Unsuccessful with my "New" 310 Tool

[DonMountain]

In my attempts to "collect" an Ideal 310 Loading tool that I could actually use to reload cartridges for one of my old rifles, I finally hit a snag. I bought one of the easier to get older steel Ideal 310 tools with a die set for the 30-06 to try reloading cartridges for my Springfield rifle. When I discovered that I also needed a full length resizing die in order to use some once-fired brass my brother gave to me, I bought one of the drive-in, drive-out type that Lyman used to make. And thats where the problems developed with this whole affair. I cleaned out the "new" resizing die with some turpentine and blew it out with the air gun to clean it, then liberally coated the first 30-06 casing with Hornady "Unique" case lube and tried tapping the casing into the die. Well, it didn't go in very far, so I got a pipe clamp and just got it all the way in with much force on the turning screw. The book shows them using a vice for this job. Then I started trying to drive out the casing with the steel rod included with the resizing die. I cut a block of oak wood to set the resizing die on top of, with a 1/2" hole drilled into it to receive the casing. I used another oak block on top of the steel ejection rod. Well, I finally had to resort to a 4 pound hammer and set it on the concrete floor to get that 30-06 casing out of there. It did come out in one piece, but the steel rod deformed the bottom of the casing, closing up the primer hole. I tried a couple more of these cases in my normal bench press reloading dies and they were tight, but not extroadinarly so. But now I have noticed that most of these resizing dies being sold on our favorite auction site have these rods pretty well banged up on one end. So, should I just hang this old Ideal 310 tool on the wall to look at, or am I doing something wrong, or is reloading with a normal bench mounted reloading press just to easy? [smilie=b: Or should I order a new set of unfired brass and just use the neck sizer in the Ideal 310 tool set and keep these with that one rifle forevermore?

[Bent Ramrod]

I would suggest that you full-length size your gifted brass with your press and die set, fire them in your rifle, and afterwards neck size them in your 310 tool until continued firing in your gun makes them sticky and hard to chamber. Then try the drive-in and -out FLS die to bring them back to the original dimensions.

These things were not designed, even in the old days, for the processing of quantities of picked-up brass from who-knows-what miscellaneous sources. The Ideal Armory Press, which full length resized the cases, was what the National Guard unit, for instance, would use to remanufacture the whole unit's fired brass into new cartridges the whole unit could shoot again. Your little setup was made for the guy who bought 20 or 50 factory rounds, fired them in his own rifle, and wanted to save money reloading.

Many of the old time cartridge cases that these tools were made for were of thinner brass than we are used to now. The complaints we hear about the fragility of the .44-40 case are what used to be characteristic of almost all of the cases somebody with these tools would be reloading. The heavier cases for the higher-intensity smokeless rounds of 1894 and afterwards would make them harder to process through these little hand tools.

There is also an outside chance that your die is undersized. I have one so made in .30-30. I can get the shell in and out without the damage you report, but it is obvious that the reamer used to make the die was sharpened again after it had been sharpened below minimum dimensions.

Things like this are attributes of obsolescence, the manufacture getting sloppier as the demand for the item dwindles to zero. Before the calibers were "revived," I used to find as-new-in-box unprimed .32-20 brass of different lengths from box to box, and all under the nominal "standard" length. .25-20 Single Shot brass had off-center flash holes and other problems. Maybe the manufacturer figured the more dissatisfied the few remaining customers got, the quicker he could close out the line that wasn't selling enough to make him any money.

Also, try Imperial Sizing Lube. For critical resizing of expensive shells and case forming, it's the only stuff I use.

[skeettx]

OK,
1. After you cleaned the die, you should have seasoned it with Imperial Sizing Wax
2. Lube your brass with Imperial Sizing Wax
3. Have friend size the brass the first time on a big press
4. New brass is always good but used is cheaper :)
5. Make a new drive rod
Mike

[BrassMagnet]

I would suggest that you full-length size your gifted brass with your press and die set, fire them in your rifle, and afterwards neck size them in your 310 tool until continued firing in your gun makes them sticky and hard to chamber. Then try the drive-in and -out FLS die to bring them back to the original dimensions.

