GP100 44 special strength .

[Bill1944]

I believe the gp100 is a strong gun.
how strong is the question?
please don't waste my time and yours with posting - get a 44 mag.
Ross ,Elmer, and Skeeter pushed the 44 special. Oops forgot Brian.
I read somewhere th 44 cylinders were as thick as the 357s.
I am thinking wide metplate , 250 to 280grains pig load.
with enough speed to push that bullet.
decided to buy now in case ruger only does a short run of these.
so 25000?

[shoot-n-lead]

Good luck.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

I don't know but someone has to find out... Just be careful...

[rintinglen]

25,000 psi might be stretching things, I am not sure. What we need are some measurements, Specifically, cylinder chamber wall thickness at the thinnest point, forcing cone thickness, top strap width and thickness. With these in hand we can get a better idea of what we are looking at.

I have a S&W M-69 which is rated for 44 magnum and the relevant measurements are: cylinder wall, .067"; forcing cone .076; top strap .657 w x .144 h (at edge). I am sure that the same metal and heat treatment goes into the 44 special GP 100 frames as goes into the .357 ones. If so, then the 44 specials should be amply strong for Brian Pearce's 22,000 psi, level 2 loads.

I'm thinking the Skeeter load, which runs about 18,000 psi from a revolver and gives about 950 fps with the 429-421 would be an excellent match for this gun. (Ive run hundreds through my BH flat top where it is my most favored load.) I also suspect that Power Pistol at the same pressure might give another 50-70 fps. 15.5 grains of 2400 might also be pretty good with the grand old 250 grain SWC. All of these would be in the 900-1,025 fps range from that short, 3 inch barrel and would serve as an excellent all purpose load. I dare say that something along the lines of a 429-667 would do about as well.

[reddog81]

It's going to be impossible to know the limits you seek. Ruger might know the answer but surely won't disclose that. Measurements of the cylinder and frame would be a start but without know the exact materials used and the heat treating used the safest guess would be to stick to .44 Special loads.

I wouldn't be surprised if 25000 loads were perfectly suitable and would provide reliable long term use. I'd even bet that the gun could see limited use of mid-range Magnum loads without damage, however I'm not going to recommended trying it. Any answer I give or anyone else gives is only a guess.

[Walkingwolf]

I believe the gp100 is a strong gun.
how strong is the question?
please don't waste my time and yours with posting - get a 44 mag.
Ross ,Elmer, and Skeeter pushed the 44 special. Oops forgot Brian.
I read somewhere th 44 cylinders were as thick as the 357s.
I am thinking wide metplate , 250 to 280grains pig load.
with enough speed to push that bullet.
decided to buy now in case ruger only does a short run of these.
so 25000?

I believe both Skeeter, and Kieth blew up a few N Frame 44 specials. My understanding is the barrel threads are the same size as the 357 making for thinner forcing cone. Smith intentionally made the threaded portion thicker on the 69, compared to the 696 which had problems with split forcing cones. Another problem is the GP six shot has offset cylinder stop notches, which in a five shot the notches are over thinner cylinder than the 357. The Smith 686 six shot the cylinder notches are over a thin area of the cylinder, but not on the 69 because of the odd number capacity. Now enter the 686 plus, which is probably stronger than the 686.

If you blow up the GP Ruger will probably warranty it. Fingers, and eyes do not fall under warranty. IMO hot 44 special ammo should be used on a limited basis, hunting, or self defense.

[Bill1944]

need measurements of 357 and the 44.
Even if we took 15 or 20% of the 357 what would that leave us.
In looking at the 45 colt to 44 mag, they took 10%

[Walkingwolf]

need measurements of 357 and the 44.
Even if we took 15 or 20% of the 357 what would that leave us.
In looking at the 45 colt to 44 mag, they took 10%

I pulled this from Handloads.com, not sure if it can be verified without digging through the writings of Kieth, or Skeeter.


I have read that when Speer tested Keith's load it measured 27,000 PSI. That is well above the 15,500 PSI specified by SAAMI for a standard 44 Special, but still only approximately 2/3 the pressure that maximum level magnum loads generate.

[Bill1944]

I agree with limited use. For me pigs only
250gr at 1200
I believe Ross S. Got 300 gr at 9 something

[Forrest r]

Interesting reading to say the least.

The keith/27,00spi thing you got going on is all dis-combobulated. What it should read is when they tested the "LOADS" for the old style balloon headed cases in modern cases they found that the Keith load was 27,000psi.

That same Keith load in balloon headed cases is 20,000psi.

There's a link on this website that has been here since 2012 that has the nra test data from the 1950's showing the Keith load data along with the pressures of the loads using both modern and balloon headed cases.

Good luck getting 1200fps from a 250gr bullet in a 3" bbl'd revolver. I can see why your asking how strong the rugers are.

[shoot-n-lead]

Interesting reading to say the least.

The keith/27,00spi thing you got going on is all dis-combobulated. What it should read is when they tested the "LOADS" for the old style balloon headed cases in modern cases they found that the Keith load was 27,000psi.

That same Keith load in balloon headed cases is 20,000psi.

There's a link on this website that has been here since 2012 that has the nra test data from the 1950's showing the Keith load data along with the pressures of the loads using both modern and balloon headed cases.

Good luck getting 1200fps from a 250gr bullet in a 3" bbl'd revolver. I can see why your asking how strong the rugers are.

X 2

Geez...does this insanity ever end?

[Bill1944]

Think I may need a 5.5 bisley and a gp100

[Catshooter]

To put some perspective onto your "250 @ 1200" idea, I have chronographed Elmers load of 22 grains of 2400 under his 250 out of a three inch 629 (.44 Mag of course). I got just over 1250 fps average.

With some recoil too.


Cat

[dougader]

Interesting reading to say the least.

The keith/27,00spi thing you got going on is all dis-combobulated. What it should read is when they tested the "LOADS" for the old style balloon headed cases in modern cases they found that the Keith load was 27,000psi.

That same Keith load in balloon headed cases is 20,000psi.

There's a link on this website that has been here since 2012 that has the nra test data from the 1950's showing the Keith load data along with the pressures of the loads using both modern and balloon headed cases.

Good luck getting 1200fps from a 250gr bullet in a 3" bbl'd revolver. I can see why your asking how strong the rugers are.

You're comparing balloon head cases to balloon head cases here. Typo?

Pearce included the 696 in his 25k psi data, but in a later article mentioned the thin forcing cone that might crack with continued use of these loads. While the Ruger GP100 44 spl might be stronger than the 696, but looking at the forcing cone you'll see it's a bit thin, too.

I'd tone the loads down a bit, and use them sparingly.

[Walkingwolf]

I agree with limited use. For me pigs only
250gr at 1200
I believe Ross S. Got 300 gr at 9 something

I am throwing 300 grain at 1200fps out of a 4.75 barrel Taylor's/Pietta 1873 using W296. You should be able to get 1200fps easy using a 44 mag at 5.5. I carry the model 21 for SD open carry with a plus P 200 grain load, but the 1873 is used for woods.

Something to keep in mind is that balloon cases have higher volume than later style cases, but they are weaker. Less volume means one should use less powder than for balloon cases. Much like 38 super cases compared to 9X23 cases, powder charges must consider the volume change of the case.

[DougGuy]

I am throwing 300 grain at 1200fps out of a 4.75 barrel Taylor's/Pietta 1873 using W296. You should be able to get 1200fps easy using a 44 mag at 5.5.

Whoa that is a LOTTA pressure on that Italian clone! You are most definitely over any 25kpsi by now. You are fully into the Ruger Only loadings for 45 Colt with 296. Is this a 44 magnum Pietta?

He is talking about a 3" 44 Special, how did 5.5" 44 magnum get into the convo?

OP I had another thread asking for cylinder measurements and we got to the point where the 5 shot GP100-44 cylinder is actually thicker than the 6 shot Flattop Blackhawk 44 Special so going by the fact that a Flattop Blackhawk, medium framed Blackhawk in 45 Colt is good to 23kpsi (45 ACP+P pressure) and the 44 Special is slightly smaller so cylinder measurements are slightly thicker for the 44 as compared to the 45, it would seem that the 44 Special in the flattop would be good to 25kpsi, and if the GP100-44 cylinder walls are actually thicker, then I would say 250gr @ 1200fps from a 5 1/2" barrel would be doable and still under the 25kpsi pressure ceiling, but I don't know about reaching 1200fps from a 3" barrel and still staying under 25kpsi.

I have a medium framed Vaquero with 5 1/2" barrel chambered to 45 Schofield, very similar in size to the 44 Special, and I got a 250gr LBT WFN to 1200fps over 21.5gr H110 and QL said the pressures were under 23kpsi, shooting it seemed to confirm what QL said, recoil was snappy and quick but not sharp, brass extracted easily and no pressure signs on the primers. This would be a good load for deer, black bear, or hogs up to 300lbs.

[Bill1944]

Even 1050 to 1100 would make a pig load.

[6bg6ga]

Bill1944,

My father had a really nice K38 S&W when he was alive. He always wanted a 357. He used to push the limits of that S&W with every round trying to get close to the velocity and power of the 357 that he didn't have. He was a great reloader that could see pressure signs and thankfully didn't blow up the gun dispite some of his loads being on the do not do list in todays world. What I'm getting at is don't rely on how good that little Ruger may or may not be because it only takes one round to separate you from your Ruger. Forget about your quest to see just how good the Ruger is unless you have enough funds for another Ruger laying around. My suggestin that you won't want to hear is purchase a different gun that will actually fit your needs for what you have in mind.

[smkummer]

Think I may need a 5.5 bisley and a gp100

Why yes you may. The short GP100 in 44 special is a good holster carry SD gun, that if needed would work with a bullet going out at a reasonable 9-950 FPS for encounters with 4 legged as well as 2 legged targets. Sometimes we want a gun to do everything when in fact you may only use it for hunting once or twice. That is still a lot of punch on a 2 legged target at close range and your getting into the noticeable recoil range of that gun although I have yet to fire a GP100 44 special. If I were to purposely hunt, the bisley 44 special or mag. would be better with the longer sight radius and the fact that I prefer the grip for absorbing recoil. Just my .02.

[Lloyd Smale]

ive got an old model Blackhawk 357 punched out to 44 special that eats keith level loads for lunch. My guess is that its not a lot stouter then the redhawk. I would think that ruger knew darned well that 44 special guys are experimenters and that this gun would surely need to stand up to keith level loads. I know a 357 gp100 is a bull strong gun. that all said a 250 at even a 1000fps will kill about anyting you poke it into.

[6bg6ga]

Just buy a 460 or 500 and be done with it.

[psweigle]

Buffalo bore ammo. Its a Ruger, it will eat them all day without an issue. There is no need to try to blow it apart and hurting anyone with anything else.

[Thumbcocker]

Thin forcing cone concerns me. Mine will get a diet of 250 Keiths over 8.0 of Power Pistol.

