question

[johnson1942]

who and what kind of people does the bible say we should as born again christians stay away from 100 percent? the bible says, CARNAL CHRISTIANS. they are worse than unbelievers. christian who have turned back to sin and worse sin than before they were saved. we have a mind to tolerate these kinds of christains and give them chance after chance. how ever the bible says do no be around them or go near them or tolerate them. they are a worse cancer than the unbeliever. turn them over to God and let him deal with them.

[Bzcraig]

Not intended to be contentious, how do you define carnal Christian! Since it's not a term used the the Bible I'd like to understand your context.

[shoot-n-lead]

A question that I have is concerning turning back to sin...

Do any of us, as a Christian, live a sin free life?

If not, have we turned back to sin?

[1johnlb]

Devisive men and foolish talking is what I know of in scripture that it says to stay away from.



Romans 16
17*Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them.*18*For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.*



Titus 3
9*But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.10*Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition,*11*knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.

[1johnlb]

A question that I have is concerning turning back to sin...

Do any of us, as a Christian, live a sin free life?

If not, have we turned back to sin?

You first have to ask yourself a question, did you willingly turn back to sin? If the answer is yes, there you have it, Yes. If the answer is no, but you sinned because of the weakness of your flesh, welcome to humanity and the very reason Christ died for us. Christ came to fulfill the law, which He did 100%. Now IF any man be in Christ he is a new creation. If you have been saved by grace and believe in our Lord Jesus Christ, you are dead to sin. Now sin no longer has deminion over you, because you do not live by law but according to the grace given by our Lord. Once the penalty for sin has been payed there is no longer a penalty. You were bought with a price, payed for by the most valuable thing God had, His Son (The Word).

Soooo then if the price of sin has been payed, how much more do you need to pay? All He ask of us is to repent, believe, follow and love. Be faithful and don't fall into the trap that religion and satan designed to keep you from His presence.

[1johnlb]

The first covenant was cut with laws kept by man in the flesh.

The last was made with the Lamb of God only after He fulfilled the righteouse requirement of the first, with Blood.

You can't mingle the 2, either you live by law or grace not both.

[Bzcraig]

Devisive men and foolish talking is what I know of in scripture that it says to stay away from.

The reason I ask the question is; when used together the words 'carnal' and 'Christian' are an oxymoron. It's impossible to be both carnal and Christian. Not sure what the above quote means: are you saying my question was devisive?

[1johnlb]

The reason I ask the question is; when used together the words 'carnal' and 'Christian' are an oxymoron. It's impossible to be both carnal and Christian. Not sure what the above quote means: are you saying my question was devisive?

Your post is the only one of the 3 that I didn't post about.



: are you saying my question was devisive?

No

[1johnlb]

But to confront your question. I would have to ask, have you been to church lately? I've been in a lot that I could say carnal christains about, and to be completely honest even myself at times. Thank God for grace

[USMC87]

What I can say is if they turned back as though they were never saved it is because they were never of us to begin with, Christ said in John ch 10 that His sheep hear His voice and follow no other. Christ also said He knows His sheep and they know Him, I do space myself from those who show no marks of Christ and who once professed and now can't be found with a search warrant during worship. I do witness to them if God provides the opportunity, But yes we are to be separate from the world and not be intermingled with them. This question could go on and on but the answer is to come out from among them and be a separate peculiar people who bears the marks of their Lord and Savior who Romans ch 8 says God will conform us to His image.

[Preacher Jim]

the Bible does condemn luke warm or leaving your first love. that would be the best definition of carnal minded. the real problem is have they honestly turned their heart to Jesus as savior or did they just walk in and out of a Baptism.

[johnson1942]

paul uses the word carnal 4 times. i knew i would raise a storm when i posted this but its true, carnal christians will drag you down and ruin any church. carnal christains have no spirtual understanding what so ever, they practice every sin of the world. they argue and cause fights and will not come up to spirtual levels of christians moving on and up in christ. they are worse than unbelievers as they think they have the keys to the kingdom and knowledge about every thing and they have nothing. carnal christians are just what the word says, if they ever started in christ they never ever moved on but sin more now than ever and now want to take control and rule over every body. stay away from them, dont let them take over your church, and do not be intimidated by them. the very name of the Lord Jesus Christ is way more powerful then they ever will be.