These things were not designed, even in the old days, for the processing of quantities of picked-up brass from who-knows-what miscellaneous sources. The Ideal Armory Press, which full length resized the cases, was what the National Guard unit, for instance, would use to remanufacture the whole unit's fired brass into new cartridges the whole unit could shoot again. Your little setup was made for the guy who bought 20 or 50 factory rounds, fired them in his own rifle, and wanted to save money reloading.

Many of the old time cartridge cases that these tools were made for were of thinner brass than we are used to now. The complaints we hear about the fragility of the .44-40 case are what used to be characteristic of almost all of the cases somebody with these tools would be reloading. The heavier cases for the higher-intensity smokeless rounds of 1894 and afterwards would make them harder to process through these little hand tools.

There is also an outside chance that your die is undersized. I have one so made in .30-30. I can get the shell in and out without the damage you report, but it is obvious that the reamer used to make the die was sharpened again after it had been sharpened below minimum dimensions.

Things like this are attributes of obsolescence, the manufacture getting sloppier as the demand for the item dwindles to zero. Before the calibers were "revived," I used to find as-new-in-box unprimed .32-20 brass of different lengths from box to box, and all under the nominal "standard" length. .25-20 Single Shot brass had off-center flash holes and other problems. Maybe the manufacturer figured the more dissatisfied the few remaining customers got, the quicker he could close out the line that wasn't selling enough to make him any money.

Also, try Imperial Sizing Lube. For critical resizing of expensive shells and case forming, it's the only stuff I use.

Please copy this and paste it in the 310 Sticky!
This is great info!

[BrassMagnet]

OK,
1. After you cleaned the die, you should have seasoned it with Imperial Sizing Wax
2. Lube your brass with Imperial Sizing Wax
3. Have friend size the brass the first time on a big press
4. New brass is always good but used is cheaper :)
5. Make a new drive rod
Mike

This is great advice I will use. Please copy it into the 310 Sticky.

[BrassMagnet]

In my attempts to "collect" an Ideal 310 Loading tool that I could actually use to reload cartridges for one of my old rifles, I finally hit a snag. I bought one of the easier to get older steel Ideal 310 tools with a die set for the 30-06 to try reloading cartridges for my Springfield rifle. When I discovered that I also needed a full length resizing die in order to use some once-fired brass my brother gave to me, I bought one of the drive-in, drive-out type that Lyman used to make. And thats where the problems developed with this whole affair. I cleaned out the "new" resizing die with some turpentine and blew it out with the air gun to clean it, then liberally coated the first 30-06 casing with Hornady "Unique" case lube and tried tapping the casing into the die. Well, it didn't go in very far, so I got a pipe clamp and just got it all the way in with much force on the turning screw. The book shows them using a vice for this job. Then I started trying to drive out the casing with the steel rod included with the resizing die. I cut a block of oak wood to set the resizing die on top of, with a 1/2" hole drilled into it to receive the casing. I used another oak block on top of the steel ejection rod. Well, I finally had to resort to a 4 pound hammer and set it on the concrete floor to get that 30-06 casing out of there. It did come out in one piece, but the steel rod deformed the bottom of the casing, closing up the primer hole. I tried a couple more of these cases in my normal bench press reloading dies and they were tight, but not extroadinarly so. But now I have noticed that most of these resizing dies being sold on our favorite auction site have these rods pretty well banged up on one end. So, should I just hang this old Ideal 310 tool on the wall to look at, or am I doing something wrong, or is reloading with a normal bench mounted reloading press just to easy? [smilie=b: Or should I order a new set of unfired brass and just use the neck sizer in the Ideal 310 tool set and keep these with that one rifle forevermore?

How much brass is involved?

[DonMountain]

How much brass is involved?

There are 61 cases of mixed headstamp commercial brass. And looking through them found 3 with unfired primers still crimped in them.

[DonMountain]

There is also an outside chance that your die is undersized. I have one so made in .30-30. I can get the shell in and out without the damage you report, but it is obvious that the reamer used to make the die was sharpened again after it had been sharpened below minimum dimensions.


Also, try Imperial Sizing Lube. For critical resizing of expensive shells and case forming, it's the only stuff I use.

I also suspected that the reamer used to make the Lyman resizing die I have was worn out. I remember a lot of stories about Lyman's workmanship on various reloading tools they made back in this era was not good. I will try some other brass that was fired in this gun and see what happens.