[kmrra]

Buy a 44 mag LOL just kidding , I dont think you will have any problems with the Ruger , for one they are over built in the first place , My Redhawk is probably the strongest 44 on the market, and second I dont think that Ruger would put out a product if it wasnt proven first , Or at least they use to not?, I have been looking at that gun and kinda waiting to see if they are going to make one in a 6 inch barrel.

[Forrest r]

You're comparing balloon head cases to balloon head cases here. Typo?
Not a typo. Try this. The nra tested the Keith loads using balloon headed cases and found the load was 20,000+psi. They also found that if you use modern cases AND THE BALLOON HEADED CASE DATA YOU WOULD GET 7,000psi MORE PRESSURE. Same Keith loads, 2 different cases.
Pearce included the 696 in his 25k psi data, but in a later article mentioned the thin forcing cone that might crack with continued use of these loads. While the Ruger GP100 44 spl might be stronger than the 696, but looking at the forcing cone you'll see it's a bit thin, too.

I'd tone the loads down a bit, and use them sparingly.

This is what's wrong with this ruger bs. You got 44mag data thrown in with "Well Keith did this" so I'll compare it to what pearce did. Add to that a extremely thin forcing cone.

Keith's loads. They are no where near 27,000psi. They are no where near pearce's 25,000psi.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/ElmersLoads_zpsuuc1pkdq.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/ElmersLoads_zpsuuc1pkdq.jpg.html)

Ya confusing ain't it.
18.5gr of 2400/429421 bullet with balloon headed cases
17.0gr of 2400/429421 bullet in modern cases

A link to the nra tests.
http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/NRA%20-%20Loads%20for%20the%2044%20Special.pdf

The nra used 6 1/2" bbl's (target model 1950 & test pressure bbl) so all their velocities were from 6 1/2" bbl's.
Line 20 show the old "KEITH BALLOON HEAD CASE LOAD" 18 1/2gr of 2400/429421 bullet combo. It did 1233fps out of aa 6 1/2" bbl and 20,870psi.

Why the heck 27,000psi or pearce's 25,000psi keep coming up with what Keith did is beyond me.

The nra tests showed a 16.0gr load of 2400/429421 @ 1138fps & 18.860psi (line 19).
The nra tests show a 17.1/2gr load of 2400/431/244 @ 1163fps & 22,960psi
A link to pearce's article.
http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/Brian%20Pearce%20on%20the%2044%20Special.pdf

It confirms what the nra found with their 16.0gr of 2400 load/429421 bullet. In the category 2 section Namely over the category 1 loads/15.500psi range but under 22,000psi max category 2 and under 1200fps from 2 different firearms.
It took the category 3 loads to test the Keith modern case load (17gr of 2400) and the tests showed 2 different Keith swc bullets tested in 2 different firearms and the s&w 61/2" bbl'd model 24 barely made 1200fps with the 17.0gr of 2400/429421 bullet combo.
Just because the Pearce article says 25,000psi max for all loads listed doesn't mean those 17.0gr of 2400 loads were anywhere near 25,000psi.

At the end of the day you have Keith's loads
You have 7,000psi more from using balloon headed case data in modern solid based 44spl brass.
You have pearce saying loads are 25,000psi or LESS. I guess it never occurred to most people that read the pearce article that when it said XXXXX max or LESS. It could actually mean that the loads listed were actually LESS than the XXXXX #'s posted.

3 totally different things.

That Keith load of 17.0gr of 2400/429421 bullet combo is even close to 25,00psi.

Yup, I think I'll try that 27,000psi Keith load to get 1200fps+ out of my 3 " bbl'd gp100. Or should I try that pearce 25,000psi load to get 1200fps out of that 3" bbl???

Or how about I blew the gun up with that 17.0gr of 2400/429421 27,000psi keith load so I switched to that 17.0gr of 2400/429421 25,000psi pearce's load to get 1200fps from my 3" bbl'd gp100.

Reality, 1100fps is very doable in that 3" bbl'd gp100 with the 17.0gr of 2400/429421 keith load that pearce mirrored/re-tested.

[Petrol & Powder]

I would stay in the "Skeeter Load" territory.
250gr bullet in the 900-1000 fps range. Don't think you would ever have a problem with that load and it will get the job done.

The SAAMI specs for the 44 Special are ridiculously low. My guess, and this is just a guess, is that a GP-100 in 44 special can easily take a little more than the 15,500 psi limit that the specs top out at.

[usbp379]

I've been messing around with 240 and 255gr cast bullets in my 44 Special GP100 and don't think you're going to get where you want to be with the 3in barrel. Slower powder like 2400, so far at least, hasn't yielded much better velocities than what's obtained from Universal and Unique.

My results seem to indicate that a 250gr isn't going to go much faster than about 1,050 fps unless you completely ignore the work of experienced authors and handloaders. Even then you're well above the sedate SAAMI pressure spec for the 44 Special.

I've pretty much settled on a 255gr RN LHP loaded with something akin to what Skeeter would have likely used. For the 255gr Keith-style I'm loading 2400 but somewhat under what Elmer is known to have used. Both my loads are above currently published data but extraction is fine. Neither load is necessarily pleasant and isn't something you'll want to shoot all afternoon but either will likely work okay for pigs, deer, etc.

What we really need is a new SAAMI spec. A vetted +P standard that is agreed upon by manufacturers with proper and pressure tested load data in a variety of guns and at a variety of temps. While we don't likely need to get too carried away I can't imagine that 44 Special couldn't be at least safely loaded and tested to pressures found in 45ACP ammo.

Anyway, sorry for the SAAMI rant.


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[usbp379]

I'm going to make a SWAG and predict that we'll see a 41 Mag and or 44 Mag GP100 within the next year or two. The current Special will give Ruger a good reference point to what the frame size will handle and how well it'll work in a mass production big bore standpoint. It will also help Ruger gauge the Magnum market place. Plus I believe a Magnum is the next logical evolution just as the 69 was for Smith.

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[usbp379]

Thin forcing cone concerns me. Mine will get a diet of 250 Keiths over 8.0 of Power Pistol.
Indeed. There ain't much meat there where barrel pokes through frame.

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[Petrol & Powder]

usbp379 - I couldn't agree with you more about the need for a legitimate, vetted +P 44 Special standard.

The SAAMI specs for 44 Special are ridiculously low and we all know the history behind that standard. There is a real need for an accepted +P 44 Special load. The spread between 44 Special (15,500 psi) and 44 Mag (36K psi) is huge!

[mcdaniel.mac]

I'm going to make a SWAG and predict that we'll see a 41 Mag and or 44 Mag GP100 within the next year or two. The current Special will give Ruger a good reference point to what the frame size will handle and how well it'll work in a mass production big bore standpoint. It will also help Ruger gauge the Magnum market place. Plus I believe a Magnum is the next logical evolution just as the 69 was for Smith.

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I doubt we'll see a .44 Mag, but maybe a .41SPL run, or a .45LC.

[usbp379]

Speaking of 45 Colt; there are a number of sources for "Ruger Only" loads and this data has existed for a number of years. While it has probably happened occasionally the hot data doesn't seem to have caused a rash of exploded genuine historical Colt Peacemakers. Surely the concern that an enthusiastic reloader will blow up Grandpa's vintage Special is well founded but somewhat obsolete. How many vintage guns are still in service? Come on, Hornady (and Speer and Alliant, etc) and give us some "Ruger Only" 44 Special loads!

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[usbp379]

I doubt we'll see a .44 Mag, but maybe a .41SPL run, or a .45LC.

No chance of a 41 Special unless it gets a SAAMI rating.

What Ruger needs to do is dust off the blueprints for the LCR and beef things up accordingly. Who doesn't want a medium frame LCR in 44 Special? What about a 45 ACP that uses moon clips?

Would anyone want Keith-style loads in an LCR? I think not.

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[mcdaniel.mac]

No chance of a 41 Special unless it gets a SAAMI rating.

What Ruger needs to do is dust off the blueprints for the LCR and beef things up accordingly. Who doesn't want a medium frame LCR in 44 Special? What about a 45 ACP that uses moon clips?

Would anyone want Keith-style loads in an LCR? I think not.

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Maybe a moon-clipped 10mm...

[usbp379]

Maybe a moon-clipped 10mm...
Now that I could see.

The platform has already been tested in this caliber by Clements and others. No reason Ruger couldn't make such an animal.

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[reddog81]

With the renewed popularity of the 44 in smaller framed guns a +P designation seems like a logical next step.

[usbp379]

With the renewed popularity of the 44 in smaller framed guns a +P designation seems like a logical next step.
The 38 Special, 38 Special +P and 357 Magnum all seem to coexist happily.

So now what? Email campaign to Ruger? Hornady?

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[bcr]

Maybe a moon-clipped 10mm...

I would probably buy one of those.

[Lloyd Smale]

bet it has a thicker forcing cone then my 696 smith has and its ate ALOT of keith level loads.
Thin forcing cone concerns me. Mine will get a diet of 250 Keiths over 8.0 of Power Pistol.

[Lloyd Smale]

remember too that Elmer Keith developed those loads for the 44 spc in a colt single action. He didn't have a stouter built ruger or id bet those loads today would be even hotter. He developed them in the 44 spec because he messed up a couple 45 colts trying to push it and knew the 44 cylinder with its thicker wall would handle them.
Speaking of 45 Colt; there are a number of sources for "Ruger Only" loads and this data has existed for a number of years. While it has probably happened occasionally the hot data doesn't seem to have caused a rash of exploded genuine historical Colt Peacemakers. Surely the concern that an enthusiastic reloader will blow up Grandpa's vintage Special is well founded but somewhat obsolete. How many vintage guns are still in service? Come on, Hornady (and Speer and Alliant, etc) and give us some "Ruger Only" 44 Special loads!

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[Lloyd Smale]

never been a gp100 fan but one in 10mm might get me to take a chance on one. It would make a gun that would be great to shoot 40s out of too.

[usbp379]

never been a gp100 fan but one in 10mm might get me to take a chance on one.
Interesting that there seems to be a certain level of interest in a 10mm revolver while the semi-auto 10mm (and now the 40S&W) are a dead and dying breed.

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[Lloyd Smale]

The 40sw is FAR from a dying breed. Id bet more 40s are sold in this country then 45acps or 357 mags. 10mm is far from dead too. It doesn't have the sales numbers the 9s 40s and 45s have but theres new 10s announced every year. Sig just came out with on this year. Colt, S&W, Sig, CZ and Glock chamber 10s and I know theres so more that slip my mind.

[usbp379]

I was being somewhat melodramatic but 40S&W sales have definitely taken a slump. Case in point is the Ruger American. The pistol is being sold in 45ACP and 9mm but not in 40S&W. Now the case can be made that Ruger isn't going after LE market and there never was a strong commercial interest in 40. But even then Ruger makes 40 S&W pistols in the SR line and used to make the old DA/SA P-series guns in 40.

But we'll see. Stranger things have happened. Truth be told I'd be in for one myself if and when Ruger makes one.