[Blackwater]

Well, I've heard this theology before, but if it's true, how do we reconcile that with the temptations the disciples met? Peter denied he knew Christ three times before repenting for the last time. And if it's true, why was there a necessity to establish rules for repentance? Do Christians sin? I think they do, but only occasionally, and rarely. But when they do, they can repent. Why else would Christ have established rules for repentance?

[johnson1942]

i am not talking about what your talking about. im talking about those who say they are christians, maybe they are and maybe they are not, who lives worse than a sinner that is in the world. they can repent but for the most part they have willfully chosen the way they are going and still pretend they are christians. they want to interfere in real christian business, but do not want to live the life and they have no real understanding of things of the spirit. i will give you an example. i went to a revival in the 70/s in a small pentacostal church. a so called hot preacher from calif. came and held a week long service. their was no meat in his sermons, i could tell he was phony and he got in the 70/s 30,000 dollars out of that church and went back to calif. to live a life of sin and plan his next robbery. he avoided me during those services as he knew i had him pegged. paul says you can know them by their works.im not talking about a brother you isnt as enlightened as you, im talking about the many who say they are christians but are not walking the walk and doing that on PURPOSE, not because they are weak, but on purpose. there is a difference. i would never isolate a brother who needs help, but those on purpose christians who are worse than the worst in the world are a different story. they dont realize that anyone who is saved can in prayer in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ disrupt there, what they think, is a self centered secure world. ive seen that happen and then they loose it as God has taken over and they dont like it. carnal christians may tear apart my methodist church. if they win a vote for gays to be allowed as pastors and gay marriage to be declared normal in the methodist church then that will tear it apart. i and many in my church as well as my pastor will break off and never ever be apart of that.

[1johnlb]

Do Christians sin? I think they do, but only occasionally, and rarely. But when they do, they can repent. Why else would Christ have established rules for repentance?

The definition of an act of sin has not changed, but we have and the way we are to think is surposed to (mind of Christ ). If we are law and sin minded we will continue in the death that it produced.



Romans 6
3*Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?*4*We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death*in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5*For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6*For we know that our old self*was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin*might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin 7*because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

8*Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9*For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead,*he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.*10*The death he died, he died to sin*once for all but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11*In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.12*Therefore do not let sin reign*in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.*




Paul was preaching a death to self, but it is very important to notice how this death took place. Paul was dead through what Jesus did. Paul experienced this death by simply reckoning what had already happened through Christ to be so (Romans 6:11).

There are people today who have taken the “dying to self” doctrine to an extreme, and instead of being free of self, they are totally self-centered. They constantly think of self. It may be in all negative terms, but it is still self-centered. Truly humble people are ones who are Christ-centered. Dying to self is not a hatred for self but rather a love of Christ more than self.

There are false religions that preach a denial of self. The legalistic Jews Paul was preaching against did that. Paul was not just dead to self; he was alive to God. A focus on the denial of self without the enthronement of Christ leads to legalism.

[Blackwater]

OK. I understand now, I think. Thanks. Things like this often hinge on the meaning of the words we use. It's SO hard to speak precisely, and we all are misconstrued from time to time. It's frustrating, but I guess that's why Christ admonished us to "study to show thyself approved." It's SO good to be able to have a place where we CAN discuss things like this! Most churches are too PC to discuss most anything that might bring about dissension. So ..... most folks never really state what they really think, or ask questions that might be taken the wrong way, and in being timid in that, they deny themselves the opportunity to truly find answers to the things they want and need to know. This chapel is one GREAT place! I thank God for it repeatedly.

Many concepts in Christianity are easily misunderstood, and among the more PC or hot-tempered, this gives rise to unnecessary dissensions and rifts among us, which is in direct opposition to what Christ intended for us to do and be like. This Chapel is a very nurturing and edifying bunch of guys, whose intentions are as pure as I think we can achieve while wearing these soon-to-be-shed bodies in this realm. Thanks to all of you!

[1johnlb]

My appoligies to Johnson for robbing his thread.

Blk water
The church has a hard time teaching the fullness of the message of grace and understandably so because it's hard to wrap the carnal mind around the concept and the church is so scared the rest of the world is going to run wild, to late for that. Romans chapters 5-8 taught it as was as Paul in many of his epistles.