[Teddy (punchie)]

Maybe give this a try , try to feed them (fired cases) in the rifle that you are going to use them in (before loading). Now understand that you better have a rod to drive the casing back out of the chamber. As it may get stuck in the chamber. This was my plan if ever of and had to use casings not fire from a rifle I may be using a 310 tool on. Use only a light oil or grease. Not sure it will work but it was my plan, if I at the time had no Full Length Resizing Die. Some actions are good enough that the feeding and if your hands are strong enough they will drive the case in to be fired, but some are not.

[DonMountain]

OK,
1. After you cleaned the die, you should have seasoned it with Imperial Sizing Wax
2. Lube your brass with Imperial Sizing Wax
3. Have friend size the brass the first time on a big press
4. New brass is always good but used is cheaper :)
5. Make a new drive rod
Mike

How big of a press do I need? I could put my normal 30-06 sizing die in my RCBS AmmoMaster. But I did resize the casing with my Pacific 00-7 press and dies before I tried resizing again in the Lyman drive-in die. The 00-7 press didn't have any difficulties resizing the brass before I tried the same brass in the Lyman. And I didn't damage the original driving rod for the Lyman drive-in resizer. I protected it with a wood block and hit the wood block with a hammer. When I received the Lyman die and rod they looked brand new and unused.

[Teddy (punchie)]

Maybe the old Lyman vise FL sizing die only do a little at a time not the whole distance at once. I use an thin oil and graphite for all my sizing. something sounds a little odd. Maybe the chamber the bass you got was oversized.


We had 280 rifle once that we could not reload for. It would not chamber the reloads. ???? Only rifle we ever had trouble ???? we sold it to a local gun store. RCBS new dies and tried everything we could to find trouble ?????

[BrassMagnet]

PM sent.

[Bent Ramrod]

If the Lyman/Ideal hand die is a good one, a light coating of lube on the shell should be all you need. You should be able to tap the case into the die with a plastic mallet (or a metal hammer with a wood block, or with wooden jaws in a vise) and get it out the same way using the ejector rod without any extraordinary effort.

Am I correct in my reading that you resized a case in your full length die in your Pacific press and then tried it in the hand die and it still didn't go in and out easily? You ought to measure the dimensions of a case you full length size in your Pacific press vs. the one you got out of your hand die. That will give the best idea of what is wrong.

If you found a couple cases with crimped in primers, that sounds like military brass to me. If the rounds were fired in a non-custom "Black Rifle," there's no telling what shape they are in. The main application for such rifles do not include generating reloadable brass; reliable ejection is much more important.

[Char-Gar]

I have about 40 of these Lyman Shell Resizers in various calibers. They work just fine. I don't bang on things with hammer, mallets and such. I use a Harbor Freight 1 ton arbor press to cases in and press them out. did fit a handle about one foot longer to make the task easier. Of course a good lube is necessary, I use Imperial Case Sizing wax.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

+1 on Char-Gar's post. I've got a drawer full of them, and they're no more difficult to use that the one's that come with a Lee Loader set.

The original instructions say to "coat the case with a light coat of oil." The reason that many of them that are being sold have mushroomed and bent rods is either because they were used and used, or that the user occasionally forgot to apply the oil.

Is the inside of the die highly polished?

Then, there is the obvious question (when all else fails one must consider the least likely answer) is the die actually a .30-06 die? I have seen some that are not caliber stamped, and the possibility that one could be mis-stamped with the wrong designation is not impossible. Even less likely, but possible, is the brass actually .30-06 brass. The headstamp may say that it is, but it may have been formed into something else before you got it.

There is just no way that you should have the difficulty you have described if it is the proper die, nicely polished inside, case is lubed, and the brass is actually the proper cartridge case. Lyman-Ideal did not sell a 4 lb. hammer with the tool.