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[mcdaniel.mac]

I was being somewhat melodramatic but 40S&W sales have definitely taken a slump. Case in point is the Ruger American. The pistol is being sold in 45ACP and 9mm but not in 40S&W. Now the case can be made that Ruger isn't going after LE market and there never was a strong commercial interest in 40. But even then Ruger makes 40 S&W pistols in the SR line and used to make the old DA/SA P-series guns in 40.

But we'll see. Stranger things have happened. Truth be told I'd be in for one myself if and when Ruger makes one.

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10mm is niche, but more popular than .41 mag or .38 Super, especially with Glock bringing on the 41MOS and Sig doing the 10mm 220 SAO.

I don't know much about 41 SPL, but 10mm should be a close match. 180-220gr between 1200 and 1000fps, yeah?

[Lloyd Smale]

ballisticaly the 41special and 10mm are about kissing cousins in a stoutly built gun like a gp100. What one will do so would the other. Big advantges to me are moon clips in the 10mm and brass though not easy or cheap to find can be found. the 41 special has had a couple runs of brass but its mostly a make your own deal. Another advantage to the 10mm is in a pinch it can shoot .40s&w ammo that can be found about everywhere and brass is cheap and easy to find. As a matter of fact id buy one in 40 too if they made it. Cheaper to shoot and if a guy wanted a cheap run of a reamer and youd have a 10mm.
10mm is niche, but more popular than .41 mag or .38 Super, especially with Glock bringing on the 41MOS and Sig doing the 10mm 220 SAO.

I don't know much about 41 SPL, but 10mm should be a close match. 180-220gr between 1200 and 1000fps, yeah?

[jrayborn]

The GP100 in .44 Spl has a plenty strong cylinder. I am just not sure how much the forcing cone can handle as it is mighty thin. I am running 240 grain cast and jacketed over 14.5 and 15 grains of 2400 respectively and getting good accuracy, but have not chrono'd anything yet and plan to tone it down a smidge. It's fun playing though... :)

[Lloyd Smale]

My 696 smith has a paper thin forcing cone but has held up to thousands of round. What I don't do is shoot jacketed bullets or ball powders in it. I tend to stick with bullets like lfns that have a nose that allows a gradual ride into the forcing cone if something isn't lined up just perfectly. Don't know if that's necessary but all I know is its held up to many thousands of rounds and some of it keith level loads and is no worse for wear today.

[smkummer]

I was just shooting my Colt New Frontier 44 special with a 7 1/2 barrel and 7.5 grains unique/Lyman 429421. At 15 yards, it was a big almost 1 ragged hole group. (Lyman 429360 with 5 grains 700X was double the group size, I have yet to find a accurate load combo with that bullet). I see Keith referred to that load as a light gallery load when I must be 900-950 FPS and 500 FP energy, certainly more than just a light gallery load. I would think in a short barrel, unique would give results close to 2400 as more of the powder would burn. Maybe someone can chime in who has cronographed shorter barreled 44 specials.

[ironhead7544]

From a 3" S&W 44 Special, I chronoed the Skeeter load at 845 fps and the Keith load at 985 fps.

[johnson1942]

i dont get this magnum stuff. its not fun to shoot. in a self defense situation a well placed bullet is more important. if it passes through a body it does not register what it took to do it. i think pushing the limits of any gun is child like at its best. i avoid all i can guys who do these kind of things. it is a part of other things in their life also. it is easy to get killed around these kind of guys.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
This is an interesting read as the Ruger GP100 in 44 Special is my next venture. Have been carrying 44 Special for years and have no doubt a 240-255 gr cast at 850-900 fps will terminate any issue I will need settled.
And a 5 shot so nicely carries in a holster or my kayak mounted holster. The Ruger will do all I need done and hopefully never needed badly.
Mike in Peru

[Blackwater]

I've tried to stay away from this thread, but being a .44 anything fan, I just couldn't. As to the original question, you're asking for opinions, when what you REALLY need is good, proven answers. But Ruger won't release such info, lest they be seen as culpable when some idjit blows up his gun with magnum+ loads. And if Ruger, who is the only ones capable of really calculating and testing the gun, won't help, then you're at the same point ol' Elmer was so long ago now, and you're just gonna' have to do some experimenting, but then, ONLY if you're willing to put your gun at risk (and they won't replace it under warranty if it shows clear signs of abuse), and just maybe, your life or significant body parts, like your shooting hand. A blowup could also put bystanders at risk, and could cost you everything you own. So if none of that dissuades you, do what Elmer did and go shooting with like minded folks in very small groups, with the onlookers well behind you, and not to one side. Then, experiment to your heart's contentment.

However, I suspect you'll do like 3 friends of mine who have the Rossi 3" .44 Specials, and you'll find, especially if you plan to carry for self defense, that followup shots are MUCH slower with the heavy loads, due to the increased recoil and the time it takes to pull the gun down out of recoil, that a milder load is MUCH more sensible in the gun. They're all shooting the 200 gr. Lee RNFP over 7.0 gr. of Unique, and they're very happy with it. You never know in a SD situation, how many friends will be with the bad guy. Lighter loads, but still good stoppers, make your odds of survival much improved if you should have to shoot fast at multiple targets, and these days, most bad guys approach in small groups, so ..... govern your choices accordingly.

However, in all this somewhere, you'll have to take into consideration that i once blew up a Super Blackhawk, so I have become MUCH more "reasonable" in what I strive for these days. I think you're gonna' find that 20K psi. loads will give you as much recoil as you'll be able to really enjoy in that gun. A few a little hotter would be a reasonable test. Personally, I can't imagine any real need or any real necessity for more than 7.5 gr. Unique with the 250 gr. SWC's. That's probably around 20-22K psi. and should do anything a hotter load will do. That 250 penetrates quite deeply, and the hottest thing I plan to try in my Flat Top is 8.0 gr. Unique with the 220 gr. Lyman 429215. As I've grown older, it's finally dawned on me that you can only kill something or somebody just so dead, and all that "extra" is mostly for our titilation, and NOT really any real advantage. ESPECIALLY in a self defense situation. What you want in a self defense situation is ENOUGH power AND rapid follow up potential. Gov'ts and the factories have been experimenting with these parameters for a very long time now, creating the 10mm and .40 S&W in an effort to find a caliber for new police and LE guns that gets the best of those two worlds put together.

But hey! I was once into bragging rights too, so I understand the allure of "more power" in the Tim Taylor manner. Just be VERY careful and wise, because as has been mentioned, Elmer and friends blew up a number of guns in the process of their experimenting. And also, there's the additional factor that softer recoiling guns are easier to PLACE the bullets with, and bullet placement almost ALWAYS makes more difference than a little more speed with any particular bullet. So there are many factors, albeit not quite as exciting, and thus less often covered, that counter-indicate the heavier loads.

I really have the bug for one of these new guns, and if I get one, which seems likely at some time in the near future, I won't be trying to hotrod it, but will look for good "stopping" loads that let me make followup shots quickly. But I'm older and have all that tostosterone driven madness kind'a out of me .... well, usually .... and I tend strongly to have my sights set on more sustainable loads and power levels. The .44 Special, with good bullets and not too hot loads, will outshine the .45 ACP, and the .45 has a stellar reputation extending back for 100 years of performance equal to most anything you can use it for, and most particularly for self defense. Afterr all, what will a 200-250 gr. FN bullet at 900-1050 fps. NOT kill readily, with a decently placed bullet???? And all hopes of stopping with a poorly placed bulet are a pipedream, unless maybe you're shooting a velocity of Mach 2.5 or better. Handguns kill almost wholly from impact effect (thus the FP bullet) and tissue damage. You just don't have the crushing shock wave very high velocity brings to the table. So the wise concentrate on bullet placement. That's my take on it all, anyway, FWIW, if anything?

Just be careful. There's a LOT of folks now getting bolder and bolder in their "experimenting," and they seem to think they're immortal and that things are always gonna' work like they expect them to. But that didn't work for Elmer and crew, and they ruined a number of very nice guns in their experimenting. ANYONE whose JOB is to experiment ALWAYS takes every safety protection they can get. Just going out and seeing how much a gun will take before it blows just ain't very bright, and seems destined to cause problems eventually, of one sort or another. Be VERY sure not to shoot experimental hot loads around other shooters, like on a range with other shooters to the right and left on the line. That is VERY risky, and puts all you own on the line as well as your life and body parts! They trust everyone on the line to have sensible, proven loads. Don't ever violate another shooter's trust. It CAN lead to all sorts of rather persistent problems.

Other than that, if you do your experiments, let us all here know so we won't have to repeat them all. And be sure to include notes on any dimensional changes, and any development of looseness in the gun. And just remember, that sometimes, an accumulation of heavier than normal loads CAN develop fatigue in the metal, and fatigued metal generally lets go all at once, without giving you any real observable indication that it's coming. I'm sure the GP will take stronger than SAAMI loads, but I wouldn't go over what seems to be @ 20K psi. if it was me, which it isn't. That should give you all the power you really need, and much better followup shot times. That's a really good spot in the ballistics parameters, to be at. FWIW?

[shoot-n-lead]

There is no better .44 Special defensive load than a 200gr full wadcutter at 1000fps...as good as it gets. I load my own using the 208gr Lee...but look at what Buffalo Bore says about them.

You can do your own tests to see how they perform...devastating round.

Buffalo Bore .44 Special Anti-personnel ammo (https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=282)

[usbp379]

There is no better .44 Special defensive load than a 200gr full wadcutter at 1000fps...as good as it gets. I load my own using the 208gr Lee...but look at what Buffalo Bore says about them.

You can do your own tests to see how they perform...devastating round.

Buffalo Bore .44 Special Anti-personnel ammo (https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=282)
I don't see how this would be a better bullet than a modern offering from Barnes, Speer, etc. Sure it has a wide flat frontal surface area but at the end of the day it is still .429 in diameter. A good hollowpoint will expand to at least .50 or even better. And if the hollowpoint fails to expand due to loss of velocity or clothing barrier etc the bullet is still .429 and just as good as your full wadcutter.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[usbp379]

Here is--in case someone wants to try these Buffalo Bore bullets without the ridiculous price--the bullet BB uses for thier load.

https://rimrockbullets.com/xcart/-44-200-gr-dewc-fb-per-500-anti-personel-.html

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[shoot-n-lead]

I don't see how this would be a better bullet than a modern offering from Barnes, Speer, etc. Sure it has a wide flat frontal surface area but at the end of the day it is still .429 in diameter. A good hollowpoint will expand to at least .50 or even better. And if the hollowpoint fails to expand due to loss of velocity or clothing barrier etc the bullet is still .429 and just as good as your full wadcutter.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

I didn't expect that YOU would.

And, you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

I will stay with what I have seen work on flesh and blood...what I have seen on animals, leaves nothing for me to debate...This bullet will reach structure...organs or bone...from ANY angle, every time. You nor anyone else can say that about any hollow point typical defensive handgun bullet. For me, I want guaranteed penetration....