*Romans 7
20*Now if I do what I will not*to do,*it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

What is he saying? Well the flesh will always have sin, but you are no longer in the flesh IF indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.

There is no sin where there is no law. Remember the law was made for the flesh, 1st covenant, which Jesus summed all up in love. But we are no longer in the flesh but in Christ IF His Spirit lives in us. And because of the circumcision of the heart we practice bringing our flesh into the obedience of Christ, thus if we do what we will not to do it is no longer I who do it but sin that dwells in the weakness of our flesh.

When Jesus entered the garden to pray He asked Peter and the others to pray, but they slept. He made a statement " the Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak". He was fully aware of what lived in our flesh, thus why He took all of our sins to the cross. So that through Him we might live. Soo here we are no longer judged according to the flesh but according to the Spirit and because of that circumcision of the heart the Spirit deals with our Spirit.



Hebrews 8
I will put my laws in their minds
****and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
****and they will be my people.
11*No longer will they teach their neighbor,
****or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know Me
****from the least of them to the greatest.
12*For I will forgive their wickedness
****and will remember their sins no more.

If we live according to the flesh we will die, that's law 1st covenant.

But if we live according to the Spirit we will live, that's grace. He gives us His Spirit if He hasn't we are not His at least not yet, unsubmitted.

[1johnlb]

Could we be considered carnal and a Christain if we in fact haven't come unto the mind of Christ. Having old mind sets and old ways of thinking. Sometimes it seems so many stop at the cross. When the cross is just the beginning of our new life.

[Boaz]

I have enjoyed the reading in this thread . Many rabbit trails to chase down here . But ! In the end we would all pretty much agree and understand . Had to fight the urge to 'contribute' but ya'll are doing great ! Thank you for affirming commonality of thought , scripture given , personal experience and heck Just standing up to be counted .....not enough are doing that these days . GOD bless you if your explaining or seeking answers . Dang I love questions and different views , LOL that comes from a hard headed Independent Baptist . Thank you and proceed , it's a good thread !

[johnson1942]

what i didnt want to do is make the born again christians who are dealing with their holyness every day and going on in christ make them selves think they are carnal. you are not. you will know a carnal christian when you see them. they are the conartist, the ones who preach neo christian gospel. who are in it for the money. some really believe what they preach but it is false to the core. remember they may be spirit filled but not the Holy spirit but the other one. if they preach a gosple that strays from the bible then they are false and carnal. you know them when you see them, they are in high and low places. pray against them and dont put your saddle on them. they will just bring you grief. there are brothers who need to be encouraged but give no support to the carnal. never ever ever take the sins of others on your self. you are only accountable for your sin. never ever for anyone elses. conartist do a thing of giving their guilt to you. if your helping someone along and they try to lay their guilt on you, never ever accept it and let them know your not. again you are only accountable for your sin, no one elses, no matter how close they are to you. i have delt with people all my life like this and they do not like it when they can not control. also dont show anger of any kind. they love anger as that is a way of control for them. the bible say if you dont show anger it will heap hot coals on their head. again dont accept their guilt and dont get angry. move on and dont let them into your life. think about it, you know a carnal christian when you meet or see them. i have to honestly say the sioux language has a word for these kind of people that is better than any word in american english. it is slu slu da. it means so covered in slime that no one can hang on to them. Know any body like that?

[Boaz]

Agree baring the Indians , we are the same . No need for division ,. Indians or not , we are the same .

[1johnlb]

Paul’s “old man” was dead through Christ (Romans 6:2-11). He was truly free to live, but it wasn’t actually Paul who was living–it was Christ living through him. Paul had learned the secret of victorious Christian living; it is not us living for Jesus, but Jesus living through us.

Failure to understand this simple truth is at the root of all legalism and performance mentality. The Law focuses on the outer man and tells it what it must do. Grace focuses on the inner man and tells it what is already done through Christ. Those who are focused on what they must do are under Law. Those who are focused on what Christ has done for them are walking under grace.

The Christian life is not just hard to live–it’s impossible to live in our human strength. The only way to walk in victory is to let Christ live through us.

Another quote from a commentary that struck me amazed. Could he be right that Paul had found the secret to victorious Christian life. Could it be the dividing line between carnal and spiritual Christains. Possibly why some seem to get sucked back into a law mind set or just don't move beyond the cross.