[DonMountain]

I went through the 30-06 brass after I had run them through the bench press mounted full-length sizing die, and measured the base of the casings just above the rim. And 5 of them were 0.003" to 0.004" larger than all the rest. And I could still see a slight bulge in those cases. I have not tried putting them in the rifle yet as has been suggested. But I think now I have come to the conclusion that some of these cases had been fired in a rifle with an out-of-spec chamber. So large that the casings were somewhat hard to resize on the bench press, and very difficult to resize with the Lyman sizing die. So, I have come to the conclusion that I need to purchase some new, unfired casings to use with the "new" 310 tool and Lyman sizing die. So I can put away that 4 pound hammer. I still need to see if these sized casings will fit in my rifle too. And since I am going to the store for new 30-06 casings I might as well get some of the Imperial sizing wax to see if that is any better than my old Hornady Unique sizing wax. Especially since that tub is getting so old.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

You, Sir, are a perceptive and honest person, and I think your analysis and conclusions are correct.

[Char-Gar]

I went through the 30-06 brass after I had run them through the bench press mounted full-length sizing die, and measured the base of the casings just above the rim. And 5 of them were 0.003" to 0.004" larger than all the rest. And I could still see a slight bulge in those cases. I have not tried putting them in the rifle yet as has been suggested. But I think now I have come to the conclusion that some of these cases had been fired in a rifle with an out-of-spec chamber. So large that the casings were somewhat hard to resize on the bench press, and very difficult to resize with the Lyman sizing die. So, I have come to the conclusion that I need to purchase some new, unfired casings to use with the "new" 310 tool and Lyman sizing die. So I can put away that 4 pound hammer. I still need to see if these sized casings will fit in my rifle too. And since I am going to the store for new 30-06 casings I might as well get some of the Imperial sizing wax to see if that is any better than my old Hornady Unique sizing wax. Especially since that tub is getting so old.

All to often a bench press, sizing dies and shell holder don't produce full length sized cases of correct headspace. The press has some slop in the linkage and the dies and shell holders are mas produced items and some are out of spec.

For every caliber I reload, I have a Wilson case gage, which shows me the headspace and the case length. With this gage, I can see if my cases are sized to correct specs and if they need to be trimed to a uniform length.

[DonMountain]

All to often a bench press, sizing dies and shell holder don't produce full length sized cases of correct headspace. The press has some slop in the linkage and the dies and shell holders are mas produced items and some are out of spec.

For every caliber I reload, I have a Wilson case gage, which shows me the headspace and the case length. With this gage, I can see if my cases are sized to correct specs and if they need to be trimed to a uniform length.

I agree and also noticed when I was resizing these cases that the normal bench mounted reloading dies don't actually resize all the way to the base of the casing like the Ideal/Lyman ones do. And that is where I ran into trouble. Just in the last 1/4" of sizing, and the first 1/4" of getting them back out of the die. So, I think I will have much better luck with some new cases. Then we will see what happens. Now I need to take a look at the Ideal No. 3 tool that I have for 32-40 and see what I can do with that one. If I can find some cases somewhere?

[BrassMagnet]

I agree and also noticed when I was resizing these cases that the normal bench mounted reloading dies don't actually resize all the way to the base of the casing like the Ideal/Lyman ones do. And that is where I ran into trouble. Just in the last 1/4" of sizing, and the first 1/4" of getting them back out of the die. So, I think I will have much better luck with some new cases. Then we will see what happens. Now I need to take a look at the Ideal No. 3 tool that I have for 32-40 and see what I can do with that one. If I can find some cases somewhere?

Is that a hint?

[Green Frog]

I agree and also noticed when I was resizing these cases that the normal bench mounted reloading dies don't actually resize all the way to the base of the casing like the Ideal/Lyman ones do. And that is where I ran into trouble. Just in the last 1/4" of sizing, and the first 1/4" of getting them back out of the die. So, I think I will have much better luck with some new cases. Then we will see what happens. Now I need to take a look at the Ideal No. 3 tool that I have for 32-40 and see what I can do with that one. If I can find some cases somewhere?