At any rate, you go with whatever you like.

BTW, next time you are watching a gel test on youtube...check that gel to see how many sternum and arm bones are in the gel.

[W.R.Buchanan]

The full wadcutter design cuts meat like a hole punch. Round nosed or mushrooming boolits tend to push meat out of the way as they travel thru.

Essentially it would produce a wound similar to getting driven thru with a piece of 7/16" steel rod until it hit something substantial then it would probably break that and continue on.

Not much would live thru that. But no much is going to live thru being shot by any of these boolits.

People don't seem to realize how devastating being shot with a large caliber round even at modest velocities would be. The effects of large caliber boolits at modest velocities was well documented by 1900. The Targets haven't changed that much in 100 years.

Randy

[DougGuy]

The full wadcutter design cuts meat like a hole punch. Round nosed or mushrooming boolits tend to push meat out of the way as they travel thru.

Essentially it would produce a wound similar to getting driven thru with a piece of 7/16" steel rod until it hit something substantial then it would probably break that and continue on.

Not much would live thru that. But no much is going to live thru being shot by any of these boolits.

People don't seem to realize how devastating being shot with a large caliber round even at modest velocities would be. The effects of large caliber boolits at modest velocities was well documented by 1900. The Targets haven't changed that much in 100 years.

Randy


Incorrect.

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And what part of Randy's accurate reply would you deem incorrect? Surely you have never killed a deer with one of the Lee RF boolits or you would already know how much more pronounced the wound channel from a WFN or a full wadcutter is over a K type LSWC or even a HP. It isn't JUST theory.

Edit: After having taken more deer with the 7 1/2" SBH than all my other arms combined, I have backed off to a new hunting boolit, which is basically a little soupcan driven to 1200fps in a medium framed Vaquero, one that I rechambered a 45 ACP cylinder to 45 Schofield so basically this is the 44 Special with a 1 added to the end of it making it a 45. Not a whole ton of difference in the 45 Schofield and the 44 Special, they are close enough for comparison..

Since both guns can be expected to push a 250gr boolit to 1200fps reliably and safely, I am retiring my SBH and looking to carry the 5 1/2" Vaquero and one of Veral's fine wide flat nosed offerings, all shoot well over H110, I have total confidence in either of these three boolits, but I am intending to hunt with the one on the left, Veral calls it the "OWC or Ogival Wad Cutter" and claims it to be stable when driven supersonic.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/250_LBT_TRIO_zpshh2co3gc.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/250_LBT_TRIO_zpshh2co3gc.jpg.html)

I suspect that anyone who would load the same mini-oilcan in the 44 Special would have a very effective hunting load when driven to 1200fps, and without a doubt a VERY effective defensive load but I wouldn't choose to push it to 1200fps for defense.

JUST for s_____ n grins I think I will load a few of these 250gr OWC boolits in 45 ACP cases, see if I can get them to feed in one of my 1911s, I have one that eats anything you can cycle through the magazine with it's long throated barrel. Would make an awesome bowling pin load!

[W.R.Buchanan]

Doug: Those WFN's are very effective even at 900 fps! Let alone 1200. 900 fps from these 3" barreled guns is easily achieved with Mid Range Loads and a guy might actually be able to hit something with them.

There is two sides to this story. There is the side of what any given boolit will do under controlled conditions, and typically this would be the best possible performance that is available from that those boolits at those speeds.

Then there is the real world.

If you can't hit the target,,, you can't make use of any performance no matter what it is.

I assure you that my 696 is never going to see a full house .44 Special Load simply because I have no use for one. The gun will do everything I need from it at 800 fps. And I have settled on one load that delivers that, so that is the load I shoot, and practice with.

I am more likely to hit a target with that load that I had practiced with, Than I would trying to hit something with a 1000-1100 fps load that I had never practiced with because it was so unpleasant to shoot, and only had in the gun because of something I might encounter in the field. If I missed the first shot, I damn sure would never hit anything with the follow up simply because the recoil is so different.

Once again, and I am not "Incorrect" in my assumption that large caliber boolits are very formidable even at lower velocities,,, I will take a hit at 750-800fps,,, before a miss at any velocity any day. I am more likely to make that shot with the lighter load than I am with the heavier one just because of all things stated above, and the fact that I am going to shoot more lighter loads in practice because they are easier to shoot and less costly to make etc. etc. etc.!!!

Getting hit by anything at any velocity is going to ruin your day. I doubt you'd know what the velocity was before it hit you, and I really doubt that you would care. The big boolits are just going to have more impact than say a .22, so You might say,,,

"Gee that wasn't a .22 I just got shot with, I might be in trouble here."

Randy

[Walkingwolf]

Whoa that is a LOTTA pressure on that Italian clone! You are most definitely over any 25kpsi by now. You are fully into the Ruger Only loadings for 45 Colt with 296. Is this a 44 magnum Pietta?

He is talking about a 3" 44 Special, how did 5.5" 44 magnum get into the convo?

OP I had another thread asking for cylinder measurements and we got to the point where the 5 shot GP100-44 cylinder is actually thicker than the 6 shot Flattop Blackhawk 44 Special so going by the fact that a Flattop Blackhawk, medium framed Blackhawk in 45 Colt is good to 23kpsi (45 ACP+P pressure) and the 44 Special is slightly smaller so cylinder measurements are slightly thicker for the 44 as compared to the 45, it would seem that the 44 Special in the flattop would be good to 25kpsi, and if the GP100-44 cylinder walls are actually thicker, then I would say 250gr @ 1200fps from a 5 1/2" barrel would be doable and still under the 25kpsi pressure ceiling, but I don't know about reaching 1200fps from a 3" barrel and still staying under 25kpsi.

I have a medium framed Vaquero with 5 1/2" barrel chambered to 45 Schofield, very similar in size to the 44 Special, and I got a 250gr LBT WFN to 1200fps over 21.5gr H110 and QL said the pressures were under 23kpsi, shooting it seemed to confirm what QL said, recoil was snappy and quick but not sharp, brass extracted easily and no pressure signs on the primers. This would be a good load for deer, black bear, or hogs up to 300lbs.

Bill brought up the 5.5 bisley, my 1873 is a 44 mag, and the loads are seated on the second crimp groove making them a 44 mag length. A 44 mag should easily take loads 25K range. If he went with a Bisley SBH he should have no problems with reaching his goal. Then use the GP100 for SD, and a backup to the SBH.

[warboar_21]

I doubt we'll see a .44 Mag, but maybe a .41SPL run, or a .45LC.
I was told by the Guys at the booth at SHOT show that the 45 Colt wasn't a possibility.

[mcdaniel.mac]

I was told by the Guys at the booth at SHOT show that the 45 Colt wasn't a possibility.
Too wide I guess?

[warboar_21]

Too wide I guess?
Yeah he said they were about as large as they could safely go. I didn't ask about 44 mag as it's never done anything for me.

When I asked about a 10mm version he kinda smiled and said the 10mm would fit but they didn't have any plans for one as of yet.

I also asked S&W if they considered a run of the 610s and 625 mountain gun. I forget his name but he said both were popular and sold well and it had been awhile since they had run either model. Would love to see them added to their catalog again.

[PJP]

I am loading this one with 7.5 of Herco, for 925 ave. fps....just a nice defense load out of the GP100...nice bullet too. https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/44-mag-lbt-240gr-owc-pb/

[6bg6ga]

Doug: Those WFN's are very effective even at 900 fps! Let alone 1200. 900 fps from these 3" barreled guns is easily achieved with Mid Range Loads and a guy might actually be able to hit something with them.

There is two sides to this story. There is the side of what any given boolit will do under controlled conditions, and typically this would be the best possible performance that is available from that those boolits at those speeds.

Then there is the real world.

If you can't hit the target,,, you can't make use of any performance no matter what it is.

I assure you that my 696 is never going to see a full house .44 Special Load simply because I have no use for one. The gun will do everything I need from it at 800 fps. And I have settled on one load that delivers that, so that is the load I shoot, and practice with.

I am more likely to hit a target with that load that I had practiced with, Than I would trying to hit something with a 1000-1100 fps load that I had never practiced with because it was so unpleasant to shoot, and only had in the gun because of something I might encounter in the field. If I missed the first shot, I damn sure would never hit anything with the follow up simply because the recoil is so different.

Once again, and I am not "Incorrect" in my assumption that large caliber boolits are very formidable even at lower velocities,,, I will take a hit at 750-800fps,,, before a miss at any velocity any day. I am more likely to make that shot with the lighter load than I am with the heavier one just because of all things stated above, and the fact that I am going to shoot more lighter loads in practice because they are easier to shoot and less costly to make etc. etc. etc.!!!

Getting hit by anything at any velocity is going to ruin your day. I doubt you'd know what the velocity was before it hit you, and I really doubt that you would care. The big boolits are just going to have more impact than say a .22, so You might say,,,

"Gee that wasn't a .22 I just got shot with, I might be in trouble here."

Randy

I agree 100%

Personal opinion here... being able to target the round to an intruder or take down a black bear it all depends on getting the round to the target. The difference between a 900fps hit and a 1200fps isn't going to really be that much difference. A 900fps round that is controllable is far better than a 1200 fps round that doesn't get where it should. Both will do a great deal of damage. People laugh at the 45LC as opposed to the 44 magnum. There have been a lot of large animals taken down with a 250gr SWC in a 45 LC. I can put every round on target with my 45LC and it can be easily pushed to provide adequate performance on a lot of large animals. Not everything has to have a 10" barrel or push +P+ magnum loads. Control says a lot.

The 44 special in my opinion should be easier to control and will provide more than adequate power in any situation.

[AnthonyB]

Old thread resurrection. Yes, I have used a lot of the Skeeter loads in my three GP 100 44 Specials.
Tony

[ddixie884]

I have shot some 8.5 and 9gr PP under 240gr bbswc machine cast bullets in a 696 and the forcing cone shows no ill effects. I think the GP100 is probably stronger than the 696. I read on some forum on the net where someone loaded a GP100 too strongly but I don't remember where. Better designed bullets will give less pressure and I don't really see any problems with Skeeter's load in a GP100. Google is your friend........

[W.R.Buchanan]

The deal on Forcing Cone issues on the 696's, was shooting a bunch of lead boolits and leading up the forcing cone and then shooting a jacketed bullet thru it. Almost guaranteed to split the spigot on the barrel. I got that directly from Brian Pearce.

I always wondered why they didn't put a reinforcing ring around that spigot after they installed the barrel?

For those who know about the way that S&W revolvers hit the web of your hand really hard,,, The X Frame Grips fit right on the L Frame guns. you can see the padding for the web in the pic below.

Randy

[edp2k]

Randy, who made that holster?

[W.R.Buchanan]

Mernickle. It is nice and was only about $90. They also made the belt and it was $79 very stiff and made specifically to be a Pistol Carrying Belt. I wanted the "Thumb Break" so the gun wouldn't fall out when not paying attention or running.