I once heard my pastor comment that many in the church try to clean themselves from the outside in, but Christ cleans the man from the inside out.

[Blackwater]

Nothing gets me irked as quickly or as thoroughly as those who, from the pulpit, advance PC theology and willfulness as being "Biblical." And it's far too common. More common, though, are those preachers/ministers who advance PC theologies more subtly, simply because of fear that the straight Truth will be too much for some in the congregation to endure, with repercussions for the church as a whole. It's a shame that those with the "deeper pockets" can influence a whole church this way.

And yet, I deeply admire those church leaders who have to deal with these very real issues. Churches DO have an element of "business" within them IF they're to survive, and money is always a twisted question to have to answer. My own church has dealt with this issue on a number of occasions, but has almost always decided to go with the Word rather than give in to "outside influences," including money. We're a very much "average" group, and nobody has really deep pockets. Those who have in the past, and tried to use that to control what was said in the pulpit didn't fare very well, and soon left. I'm proud and humbled by that. It's probably the most thorny question many churches will have to deal with.

Smaller churches, which are common in my area, are usually just continuations of small community churches started way back in the horse and buggy days, and their congregation is generally composed of folks who grew up in that church, and want to see it continue forward. But they sure do have some financing problems, and that usually means they can't pay a preacher very well. This in turn usually means they hire either a "part time preacher" who has a day job, or they sometimes just have church sermons every other Sunday. It's a value judgment only they can make.

My own church has grown quite a bit, especially since it burned some time ago now. Another local church had a number of deacons and members leave that church, due to the way the generally well thought of preacher handled the money there, and wouldn't let ANYONE see the books except he and the bookeeper. I was concerned when it grew so quickly and by such a degree, but my fears proved unfounded, and the folks we picked up from that church have proven to be real assets to ours. We've been very blessed that way, but I think our reputation is pretty good. I think that's one of the reasons we have attracted so many from so many sources.

Our preacher is "mannerly," but doesn't shy away from the hard issues. He may pull his punches, so as to be heard instead of offending, but he never turns away from his best understanding of the Word. We've been VERY blessed by his pastorship. He's also a hunter, and I just did some work on one of his rifles. He also goes up north to hunt mule deer and/or elk once a year, and usually does it totally alone. I think he mostly just likes getting out, totally alone in God's wonderful creations, where he can think, and play that ancient game of seeing if he could survive without supermarkets and central heat and air. And he does pretty good at it, too. This man understands God and God's nature, including "human nature, as good as any preacher I've ever seen hereabouts. I'm SO thankful for him.

I've sat through a lot of sermons that I was sure were motivated more at making the congregation like the preacher, rather than the word he was delivering, that I truly value this kind of preacher. My grandboys are close to him and his son, our asst. preacher and youth leader, and they often stay after hours to play a little basketball or something. They have a blast, and it's good to see our young ones have a preacher and youth leader that can and do have a lot of fun. The dour, sulky kind of preacher has never appealed to me. I think, with all that God gave us to enjoy, that He has always intended for us to be happy and satisfied. Add in to that, the fact that all his advice and instruction seems inevitably and ultimately directed at showing us HOW to be happy and satisfied, in a very on-going basis, and I cannot imagine any reason for any of us to be dour and sulky. It was once "fashionable" and rather expected for preachers to present that sort of attitude and demeanor, but that's again, letting the expectations of the congregation control the church's head's presentation.

One of the best sermons I've ever heard was as a teenager, when an ex-moonshiner preached a revival. I was anxious to go hear this man. He dressed in overalls, and thought nothing of not wearing a suit and tie. And his message was genuinely from the heart. How could it not be in his case, where there seemed very obviously to be a real repentance from his former ways? That man KNEW whereof he spoke, because he had walked on that side of the fence, and knew the terrain and effects all too well. Everyone there loved him and wanted him to come back. I don't recall what happened to him, but that wasn't to be. I think our sitting preacher was afraid he'd take "his" church away from him!

The search for real wisdom in Christ is a life-long one, and I doubt any of us have ever come to be satisfied with what we know. That's why we keep searching so diligently and faithfully. When you get a really good taste of what Christianity really is, how could one NOT want much, much more of it? It's edifying, satisfying and so very comforting and amazing. It's just natural to seek to know more and better. This may be the real mark of a Christian?