Savage 219 Action Strength

[richhodg66]

I admit to being a fan of the Savage 219 single shots, love my .22 Hornet and still have a .30-30 I haven't done much with.

Have seen a few on gunbroker and such that have been rechambered to other things, one in .219 Zipper, one in .256 Winchester and lately, a .219 Donaldson Wasp which I have always had a fascination for but never owned one.

Is this action strong enough for a high pressure cartridge like that? I would have guessed not, but now I wonder.

[pietro]

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Those actions are plenty strong enough for the Zipper, the Wasp, & the .256 - I've shot a .30-30 that was rechambered to .30-40 (Krag).

I just wouldn't recommend doing one in a higher-pressure cartridge, like the .308 0r .30-06 family of cartridges (from .243 to .358, etc).

As it is, I had to install a stop screw (head) into the top of the barrel of a grooved .30-30 to keep the scope from moving forward under recoil.

The only issue with re-chambering would be that the existing rifling twist may not exhibit the best accuracy for the "new" cartridge/chambering. [smilie=b:


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[Blackwater]

Some of those break open single shots are surprisingly strong, but it all depends on the metal they're made from, and also the metal on the lugs. Many will loosen up if subjected to much pressure, and really, the only way to find out is to try them. I doubt they're good candidates for a detonation any moreso than any other rifle, but with shotgun pressures running between 8 and @ 15K psi., they were never designed for high pressures. So it's really a "buyer beware" situation, and some loss should be expected when dealing with this type proposition. They're much better hunting guns than most would give them credit for being, though. Some friends when I was growing up would keep a 2nd shell in the fingers of their left hand (if right handed) and snap it open with a flick of their hands, and pop that 2nd shell in in very little time. Some got 2 birds on a covey rise. Just goes to show, if you don't tell a redneck he can't do something, he'll go on and do it anyway, just to see for himself if it can be done. Their small waist makes them very easy to carry in one hand at the balance point, and they're light, so carry very easily. In a lot of hunting, like turkey hunting, one shot is all you'll really get anyway, unless you're pretty darn lucky. Somebody once made a 10 ga. 3 1/2" mag. break open single shot for duck and turkey hunters, and I've always wanted one of those. Barrel was thick to give it wt., so recoil could be tolerated better. But I'd imagine it was still a bear to pull the trigger on.

I'd stop short at .30/30 and .38/55 if it were me, but braver sorts DO exist. But I figure it'd shear something before blowing up. I can't recall any experiments with them, so this is just going on what I've observed through the years with them. And like Mausers, that are essentially softer steel with hardened surfaces, they'd likely tend to give before blowing up, and it'd probably be wise to load by increments until you find that action's limits. Then again, there may not BE any real limits. I don't know what they are, and I'm just a bit over cautious, having blown up a gun once myself. Blowing up a gun will do that to ya'!

[Mk42gunner]

I don't have any idea what the pressure limits are for the 219 action, but I think it is telling that Savage never chambered them for anything with higher pressure than the .30-30.

The .22 Hornet that I have has a color case hardened action (or a really poor blue job). The question becomes is it colored over cast iron or steel, or forged steel. Also which version of the 219 are we talking about? There are four that I know of, without getting into the shotgun actions that the barrels will work on.

I guess this was a long-winded way of saying I wouldn't push these old actions very much.

Robert

[richhodg66]

Probably a good call. Truthfully, my Hornet 219 I never even load to Hornet potential.

There's a barrel for one on Ebay for .219 Donaldson Wasp which I have always wanted a rifle chambered for that for some odd reason.

[John Taylor]

A 12 gauge has about 5,000 pounds of bolt thrust, the 308 is around 8,000. I get calls quite often about re-barreling these old gun to some modern cartridge so I have done the numbers a couple times. Had one guy that wanted to put a 50 BMG on an old 10 gauge action. He got a little angry when I laughed. He said they put the 308 on H&Rs so it must be safe. That's when I told him the 50 BMG has 25,000 pounds of bolt thrust, He might as well hold a hand grenade next to his head.