You can buy a whole system with holster, belt and speedloader carrier for @$189. Well worth the money and the workmanship is excellent !

https://www.mernickleholsters.com/products/202-ps6dasys-double-action/

I wear it right over the top of my pants belt which is usually a 5.11 TDU nylon web belt. Note the belt keepers to hold it in place. Must have item!

Randy

[curioushooter]

I felt like bringing up this thread again....and getting back into a large bore revolver again.

I was just scrolling through Ruger's website (presently I am a strictly smith's guy), which is sort of heretical for me. Then I saw this GP100 5" blued with a grip and a half lug on it that makes it look like how a revolver should look...like a Smith & Wesson. They even clearly copied the S&W Roper-type target grip style from the classic N-frame target guns of the 50s. I was instantly smitten just with the look of the heretical thing.

Over the last year I thought of getting one of those Model 69s but darn they are hideous...I just can't stomach the ugly trigger, latch, and hammer AND the dull stainless finish AND the stupid Hillary hole.

And I was like...this thing is a Ruger...it's gotta be an overbuilt brick. Though 44 Special it should at least be able to handle the heavy 44SPL loads of the pre-44 mag era, right? Stuff like this from page 33 of Nov 1974 issue of Handloader.

255740

Seems many of those heavier loads seem like they would be excellent, and rather what I prefer in 44 magnum, which has too big of a case with some of these. But alas, this thing may be rather weak.

So I just get off the phone with Ruger (cagey and fairly useless as usual) and they tell me that the hole for the barrel is exactly the same as that for the 357 magnum GPs. This means that it has a thin barrel under those threads and a thin forcing cone. Just the same problem the Model 696 had...ugh... And if they crush that barrel in like they do on ever Ruger I've ever known I wouldn't be surprised if those threads got stretched and work hardened and bulged (which always wrecks accuracy).

From the looks of it the cylinder walls seem plenty beefy.

And there are quality issues too? I would think Ruger would have really made this thing nicely. Are the later Blued ones any nicer in that regard than the earlier Stainless ones?

Anyone put a thousand or so relatively heavy 44 special loads through one of these yet? The so called "Skeeter Load" is 7.5 grains of Unique behind a Lyman 429421, correct? That's what I would consider a minimum heavy 44 special while the 16.5 of 2400 under the 429421 would be a a maximum heavy 44 special load.

I have my doubts about that handloader data from 1974. Those seem like remarkably sedate pressures for those velocities in a revolver.

[megasupermagnum]

Of the 7 or so Ruger's I've bought in the last 3-4 years, not one of them has any significant bore constriction at the frame. Smith and Wesson on the other hand has gone straight down the toilet.

Both 357 magnum and 10mm auto offer better performance any way you slice it, and are offered in the exact same model. Lot's of guys are using your 7.5 grain Unique load in these though without problems, although there was a post about a cracked forcing cone already (unsure of what load he was using). The GP100 is already a trim gun, falling somewhere between a K and L frame, and trying to stuff large bore calibers in it is just pushing the size limits. A 5 shot- 41 magnum is doable though, and one day I hope Ruger makes it happen. Currently only Gary Reeder will do such a conversion.

My thinking is that velocity would be the only limit to a forcing cone, not pressure. You certainly wont hurt the Ruger's 5 shot cylinder. I have not measured either, but looking at a Charter Arms Bulldog and a GP100 44 special side by side, the GP100 forcing cone is twice as thick.

All that to say, I don't know. I personally would run the 7.5 gr Unique load in mine with no problem at all. 900 fps just doesn't seem like much of a demand to me. I would also rather have the 357 magnum version myself, which offers more power an 6 shots to boot. I own the Ruger 5014 if I want a big bore, no worries about 44 special in that one.

[curioushooter]

Both 357 magnum and 10mm auto offer better performance any way you slice it

First off, it depends upon what you mean about performance. I have reloaded extensively for 357 magnum. It is my favorite cartridge. I know its limitations and strengths (I happen to think its greatest strength lies as carbine cartridge). And there is no darn way you are going to get it to launch a 250 grain slug at 1000-1100 FPS out of a handgun without breaking something. I have shot some Lyman 358627s, and they will fit into SOME brands of brass without bulging the case out so much that accuracy sucks, but that bullet is only 220 grains and my 5" 686 can only get it going to about 1000 FPS. I wouldn't dream of putting one of those in a K or J frame.

As for 10mm, another cartridge I reloaded for extensively in the past, it isn't even deer legal in Indiana, so it has zero interest for me. 44 Special is long enough to satisfy the requirement.

Actually, if this thing--a 5" blued GP100 with a half underlug was offered in a 5-shot 41 Magnum--I would not even hesitate for a second to buy it.

But I don't think it will ever happen. Why? 41 Magnum SAMMI spec is still full powered 40,000 PSI, and was not reduced like 44 and 357. I think this is the same reason why we will probably not see a L-frame 41 magnum, though there is an L-frame 44 Magnum.

[megasupermagnum]

That's not true, SAMMI MAP for 41 magnum is 35,000 psi. For comparison, 10mm auto is 37,500 psi, and nobody has ever had a problem with that in the GP100, plus it is a 6 shot cylinder. What's an extra .010" with a 5 shot cylinder? I truly believe we will see such a gun one day, and I'll be first in line to buy one.

As for the performance issue, you can get a 200 grain bullet in 357 magnum to 1200 fps without going beyond the specified limits of the cartridge. You can go faster if you want to push it. The GP100 will handle gnarly old school 357 magnum loads. Alliant used to list (back before it was nerfed to 35,000 psi) 200 grain bullet at 1250 fps with 2400 powder. You could do better with H110.

No, you won't likely have good results with 250 grain bullets, although I have never tried them. You are pushing beyond what a 44 special is supposed to be by getting them to 1100 fps. It may or may not be ok in the GP100. It is certainly fine in larger guns. You can't blame Ruger for saying anything other than to stay inside the 44 special limits, S&W will say the same.

I just don't see what is wrong with staying to 44 special pressures. I just don't see why you would want to shoot 1100 fps, if 850 fps will shoot just as well. Maybe for hollow points if you want expansion. But then you could drop to a 200 grain bullet and get close to 1100 fps.

[Naphtali]

I believe the gp100 is a strong gun.
how strong is the question?
please don't waste my time and yours with posting - get a 44 mag.
Ross ,Elmer, and Skeeter pushed the 44 special. Oops forgot Brian.
I read somewhere th 44 cylinders were as thick as the 357s.
I am thinking wide metplate , 250 to 280grains pig load.
with enough speed to push that bullet.
decided to buy now in case ruger only does a short run of these.
so 25000? I believe Buffalo Bore manufactures higher than standard pressure 44 Special ammunition. You might take a look at their specifications. You might also give them a call to determine whether they have tested/experimented with your revolver. They might be able to furnish answers and/or ammunition.

Hope this helps.

[megasupermagnum]

Calling Buffalo Bore would be a good choice. I also know Clements used to convert GP100's to 44 special, and claimed you could run a 250 grain at 1200 fps in his. I would give him a call too and see what he thinks. He would know better than anybody.

[modified5]

Personally, I would rather shoot a sedate and accurate load than a heavy recoiling load to show how big my #%$& was and wonder why on earth I am shooting it!
And I'm not recoil sensitive. I own 4 .44 mags total. A SBH, RH a Rossi R92 and a 14 inch barrel for my Contender.
I can get anything done with a 240 lead bullet at moderate accurate velocities that I need done.
But then again, I'm not hunting T-Rex. :Fire::grin:

[JAC43]

I too am curious where the ceiling is for this revolver. Previous to Ruger producing it, a GP100 44 special was only available in the realm of custom jobs. Brian Pearce has been silent on it. Clements said his conversions were good to 1200 FPS with a 250 swc. I wonder if he set them up with any differences in the forcing cone and/or cylinder length as compared to the factory pieces. Less protrusion from the frame and a longer cylinder perhaps?

[curioushooter]

Based on Brian Pearce's article about the 44 special the GP100 should be able to handle the category III (25,000 PSI) loads. He says the 696 and the 396 can, as well as the post-war N-frame Smiths, Ruger Blackhawks, Freedom Arms revolver, etc.

This corroborates with David Clements who did GP100 conversions and states they can do 240 grainer at 1200 (basically a category III) load.

I called around to 4 "local gun stores" and every one gave me basically Lipsey's MSRP plus tax. All over $800! No thank you. I just picked up a nice, unmolested, red-C stamped, Model 624 in box to satisfy my 44 special needs and paid a lot less. And it has another charge hole and weighs just 5 oz more despite having a 1.5" longer barrel. I will have J, K, L, and Ns all in my stable again.

[35 Whelen]

Both 357 magnum and 10mm auto offer better performance any way you slice it, and are offered in the exact same model.

I'm not sure what you refer to as "performance", but if you're referring to bullet energy, that has nothing to do with how well a bullet will or will not kill. Regardless of what the math says, a .35" hole and a .40" hole will never be as large as a .43" hole. And where handguns and relatively slow moving bullets are concerned, bigger holes is what counts.
35W

[megasupermagnum]

I'm not sure what you refer to as "performance", but if you're referring to bullet energy, that has nothing to do with how well a bullet will or will not kill. Regardless of what the math says, a .35" hole and a .40" hole will never be as large as a .43" hole. And where handguns and relatively slow moving bullets are concerned, bigger holes is what counts.
35W

Thankfully bullets can expand if you let them. I don't believe in energy dump either. Still, a 158 grain 357 at 1500 fps or a 170 grain at 1400 fps will cut a larger wound channel and/or penetrate more than any comparable 44 special. I have not seen anything to prove that a 250 grain 44 hard cast bullet at 900 fps will penetrate any more than a 170 grain hard cast 357 at 1400 fps. You can push 44 special beyond it's limits, but you can push a 357 magnum beyond those limits too.

This is like the old 30-30 vs 44 magnum argument. By your logic 44 magnum crushes 30-30... but it doesn't. Right out of the muzzle you may have a point, but the farther you get from point blank, the more 30-30 beats the 44 magnum.

[curioushooter]

Thankfully bullets can expand if you let them.

Have you actually tested them, though? I have on homemade FBI-spec calibrated gelatin. The truth is that you CAN get cast bullets to expand, and they expand pretty much at 800 FPS or greater reliably if the alloy is soft enough. That isn't the issue. The issue is getting BOTH expansion and SUFFICIENT PENETRATION to work on deer size game. This is do-able with 357 magnum, but it by no means requires high velocities. The most effective load I've tested to date is a MP-Molds 359 Hammer with Small hollow point pushed by 13.5 grains of 2400 for about 1200 FPS out of mu 4" M19 and about 1250 FPS out of my 5" 686. Out of my Marlin the bullet fragments Actually, at only 1350 FPS it fragments with the alloy I am using 91-6-2 (pb-sn-sb). So in this case more velocity makes it perform worse, not better. That load at 1200-1250 FPS all the way down to about 900 FPS will expand to 60-67 caliber and go 13 to 19 inches deep. To me this isn't quite enough penetration to be satisfied. It is my opinion that in general 357 Mag bullets are underweight. I suspect the optimal cast HP performance would be obtained using a 180-200 grain bullet in that caliber.

