prevent recoil damage, DARN 2 parts.
Frame stretch???? HOW, that is one tough gun. They just wore a dry gun. If you stretch a frame the cylinder should have left first.
Now there is one thing that will damage a S&W FAST. The crane is not real hard so twist the gun to slam the cylinder shut like on the movies. BAD, BAD. I fixed too many to list. Nothing to do with shooting, just stupid.
I don't even cock a SA fast because my gun must last. CA needs repairs from wear.

Lloyd Smale and 44man, I have learned a lot from your input. Thank you both.

I have probably only shot 12 or so out of my gun that were 305 grains and had 20.5 grains of 296. It works fine now.....But I prefer to never have it fail.

44man, do you have the springs and or could you show us how you modify?

[44man]

Lloyd Smale and 44man, I have learned a lot from your input. Thank you both.

I have probably only shot 12 or so out of my gun that were 305 grains and had 20.5 grains of 296. It works fine now.....But I prefer to never have it fail.

44man, do you have the springs and or could you show us how you modify?
I don't have springs to fit and S&W now offers different ones free. I did a lot of locksmith work and have tumbler springs that fit inside the spring to add some more pressure. It does not take much.
Most of the S&W problems were spring suppliers, some guns never failed with regular loads. Some did and just the spring. Need to keep the lock into the cylinder notch under recoil. If you shot heavy without a problem, you are OK.

[6pt-sika]

Lyman 320 that drops at 342 gr

Is that the 429649 mold ?

[44man]

Is that the 429649 mold ?
No, .45 Colt boolit, 452651. Supposed to be 325 gr instead of 320. I made a mistake above.
For the .44 the Lee 310 is a good one. C430-310-RF. I use 21.5 gr of 296 with both calibers.

[44man]

Actually the 29 has a 1 in 18-3/4" twist and shoots best with a 250 gr boolit and up. Should handle a 300 + very well if you fix parts. I never had a problem with 240 Hornady's but I could see over spin rotate the boolit path around the flight line.
Sane loads with a 310 gr are the same pressure as a 240. Just recoil thump to fix.