[Clark]

If you scroll down far enough, you will see me put 92,000 psi Quickload in a 30-30 Savage 219L.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172049-Savage-219

That is a miserable 219. Last ones made. The older the better with 219s.

I had been through something similar with a Handi Rifle. I had help from my father, long time chief engineer gun desginer, and a mechanical engineer professor gun nut helped too.
I can now calculate gun stress. But nothing ever fails when predicted. It seems 1 millisecond pulses to not make steel yeild when the RC hardness tester suggests they will.
My father and the professor are now passed away, and I am no expert.

[Hardcast416taylor]

I got a 219 in .30-30 several years back at an estate sale. It had been the deer rifle of the deceased for many years I was told. My question is of the mentioned 4 models of the 219 how can I pin point which mine is. If this info helps, the swing lever is difficult to push open as it cocks the firing pin for the next shot. I have had it d/t and a low power old Weaver 3x sits on it now.Robert

[Mk42gunner]

IIRC the ones that cock with the top lever are the very first ones. Mine in .22 Hornet is that way, and it does not take any more effort to open than any other single shot shotgun I have ever used.

I have read that you really shouldn't dry fire these guns, the take down to replace the firing pin is pretty involved, not to mention finding parts.

I don't remember where I found the info on the web, and the computer I had then has since died. I do know if you search for Savage 219 there is a lot of winnowing that must be done to find any info.

Hope this helps,

Robert

[Outpost75]

Case in point, I have a Beretta Model 412 folding .410 shotgun for which John has done several rifle barrels for me in .45 ACP, .357 Magnum, and .44 Magnum, which have been completely satisfactory in every way. I wanted a .303 British rifle barrel and John ran the numbers and we both agreed that it probably would not stay tight with full-charge factory loads, so he recommended a .30-40 Krag barrel instead and this has worked extremely well. The barrel is a full 26" inches and has a half-rib with Picatinny rail as well as iron sights, and this has worked VERY well as my traveling hunting rifle which folds down and fits into a 2-suiter suitcase to go onto the airplane and it doesn't look like a gun case, so is less likely to get nicked. Has killed all manner of North American big game from elk and moose on down. I also pack the .410 shotgun barrel or a handgun caliber barrel of choice and this makes for me the IDEAL traveling hunting rifle with great versatility!

Amazing what an extra 4 inches of barrel will do for velocity.

I get 2350 fps with Speer 200-grain Hot-Cor softpoint using loads listed for the Krag in Speer No. 13... Also very accurate with ordinary 180-grain factory loads.

[pietro]

I got a 219 in .30-30 several years back at an estate sale.

My question is of the mentioned 4 models of the 219 how can I pin point which mine is.

If this info helps, the swing lever is difficult to push open as it cocks the firing pin for the next shot.




There are only 4 different models, the 219, the 219B, the 219C & the 219L.

The earliest Model 219's receiver was marked "Model 219"

The Model 219B's receiver was marked "Model 219B"

The Model 219L had a side-mounted opening lever.

The early model (219) were striker-fired, and were re-cocked by the opening action of the top lever, which incidentally released the barrel lock so the barrel could be swung open, and the shell ejector tripped off.

On all subsequent models, there is a cocking lever inside the front of the action body, which lies alongside the barrel's locking lug when the gun is closed, or in the firing position.

The cocking lever/arm is raised, re-cocking the gun, only when the barrel is swung open (not by the top lever opening) - by a spring-loaded stud located in the side of the later model's barrel's locking lug(s).

BTW

All Savage 219 barrels are NOT interchangeable - the early/Model 219 no-cocking lug barrels will not re-cock the later 219B/219c/219L guns - burdensome, to say the least.



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[Hardcast416taylor]

Pietro. Much appreciated info.Robert