The best performing JHP by far I have tested in 357 mag is the 180 grain XTP. ~16 grains of 300 MP is the absolute maximum performance that can be obtained without going over SAMMI 35KPSI.

With the larger calibers you have assurance of a decent sized hole (granted 43 caliber is not 60 or 67 caliber) AND ample penetration (over two feet) using an appropriate for caliber (like 220-265 grain) bullet. Plus there is no possibility that the hollowpoint will plug (sometimes very heavy clothing) or collapse angles at about 45 degrees or more a less to impact surface. Perpendicular is best.

Hollow points are like a parachute. They slow down the bullet and that stops how deeply they penetrate. You need momentum (a function of mass x velocity) so they go deep enough. That's hard to do with 357 mag and basically impossible with any shorter 36 caliber cartridge. There isn't enough room. Even 357 Max cannot really handle bullets heavier than the Lyman 358627 (about 215-220 grains) without shedding serious velocity.

Compare this to a 44 Special with 16 grains of 2400 (a Brian Pearce level II load, not even level III). This should go around 1150 with the Lyman 429421, a 255 grain bullet. This load will definitely penetrate well and still make a respectable 43 caliber hole across the entire range that normal revolvers can be practically used (100 yards let's say). It will still be going ~900 FPS or greater at that range.

The absolute best performance I've found from a cast HP with 357 has been the stated load above which may not really penetrate sufficiently, and would certainly be dubious at 100 yards when it would only penetrate around a foot.

Also, never overlook the importance of placing the shot over a piece of vital anatomy. Accuracy and ability should be top priorities.

[megasupermagnum]

I'm just comparing ballistics tests done by other people, I don't even own a 44 special. Paul Harrel on Youtube is a good resource, I love his meat target. 357 magnum gives some real impressive performance, 44 special is just ho-hum. I don't mean that in any way to degrade your choice of 44 special. If that is what you want, then that is what you want. You don't need any more reason than that.

In my own testing, I have found a solid cast bullet at even slow velocities can penetrate like mad. A good example was some 45 ACP rounds. When I first started with a 255gr SWC, my first loads were likely only 600-650 fps. They still went deep enough into the dirt berm to make recovering them a real chore. They went deeper than most hollow points.

I guess what I am saying is that if you want a 44 special to shoot solid bullets, it works just fine as it was intended. If a 44 caliber hole clean through a deer (or two) is the goal, you've got it. If you want more, I think a 357 magnum is better. That's just me.

[curioushooter]

I too enjoy Paul Harrel, but the so-called "meat target," which also includes various citrus fruits, is PURE RUBBISH methodology and a profound waste. It's a pity too because the guy is spot on with most things. For 50 bucks the guy could be homebrewing gel and actually get data that is both comparable to others' and one could draw rational conclusions from. I've sent him messages. To date he has either not read them or just wants to keep pointlessly destroying the various grocery store items he does. Also, I've never known Herrell to either cast or handload. 44 Special factory loads are indeed Ho-Hum. I am talking about Level II or Level III 44 Special handloads which are not 44 Magnum power, but are significantly more than SAMMI spec 44 special. The Ruger GP and other modern, larger or medium frame revolvers can handle the Level III while even the Charter Arms bulldog can handle Level II.

Gel is the most convenient and straight forward of the valid ballistic test mediums, and that is why everybody who does this stuff for real uses it. The great thing is it can be done simply at home. ~50 bucks of powdered unflavored gelatin mixed at 9:2 by volume with water, cooked, and cast into a cheap plastic file cabinet and set overnight in a refrigerator is all it takes to make. To get proper calibration a Daisy 880 with some 17 caliber steel BBs is all you need (2.9-3.4" penetration of bare gel with BB at ~585 FPS). Put it on a old picknic table. Voilia...terminal ballistics lab every bit as valid as a real one except you will only get one or two shots before you wreck the gel or it gets too warm to shoot. I can live with that.

No need to apologize megasupermagnum; I am a huge fan of 357 magnum, and 10mm frankly. Without a doubt 357/38SPL is the most essential revolver cartridge. I've shot deer with it (though usually out of a carbine, which sort of changes things as it pushes the velocity into near rifle ranges where solid cast bullets expand). Frankly, I think 357 in a carbine beats 30-30 under 75 yards. Past 100, 30-30 surpasses it. And 357 manages this with half the powder charge! For the last few months I've been doggedly chasing after the ideal 357 revolver deer load. I may have to get a very expensive mold to accomplish this as none of the HP bullets I have tried have provided what I consider ample penetration for larger deer taken at sub-optimal angles (I consider 2 feet of penetration a target benchmark). Trust me, when and if I find a cast 357 load that can expand to fifty caliber and go 2 feet deep I will report it here. So far only the 158 or 180 grain Hornady XTP have delivered this performance.

You are right in observing (not sure on your methodology, but what you say is true) very good penetration from solid cast bullets at handgun velocities. The Lyman 358429 in 38 special loads (like 800 FPS) has passed clear through two of my 14" gel blocks (>28" of penetration). No doubt other heavy for caliber bullets would do the same thing. But with 38/357 this is only a 36 caliber hole. At handgun velocities solids just do not expand. The lowest velocity I've observed any expansion is around 900 FPS with flat nosed solids cast of a VERY soft (like 32:1) alloy that would normally lead up 357 Mag. With the alloys needed to not lead a barrel you are generally going to be going to fast for them to expand.

I have paper patched soft-cast 429 bullets and shot them from my 44 Mag marlin. These could be driven hard enough to expand. But paper patching is extremely laborious, fit for rifles only in my opinion. And the problem with rifles and cast HPs is they usually frag.

In normal sized handguns a Level III 44 special is just more potent than 357 Mag. 16 or 17 grains of 2400 is more than 13.5. The Lyman 429421 is basically a scaled up 358429, with the same sectional density (in other words penetration). Level III (25KPSI) 44 special is 17 grains of 2400 with the 255 grain 429421. Modern 35KPSI 357 mag is 13.5 grains with the 358429, at 168 grain bullet, if crimped in the groove. 44 special has more powder (20%), more bullet (34%), more minimum permanent wound channel (30%) and the same penetrative potential. The velocity of these loads run about the SAME out of a 4-6" revolver (about 100 FPS or 12% greater for the maggie), so their capacity to induce expansion is about the same (44 probably a little better since it has a greater frontal area). 44 Special level III simply outclasses 357 and does it with much lower pressure, allowing a softer bullet to be used. And yea, I've tried other powders besides 2400 chasing greater velocity with 357. 296 gets you maybe 25 FPS in 4" revolver. 300MP will get you maybe 50. There just isn't enough barrel. The same stuff holds true when you hollow-point. The 44 will expand more and go to the same depth if comparable bullets are used.

If the target is thinner skinned and bodied (like small game, coyotes, and bipedal primates) then 357 with a HP is the way to go. If I were a 1960s lawman and could pick what I carried, it would be a 4" S&W Model 19 loaded with a ~158 grain bullet cast of 16:1 with a medium sized, tapered conical HP pushed by 13.5 grains of 2400. I carry my 4" M19 in the woods with me to plug coyotes/feral dogs. It is as near to perfect as I can imagine for this task. And it doesn't have to be pushed to do this. A 158 grain cast HP bullet crimped in the normal place with 13.5 grains of 2400 (the Elmer Keith 38HighVelocity load) is probably only ~30,000 PSI. In the 1961 edition of Sixguns The Prophet Keith specifically recommended it for the M19 (recognizing way back then that it would probably be stressed by anything greater in power). The M19 "provisos" we have today learned from hard experience in the 1970s were foretold two decades before by the man who invented the magnums!

[35 Whelen]

@curiousshooter nailed it. Expanding bullets indeed act like parachutes. John Barsness of Handloader and Rifle magazine explained it best; (paraphrasing) When a bullet expands, thereby increasing its frontal diameter, its sectional density, and therefore it's ability to penetrate, is lowered. So if your 158 gr. .357 bullet expanded to say .45", it would have roughly the penetrative quality of a .45 caliber round ball, which weighs around 145 grs.

I've only recovered four cast bullets from game. One was a 258 gr. .45 caliber SWC that struck a buck at around 1050 fps and travelled through around 30" of muscle and organs. The other three were HP's and in all three cases the shots were broadside.

This is a 162 gr. HP fired at 1700 fps from a .357 carbine into a hog at about 40 yds. I found it under the skin on the offside.

https://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/357%20Carbine%20bullet_zpso8w7xbdx.jpg (https://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Hunting/357%20Carbine%20bullet_zpso8w7xbdx.jpg.html)

This one was 250 gr. cast SWCHP from a 7 1/2" Uberti .44 Special. MV was a little over 1100 fps and it hit a buck 38 yds. away, stopping under the hide on the off-side.

https://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/429244-2_zps9vrmnkgc.jpg (https://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Hunting/429244-2_zps9vrmnkgc.jpg.html)

This last one was a 265 gr. SWCHP fired from a 5 1/2" Uberti 45 Colt with a MV of 1050 fps. It struck a buck 48 yds. away, high right behind the shoulder and stopped under the skin-

https://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Hunting/Bullet%20from%20Spike_zps6m6ogv41.jpg (https://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Hunting/Bullet%20from%20Spike_zps6m6ogv41.jpg.html)

In each case penetration was significantly reduced. I know this because I killed similar game with .44 and .45 caliber solid SWC's and on broadside shots they penetrate completely. Last deer season I shot a buck at 41 yds. standing almost broadside with a .45 Colt running a 288 gr. SWC a little under 1000 fps. It of course penetrated completely. And don't let anyone tell you that SWC's, even at relatively low impact velocities, don't make large wound channels. This is what that .45 caliber bullet did-

https://i.imgur.com/cgKgUQ8.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/4MpgEJJ.jpg

Where handgun bullets are concerned, I'll take penetration over expansion any day.

35W

[curioushooter]

35W....excellent data there. It's amazing to me how closely gel data is corroborated by the genuine article. What alloys were you running (if you remember)?

One of the great take home messages I've gotten from gel testing so far has been that pat 1100 FPS it doesn't count for much unless you can get it going to 1500 FPS or greater. There is just not much improvement in terminal performance that occurs between 1100 and 1500 FPS or so from cast solids or HPs. With JHPs its a different story. The 158 grain XTP HP performs best at 1300-1400 FPS.