It would appear that we are "between runs" of 32-40 brass from Winchester (who AFAIK is the only factory making it now.). Never fear though, it is easy to reform 38-55 brass, readily available from StarLine, into 32-40 specs. I've done it on a standard press using the regular FL sizing die from my 7/8 x 14 die set and making about two or three short passes to avoid grease dimples. I can tell you that the 310 tool will do a fine job with the resulting altered (or original) brass. Most of the loaded ammo I have shot in my original high wall has been made using those same little dies in a TruLine Jr press... the results were gratifying! :mrgreen:

Froggie

[beagle]

Ah! Someone else got bit. There I was with a new Lyman Ammunition Maker kit and a M1903A3 from the NRA. Bullets cast and sized in the sizing chamber. Cases carefully cleaned and sized in the 310 dies. Powder carefully weighed and loaded, 311291 loaded and seated and headed for the range. Man, this is great. I can do this. At my sand pit range, I loaded a round, attempted to close the bolt. NOT!!!! My cases had been fired in Garands, Browning MGs and probably BARs and were scrounged from the local military. No one told me about FL resizing and I was an ignorant 16 year old. Lucky I found a mentor with a FL sizing setup and he educated me on that point but I was a disappointed puppy that day and my bubble of enthusiasm had temporarily been burst that day on the subject of reloading. Fortunately, I learned a great lesson from that mistake./beagle

[DonMountain]

Ah! Someone else got bit. There I was with a new Lyman Ammunition Maker kit and a M1903A3 from the NRA. Bullets cast and sized in the sizing chamber. Cases carefully cleaned and sized in the 310 dies. Powder carefully weighed and loaded, 311291 loaded and seated and headed for the range. Man, this is great. I can do this. At my sand pit range, I loaded a round, attempted to close the bolt. NOT!!!! My cases had been fired in Garands, Browning MGs and probably BARs and . . . . /beagle

Well today I stopped by Midway and picked up 100 brand new 30-06 Winchester cases, I have 200 311291's sized at 0.310". And a can of 2F black powder to use in these cartridges for that antique M1903A3 I got from my grandmother after my grandfather died about 20 years ago. And my 310 tool all cleaned up and ready to reload!

[Pavogrande]

Did I miss something? why are you using black powder in an 03a3?
I also resent you calling it an antique -- it is at least ten years younger than I -

[Char-Gar]

Well today I stopped by Midway and picked up 100 brand new 30-06 Winchester cases, I have 200 311291 (tel:200 311291)'s sized at 0.310". And a can of 2F black powder to use in these cartridges for that antique M1903A3 I got from my grandmother after my grandfather died about 20 years ago. And my 310 tool all cleaned up and ready to reload!

You are joking about using black powder in the O3A3 right? If not you are not going to be happy.

[DonMountain]

Did I miss something? why are you using black powder in an 03a3?
I also resent you calling it an antique -- it is at least ten years younger than I -

I apologize for implying that you are an antique and actually plan to use up some older tin cans of IMR-4320 and IMR-4350 that I have had laying around for too long. I recently finished up some of those tin cans of IMR-4064 and W-760 that were all kind of getting rusted looking. And replace them with the newer plastic bottles they have been selling for the last 10 years. About 20 years ago I had switched to shooting all lead projectiles and stopped using the powders more useful for jacketed bullets. So, I have been burning lots of IMR-4895, IMR-4198, SR-4759 (which I can't seem to find anymore), 2400 and faster powders like that. And also a bunch of shotgun powders like PROMO for trap shooting the 12 gauge.

[Pavogrande]

I intended a smiley after that -- tough to get antique :-)

[bedbugbilly]

I've been using 310 tools for quite while when I want to get nostalgic and be a little different. I usually use them for 38 Colt Short & Long & Special, 45 Colt & Schofield and for my 8 X 57 (8mm Mauser) nd 30-30.

I'm only loading 8mm in cat sneeze loads for the old GEW98 but here is what I learned through trial and error.

Since most of my 8mm (bottleneck the same as your 30-06) is once fired - in what is unknown - I always full length size the brass in my standard press with a good FL die. After that, all I do is "neck size" the casing with the 310 tool and a neck sizing die. All the rest of the operations I do with the 310 tool. The same with my 30-30.

Even if you load them with normal loads, as long as they are shot in the same rifle, they should work just fine if only neck sized since they have conformed to the chamber of the rifle. If you have more than one rifle - separate and label your brass for use in a particular rifle.

Remember that die sets were made for the tongs and die sets were made for the Tru-line presses. Yes, most will interchange but I have run across several FL sizing dies for the 30-06 that were used in a Tru-line press. Ho common they are, I don't know. Don't give up on the 310 tool and dies. I have had to "assemble" some die sets and even have altered some dies to get what I need to work for what I'm doing. - 38 Colt Short is one of them.

I try to get the older steel tongs - I hate the aluminum ones with the various inserts as they aren't that strong. When looking for a set to use for 30-06, remember that any steel tong made for a cartridge with the same base size/style should work. The 30-06 and 8mm tongs are interchangeable. The steel tongs I use for my 8mm Mauser are tamped 30-06.

As far as the old Lyman drive in whack a sizer dies - I have them for all the cartridges I have 310 dies for - why? I don't know as I have never had much luck with them. If I need to FL size any cartridge, I use a standard press and FL die. Even on straight walled pistol cartridges, if fired in the same revolver. all that should be needed is to neck size.

Good luck and don't give up on it - there is nothing more satisfying than producing good loads made by hand on a 310 tool or an old Ideal tong loader.

[DonMountain]

I intended a smiley after that -- tough to get antique :-)

As long as we all keep active shooting and doing other things to enjoy the outdoors we will avoid the approaching problems the younger generation seems to be conflicted with in all of their sitting around playing with their cell phones and getting fat and lazy. My mother keeps wanting me to come over and take her and her bass boat out fishing because she says that she is having trouble backing it into the water and launching it at her age (she is 92). So keep up the shooting and fishing! It will make you last longer. :D

[bedbugbilly]

DonMountain - Good for your mother and good for you! I know a lot of 90 something year olds that act like they are 18 and stay active everyday . . . . and I know a lot of 18 year olds that act like they are in their 90s! Many of them can't look up from their cell phones long enough to see the beauty of what God has created for us . . . sad.

[Pavogrande]

well I am thankful for my 11 year old grandson helping me with the blessed cell phone --
i just wanted a phone but the darn thing does everything but the washing --

[TNsailorman]

I guess I am one of those "antiques" but man Have I had fun getting here. I can remember a lot of things that I wish were true these days but aren't. One being, that in the older days, one could send a 1903 Springfield rifle to the Springfield Armory and get it reworked for practically nothing. If you had a low numbered action, they would replace it with a brand new high numbered action. Shotgun shell were .50 a box at full retail stores. And Sears actually sold houses in kit form. Here I go down memory lane again. james

[DonMountain]

I guess I am one of those "antiques" but man Have I had fun getting here. I can remember a lot of things that I wish were true these days but aren't. One being, that in the older days, one could send a 1903 Springfield rifle to the Springfield Armory and get it reworked for practically nothing. If you had a low numbered action, they would replace it with a brand new high numbered action. Shotgun shell were .50 a box at full retail stores. And Sears actually sold houses in kit form. Here I go down memory lane again. james

Thats funny you should mention the Sears houses. My 92 year old bass boat fishing Mother still lives in the Sears house that was built in the 20's. The one I grew up in. The original previous owners who had it built told us they had brought it by rail to the local freight yard and a local builder went up with a tractor and hay wagons and stacked up all the pieces and brought them out to the farm where they built it on a cinder block foundation they had constructed. My parents bought it in 1958. And I think the original booklet of Sears house plans is still in the attic somewhere.

[Char-Gar]

Thats funny you should mention the Sears houses. My 92 year old bass boat fishing Mother still lives in the Sears house that was built in the 20's. The one I grew up in. The original previous owners who had it built told us they had brought it by rail to the local freight yard and a local builder went up with a tractor and hay wagons and stacked up all the pieces and brought them out to the farm where they built it on a cinder block foundation they had constructed. My parents bought it in 1958. And I think the original booklet of Sears house plans is still in the attic somewhere.

Somewhere, where it doesn't show, there is a number stamped on every board and timber that corresponds with the numbers on the plans. Identical boards have identical numbers.

[DonMountain]

Somewhere, where it doesn't show, there is a number stamped on every board and timber that corresponds with the numbers on the plans. Identical boards have identical numbers.

Now you have peaked my interest in the Sears house. I happen to be going to visit my Mother in a week for her birthday. Its an 1100 mile ride from Mid-Missouri where I live, so I plan to stay for a week. I will see what I can find and take a closer look at the house. I know about 20 years ago they took the back wall out of it and extended the house for a larger kitchen and dining room/bathroom combination on the first floor. I designed the steel work for the wall removal, but I wasn't there when the contractor (their next door neighbor) took out the back wall and did the construction. I will ask my brother and my Mother what they remember about the numbers.