Cast hollow points expand very well at more moderate velocities of 900-1100...many fragment at 1300-1400 FPS. Once you get up to 1500s you can get expansion in cast solids. With a 357 carbine this is DO-able (though typically some ablation of the bullet occurs as you can see). I can get the RCBS 358-158-SWCGC and the MP359 Hammer going fast enough to expand, but their limitation is that they don't weigh quite enough to go the 2 feet that I think is ideal. In a handgun neither of these expand. The HP version of the MP359Hammer expands just as well at 900 impact velocity as it does at 1200. It goes a little deeper at the higher velocity (more momentum). It makes a brilliant small game/coyote/bipedal primate load. The 158 and 180 XTPs typically do not expand much past .55" and so they can go two feet, especially the 180. Because cast HP bullets do not have that jacket to strengthen their sides, they expand rather violently in an uncontrolled fashion, so all you have is mass and velocity to get penetration.

That said it seems your cast HPs did their job well enough. A bullet flying through a deer with a ton of velocity left isn't really all that great.

In terms of defining cast bullet performance from handguns on medium to large edible non-dangerous game I think that a larger bore solid cast bullet going 1200 fps at the muzzle is ideal. It will not expand but will deliver ample penetration across the entire practical range (to approx 100 yards), a reasonable diameter wound channel, no fragmentation (contamination of meat), and not be so punishing on the shooter so as to promote practice and proficiency.

When I started handgun hunting years ago it was with a Ruger SBH Bisley in 44 mag with a 8.5" tube and due to a case of severe magnumits largely encouraged by my friend I loaded it to max loads. 26 grains of Win 296 with a 265 grain cast RNFP if I recall. It was pretty brutal stuff, and that thing was HEAVY. It just wasn't fun. My shooting with it was poor. And it really wasn't especially accurate when I shot it off sandbags.

So I switched to 357 mag (in a 686) and 357 max (10" contender) and was quite happy with Hornandy's XTPs but I never found a cast load I really liked, though I found some in mag that were pretty good. I am confident with the contender out past 100 yards with the 180 grain XTP, 21.5 grains of LilGun, and an Ultradot. It is almost a ballistic match to my 357 Marlin. Both send the 180 grain XTP to 1700 FPS. This load is a sold deer load to 125 yards. Bullet expands to .55-.65 and will go at least 19" deep. It penetrates closer to 2 feet over most of the range.

But I really want to just settle on an all purpose cast deer load from a revolver. I want to be able to take more than one deer at a time. To many times now I had to pass on one or two does because I was reloading my single shot Contender. Even with a bracelet ammo holder it just isn't as fast as a revolver (also, the cycling of a lever is definitely more noisy that the rotation of a revolver. I've tried it slow, which can jam, and I've tried it fast...it spooks them half the time). After quite bit or reading I decided to go traditional. A 44 special with a 250 grain SWC pushed by 16-17 grains of 2400 for about 1200 FPS from a 6.5" S&W 624. I really have great hopes for this thing as it seemed so beloved by so many of the pioneers.

[megasupermagnum]

That is one of the more impressive pictures I've seen of what a solid bullet did to an animal. Still, a 357 magnum with a good hollow point will do that, and with a heck of a lot less recoil.

[curioushooter]

Still, a 357 magnum with a good hollow point will do that, and with a heck of a lot less recoil.

Says who? I've done the testing. Only JHPs can deliver comparable performance (a direct result of the copper jacket, which reduces expansion allowing for deeper penetration). Every cast 357 HP has not penetrated to the depth I think is optimal for deer sized animals (2 feet). I was considering purchasing a 200+ grain HP 358 mold to test, but we are starting to get into the recoil territory of a larger bore size. So nothing is gained really. The relationship between mass, velocity, and expansion and penetration is so consistent there are mathematical formulae that can summarize it (http://blog.westernpowders.com/2016/05/quantitative-ammunition-selection-ballistic-science-i-can-use/) without testing. HPing serves to increase expansion of the projectile in the target. This makes the cavity wider at the cost of potential penetration. On a thin skinned, thin bodied animals (small game up to bipedal primates), this is a worthwhile exchange as a bullet penetrating through the target doesn't do any additional damage. This exchange makes less sense with medium skinned medium bodied animals (deer). It it is a bad exchange with any thick skinned or thick bodied animal where maximum penetration is desirable. The size of the wound channel is the factor most related to rapid blood loss and death (after shot placement of course). The channel's size is a basically the volume of a cylinder, that is Pi X Radius^2 X length. Let's compare three options.

357 Magnum loaded with MP 359Hammer Small HP propelled by 13.5 grains of 2400 (1225 FPS) from a 5", 40oz, S&W 686.
This expands to about .65 in calibrated ballistic gel and penetrates to about 19 inches at 1200 FPS impact velocity and 13 inches at 900 FPS impact velocity (~100 yards). This translates to a wound volume of 6.3 cubic inches and 4.3 cubic inches respectively. In fact it may not even pass through a typical whitetail leaving only one hole to leak blood.

Next example is the same revolver with a 158 grain Hornady XTP pushed by 14.5 grains of 2400. This goes 1250 FPS at the muzzle and 950 FPS at 100 yards. This bullet will expand to around .55 and go 21-24" deep. This translates to a wound volume of 5 cubic inches and 5.7 cubic inches. It will probably pass through a smallish whitetail with a well placed broadside shot. It will probably leave two holes to leak blood from. These bullets cost around 20 cents a piece, and are an outstanding bargain for this kind of performance.

The 358429 even out of a 38 special penetrates over 28." But if a 24" standard is adopted this translates to only 2.4 cubic inch wound channel! Solids are not a great choice for 357 IMO.

Now lets compare it to a 44 Special level III load from a 6.5", 43 oz, S&W 624. This will drive a 255 grain 429421 to 1200 FPS with a charge of 17 grains of 2400 at the muzzle. It will be going around 900 FPS at 100 yards. This bullet is not expected to expand and therefore it will cut a .43 hole but it is expected to reliably penetrate through the animal from pretty much any angle, through bone, etc. If I take a figure of 24 inches of penetration this means the 44 special will produce a 3.5 cubic inch wound channel and two leaky holes reliably (this is 31% more than the 357 can offer with a solid). This is with approximately the same weight revolver, a longer sighting radius, and marginally more recoil. This is why the observed performance of solid 44s on deer is not all that impressive, but certainly is better than what 357 can offer. What is pointless IMO is superblasting 44s or 357s to 1400 FPS or greater. That extra velocity does little to nothing to improve performance. Unless the IMPACT velocity of a solid is >~1400 FPS you cannot expect significant expansion with an alloy hard enough to be launched at that velocity without leading and accuracy problems. It's all just a bunch of extra recoil. Those velocities also typically frag cast HPs. Sturdy JHPs like the XTP can usually handle it, though some are better than others.

Cast HPs or using a 240 grain XTP will offer substantially improved expansion in the 44 like the 357 but at the expense of penetration. Mind that 44s at this velocity will expand to three quarters of an inch or greater, far surpassing what 36 caliber bullets are capable of at any velocity. So anything gained by HPing is gained all the more with the larger bore as shown by 35W. But again the question of reliable penetration depth across the entire range arises. Unlike the 357, where some expansion is very important, even an un-expanded 44 makes a respectable wound volume. And so solids can be a good choice.

I am absolutely convinced that placing the shot over vital anatomy is more important than anything. The second most important thing is the projectile penetrating the animal. The third most important is the diameter of the wound channel. Features like 100% weight retention is nice too. After all, I eat these things. The XTP holds together very well, but weight loss of 20% is not unusual.

[megasupermagnum]

You already know I can't show you anything that you would accept as credible. I can tell you that you are far and away over thinking this. The testing you do is a great way to compare loads, but you still need the real world results.

I can tell you two things for certain. You do not need 24" of penetration in your ballistics gel to pass through a deer. Looking through some of your posts, loads that have penetrated a measly 13" in your gel, I have shot pass through's on deer. There is only a very small number of bullets I have not seen pass through. A white tailed deer are not tough, and they are not wide.

I can tell you for sure, that a 357 magnum, even vanilla 158 grain factory loads, will produce a hole almost identical to the one picture above, and exit the other side. No it won't penetrate 2' in gel, it might not even penetrate 2' through an animal, but it will go clean through the chest of a deer. And it does that from a gun 2/3rd the weight, with 1/2 the recoil of a 44 magnum or a hopped up 45 colt.

All that said, we all know a 44 special is a fine deer cartridge. I just don't see why you would hotrod it with a solid bullet. I'd be surprised if the bullet didn't penetrate 2' even with a 900 fps muzzle velocity.

One last thing, the H&G #503 (keith bullet), makes a fair size hole because it has a decent sized flat nose of .275". If you got a 357 bullet with a .275" meplat you could match the size of the hole. It would never match penetration of the 44 bullet, as it would be lighter, but both would penetrate through a deer from even extreme angles.

[Jtarm]

I believe both Skeeter, and Kieth blew up a few N Frame 44 specials. My understanding is the barrel threads are the same size as the 357 making for thinner forcing cone. Smith intentionally made the threaded portion thicker on the 69, compared to the 696 which had problems with split forcing cones. Another problem is the GP six shot has offset cylinder stop notches, which in a five shot the notches are over thinner cylinder than the 357. The Smith 686 six shot the cylinder notches are over a thin area of the cylinder, but not on the 69 because of the odd number capacity. Now enter the 686 plus, which is probably stronger than the 686.

If you blow up the GP Ruger will probably warranty it. Fingers, and eyes do not fall under warranty. IMO hot 44 special ammo should be used on a limited basis, hunting, or self defense.

I think Keith’s loads claimed more Colt SSAs than anything else.

[megasupermagnum]

I think Keith’s loads claimed more Colt SSAs than anything else.

Yes, Elmer never blew up an N frame, or a 44 special of any kind. It was two Colt's in 45 colt, that is the reason he went to the 44 special in the first place. As for the GP100, I'm no engineer, but the cylinder is not weak on these. It's a stout 5 shot cylinder. The forcing cone is the only question, and it's still about twice as thick as a Bulldog.

[35 Whelen]

I can tell you two things for certain. You do not need 24" of penetration in your ballistics gel to pass through a deer. Looking through some of your posts, loads that have penetrated a measly 13" in your gel, I have shot pass through's on deer. There is only a very small number of bullets I have not seen pass through. A white tailed deer are not tough, and they are not wide.

I can tell you for sure, that a 357 magnum, even vanilla 158 grain factory loads, will produce a hole almost identical to the one picture above, and exit the other side. No it won't penetrate 2' in gel, it might not even penetrate 2' through an animal, but it will go clean through the chest of a deer. And it does that from a gun 2/3rd the weight, with 1/2 the recoil of a 44 magnum or a hopped up 45 colt.

All that said, we all know a 44 special is a fine deer cartridge. I just don't see why you would hotrod it with a solid bullet. I'd be surprised if the bullet didn't penetrate 2' even with a 900 fps muzzle velocity.

One last thing, the H&G #503 (keith bullet), makes a fair size hole because it has a decent sized flat nose of .275". If you got a 357 bullet with a .275" meplat you could match the size of the hole. It would never match penetration of the 44 bullet, as it would be lighter, but both would penetrate through a deer from even extreme angles.

A couple of things here:

First, a good .357 bullet likely will penetrate a deer, if conditions are ideal. That means broadside shots only where no significant resistance such as muscle and bone are encountered. If ones shot is just a little off and a shoulder or leg bone is struck, a .357 bullet is going to suffer. The nice thing about a .43" solid SWC is its ability to out-penetrate smaller expanding bullets. As one who has used cast HP's on game and seen first-hand how well they work, I still prefer the security of added penetration if/when needed.

Two seasons ago I used my '92 carbine .357 on a doe and it was a disaster. I used the bullet/load pictured above only with the small HP. After three broadside shots through the lungs she ran a good ways and finally laid down and I finished her off with one in the neck. By the time I got her gutted, drug out of the field, walked to the truck, drove it back and got her loaded it was too dark for a post-mortem. I hate animals dying slow like that and I learned a lesson that I really should've already known.

I do feel you are correct in your assertion that the .44 Special doesn't really need to be hot-rodded for typical hunting. I sight my hunting loads (.43" 255 gr SWC at 950 fps and .45" 265-288 gr. SWC @ 950-1000 fps), to strike 1.5"-2.0" high at 50 yds. and they more or less strike POA at 75 yds., and at this point that's the furthest I'm comfortable shooting at game with open sighted revolvers. And FWIW, said bullet will still be moving almost 900 fps at that range, plenty fast enough for deer.

Regarding the weight issue, .357's, in similar size revolvers, will always be heavier than larger caliber revolvers simply because there's more metal in the smaller caliber. The revolvers with which I hunt most are a 4 3/4" Uberti's in .44 Special and .45 Colt, and I also have one in .357. Their weights are: .357- 41 oz.; .44 Special- 38 oz. and 45 Colt- 37 oz. The .357 is nowhere near 1/3 lighter than the larger caliber examples. While I was weighing I grabbed a 4" K-Frame Smith (Model 15) and even it weighs 33 oz., still not 2/3 the weight of any of the others.

So if you want to hunt with a .357, more power to you, but if you use it enough, the day will come when it will let you down as so many have learned already.

@curioushooter my HP alloy is 8.5-9.0 Bhn.

35W

[Rodfac]

Forget about your quest to see just how good the Ruger is unless you have enough funds for another Ruger laying around. Not to mention your eyes, hands and the safety of the guy next to you at the range.... Get another gun that's built for what you intend to do...This directed to the original OP...3+ years ago...but the warning still serves....YMMv, Rod

[onelight]

I think Keith’s loads claimed more Colt SSAs than anything else.

One of Elmers 45s was blown with black powder loaded in a a balloon head case under a heavy boolit.8-) the case head blew out and took the loading gate with it.

[curioushooter]

The testing you do is a great way to compare loads, but you still need the real world results.

Is the testing not in the real world? Gel is real stuff.

Look, I process about as many deer in a season (I do it semi-professionally with my wife who doesn't hunt) as some hunters will take in a lifetime. Granted, now that Indiana has moved to allowing rifle cartridges, I see far fewer 12 gauge slugs and 357s and 44s than I used to. I see a whole lot more rifles and broadheads now.

It was seeing these different real world wounds that made me turn onto gel so I could figure out what was actually going on.

Some of the most impressive deer stops I've personally have had are with 357 in a rifle. Were talking bang flops comparable to the 12 gauge slugs, but I think this is more to do with fortunate shot placement than anything. I've also used 44 mag rifles, and 30-30, 357 Max contender, 50 caliber round ball sidelock muzzloader, and 12 gauge Lee slugs. And I've seen a lot of crazy stuff brought to me. Little wimpy 95 grain 410 shotgun slugs kill deer just fine if everything is IDEAL. The thing is with my luck things are seldom ideal. The deer that likes to cover his lungs with a nice big oak tree and then winds you and walks off presenting only the chance of a so-called Texas Heart Shot (which I call a butt shot). This is not a shot I would typically take unless desperate because I don't care much for corn and bean salad in the venison. But this is "the real world" as you say. In this case having a solid 3 feet of penetration is about the only way to ensure you hit the vitals, and that will be delivered by a 44 special field load in a way that every combination of 357 revolver loads I've tested cannot.

[curioushooter]

I do feel you are correct in your assertion that the .44 Special doesn't really need to be hot-rodded for typical hunting. I sight my hunting loads (.43" 255 gr SWC at 950 fps and .45" 265-288 gr. SWC @ 950-1000 fps), to strike 1.5"-2.0" high at 50 yds. and they more or less strike POA at 75 yds., and at this point that's the furthest I'm comfortable shooting at game with open sighted revolvers. And FWIW, said bullet will still be moving almost 900 fps at that range, plenty fast enough for deer.

This bears repeating. I've tested a lot of gel and a very consistent take home message is that impact velocity between 800-1100 FPS sees a steady improvement in performance with cast hollowpoints while after about 1200 FPS IMPACT velocity the performance may actually decrease with too much expansion/insufficient penetration, fragmentation, etc. This said about the optimal MUZZLE VELOCITY for a hunting revolver used to a max of 100 yards or so is ~1200 FPS. The BC of most heavy for caliber SWCs like the 358429 and the 429421 is around .2. This results in about 900 FPS at 100 yards which is is plenty. Once below ~800 FPS IMPACT velocity, HPs probably will not open and even solids start to suffer from lack of momentum unless they are super heavy for caliber (like 200+ grain in 357 or 300+ grain in 44).

One of the great surprises of this conclusion is that 44 Mag is not materially better than a heavy (level II or level II) 44 special and that much of the last 60 years of revolver load development oriented towards extreme velocity is actually a step backwards. Unless you can get truly rifle-like impact velocities (like over 1600 FPS) it just seems to increase recoil, noise, and blast more than anything. This is why a 357 rifle or something like a 357 Max contender (which can easily send 158s over 1900 FPS and 180s past 1700) seemingly do things that revolvers just can't.

I too share the caution given open sighted revolvers, and certainly if shooting offhand. Sitting in a comfortable field position (the best way I've found is to sit like Ted Keith is depicted in 1961 Ed. of Sixguns with back curled against a tree knees bent and holding the hands which hold the revolver) or with shooting sticks I feel like 100 yards is do-able. With my Contender wearing an Ultradot I feel entirely comfortable past ranges where I can ethically take a shot (I cannot usually resolve whether short antlers are present or not past 100 yards without magnification). Every time I've tried to put a scope on a handgun eye relief issues have frustrated me, so I just don't try anymore. Scopes are for rifles IMO.

[Ruger45Bisley]

I've got a GP100 44 Special, the 3" version and once had the 5" full lug. I think they're pretty strong, can easily handle level 3 loads. I've had the GP100 10mm and measured the cylinder wall thickness both inside and out and it's essentially identical to Blackhawk 45 Colt. The thing is, 10mm can easily run at 37.5K and I'm sure some of the real hot 10mm pushes and even exceeds 40K. The cylinder walls on the Gp100 44 are much thicker internally but the external walls are slightly thinner, so I don't see why the GP100 44 couldn't handle 30K psi, but I'm not sure how many load that high with the 44 Special, so I'm sure the 25K Lv.3 loads are a-okay.

[JoeJames]

Thankfully bullets can expand if you let them. I don't believe in energy dump either. Still, a 158 grain 357 at 1500 fps or a 170 grain at 1400 fps will cut a larger wound channel and/or penetrate more than any comparable 44 special. I have not seen anything to prove that a 250 grain 44 hard cast bullet at 900 fps will penetrate any more than a 170 grain hard cast 357 at 1400 fps. You can push 44 special beyond it's limits, but you can push a 357 magnum beyond those limits too.

This is like the old 30-30 vs 44 magnum argument. By your logic 44 magnum crushes 30-30... but it doesn't. Right out of the muzzle you may have a point, but the farther you get from point blank, the more 30-30 beats the 44 magnum.

In Sixguns Elmer Keith discussed penetration tests on blocks of imitation bear muscle. 270 and 300 Magnum blew up in the first block. The 30-06 in the second, the 30-40 Krag 220 grain in the third block. "The 4 inch S&W 44 Special with Keith 250 grain bullet and 18.5 grains of 2400 in old style cases went right through three blocks of this material and lodged with the point well buried in the fourth block." ... "The only rifle loads that went through all four blocks were the old .45/70/500 grain lead bullets, smokeless Government contract load, and the .45/120/566 Sharps; both went right through all four blocks and kicked up dirt on the other side, then howled away."

[curioushooter]

I've got a GP100 44 Special, the 3" version and once had the 5" full lug. I think they're pretty strong, can easily handle level 3 loads.

Yea...you think. Maybe you should think again...and consider that the author of the idea of the Category II/III 44 Special pressure divisions now states plainly that L-frame Smiths should be used only with SAMMI spec (15,500 psi) 44 special loads (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?396837-It-pays-to-be-cautious).

I suspect you are focusing on the wrong matter...chamber wall thickness...the more critical dimension in my opinion is the thickness of the barrel where it threads into the frame. The GP100 like the S&W 696 uses a 357 sized hole in the frame and 357 OD diameter barrel. If you examine a S&W 69 (a L-frame 44 Magnum) it has a much larger hole in the frame with a correspondingly larger OD diameter barrel than the 686 (L-frame 357). K frame Smiths have mighty thin chambers and their bolt stop cuts are over the chamber and they endured 45K CUP 357s for decades with no reports to cylinders letting go...it was their barrel/forcing cone that was weakest link.

This said...I recommend caution with using any originally 357 (this would exclude the 357 Blackhawks, which were based on a 44 size frame to being with) sized factory firearm bored out to 44 Special with category II or III type loads. In 13 years or so we may find out that they just couldn't handle it long term. Just because a revolver doesn't explode does not mean you are not pushing it beyond its limits.

I do think that the 357 revolvers converted by skilled smiths will probably be ok since they do such a good job of making sure that everything is aligned, that threads aren't compressed, etc. Because these revolvers are put together better than a factory can they don't suffer as great of stresses even with the same power ammunition.

As for 10mm GPs...they haven't been around very long and 40 caliber leaves 14% more steel in the barrel than a 44 special does. A full powered 10mm is about 20-25% less powerful than a category III 44 special load as well.

[curioushooter]

This is like the old 30-30 vs 44 magnum argument. By your logic 44 magnum crushes 30-30... but it doesn't. Right out of the muzzle you may have a point, but the farther you get from point blank, the more 30-30 beats the 44 magnum.

To at least 100 yards the 44 mag bests 30-30 IMO, where about 90% of shots are taken in most places East of the Mississippi. It certainly bests it on anything bigger than a deer. Most 30-30 cast bullet loads are around 2000 FPS, and flat pointed bullets usually used in lever guns have hardly any better BC than 44 bullets do. I still have not found one satisfactory. I've gotten 240 grain jacketed and 265 grain cast bullets going 1700 FPS in Marlins with satisfactory accuracy (though the only deer I ever lost was to one of those 240 grain XTPs).