.30 Carbine Blackhawk v. .327 Fed Mag Blackhawk

[jski]

Been bantering back and forth on another site about the merits of the .30 Carbine v. the .327 Fed Mag as pistol rounds. Looking at the data it seems apparent that the .30 Carbine is ballistically superior. Just visit the Hodgdon reloading data website.

With a case capacity of 21 v. 19 gr of H2O, the .30 Carbine simply has more space for more powder. And when you take into consideration the space available after seating comparable bullets, the disparity is even greater.

Hence, we see Buffalo Bore offering .30 Carbine rounds with 125 gr hard cast (BHN 21), gas checked, fat nose bullets --- primarily targeting the Blackhawk community.

One things that seems universally acknowledged is the .30 Carbine Blackhawk is accurate, VERY accurate.

Comments?

To be honest, I must admit, I'm not that experienced with the .327.

[contender1]

I think most of us that own both can agree in general with your data. HOWEVER,,, one thing often lamented about the 30 Carbine is in reloading,,, it headspaces on the case mouth,,, where the 327 has a rimmed case. The 327 is easier to reload & not have issues with the headspace.
Also,, the bullet selection is more limited for the 30 carbine due to the MI rifles & their uses there. With the 327,,, you have a fair number of choices now,,, as well as many cast options. I have a 327 mold that throws a slug at about 135 grns,,, and when it is used,,, a lot of thump hits the target.

But I load my guns for accuracy when developing a round for a purpose. I'm not looking for barn burner loads,,, I match the bullet to it's use & work up a load for accuracy. As such,, most often,, case capacity isn't an issue.

And a NM 30 Carbine Blackhawk CAN be set up to use the 32-20 brass,,, which does give you the edge over the 327 and a rimmed case to load. (You can't use an OM for this,,, due to the gun design.)

[Thumbcocker]

.30 Carbine BH can be finicky until you get everything right. Then it is an excellent pistol and is SCARY accurate out to 100 yards or more.

[RJM52]

I have both...a 6.5" Freedom Arms 97 and OM Blackhawk...

When it comes to reloading I much prefer the .327...with the right powder one doesn't loose much in velocity if comparing a 7.5" barrel to a 7.5" barrel...

The only bullet I'm currently using in both is the Accurate 31-120S. It is a 120 grain flat point with a plain base. Getting 1400 from the .327 and 1480 from the .30 Carbine. Bullets are sized .313 for the .327 and .309 for the .30 Carbine.

Bob

[Wally]

I must be lucky...have a Ruger .30 BHK and never had an issue loading for it with cast bullets. Using a TC die I remove the mouth bell and never had a single misfire with it. It is very accurate and does very well even at long ranges. I use the 311411 & 311008 Lyman cast bullets. Others have had issues. I have never trimmed my brass for it..it works so well I just leave it as it is. I do believe that the >30 carbine is more powerful than the federal .327 Magnum as well.

[dragon813gt]

Don't you love "caliber wars"? I have a bunch of 327s. One main thing that it has going for it is that it can shoot multiple different cartridges. This gives you a big spread in power. 30 Carbine is meant to run at full tilt. Buy whichever one you want. They're both screamers.

[dverna]

Caliber wars are fun if they do not get personal. Debating the merits of each round is a good exercise.

I have a .30 carbine so I would get the .30 cal pistol just for simplicity.

I do not see an overwhelming justification for one over the other. The .327 may be a tad easier to reload (rimmed and can be crimped) so that would matter to some. But if you can reload a 9mm, the .30 is just longer. The marginally better performance of the .30 would not sway me but it may others.

Don Verna

[Tracy]

And a NM 30 Carbine Blackhawk CAN be set up to use the 32-20 brass,,, which does give you the edge over the 327 and a rimmed case to load. (You can't use an OM for this,,, due to the gun design.)
Why not?

[Tackleberry41]

Seems a hard thing to argue the one is hotter than the other. Any info I found in a quick google is apples to oranges. As 30 carbine data was always based on an M1 carbine and an 18in barrel. While the 327 was in a pistol.

Basic reloading shows that more powder capacity w equal bullet weights, usually means more velocity. BUT, theres a big pressure difference. Carbine is listed as 35,500psi, the 327 fed is 45,000psi. Less powder but more pressure so may be dang near the same or the 327 has a very slight edge on FPS.

[saleen322]

Seems a hard thing to argue the one is hotter than the other. Any info I found in a quick google is apples to oranges. As 30 carbine data was always based on an M1 carbine and an 18in barrel. While the 327 was in a pistol.

Basic reloading shows that more powder capacity w equal bullet weights, usually means more velocity. BUT, theres a big pressure difference. Carbine is listed as 35,500psi, the 327 fed is 45,000psi. Less powder but more pressure so may be dang near the same or the 327 has a very slight edge on FPS.

This is what I found as well. Comparing a 7.5" Blackhawk 30 carbine to a 6.5" Blackhawk 327 had the 327 going just a little faster with similar weight bullets but so close it was negligible. Change the guns for two different examples (or play with different powders) of the same model and the results could be reversed. Both good rounds and I think someone would be happy with either.

[Nueces]

Why not?

The old 3-screw Blackhawk 30 Carbines have what the S&W folks call 'recessed' cylinders. They are full length, back to the recoil plate, so they will not accept the rim of a 32-20 case, unless one runs a chamber reamer in to cut a rim rebate.

Mine is a 4 digit early one and I used to wonder what in the heck everyone was on about saying they could use 32-20 brass. Well, the newer cylinders are shortened enough at the rear to accommodate the case rims. Still prefer my old beauty, though. Neener.

[9.3X62AL]

I've had BHs in 30 U.S. Carbine for most of my adult life. With loads they like, they can be SCARY-accurate. My current example's excellent dimensional integrity, stellar accuracy, and flexible performance (shoots well at 800-1500 FPS) are the principal reasons I haven't explored the 327 Federal options--and I am a total way-gone enthusiast for mid-caliber handguns.

The subject of 30 U.S. Carbine's "intrinsic accuracy" doesn't get much discussion. I had a Marlin Model 62 lever gun in 30 Carbine for a time, and its accuracy rivaled that of any semi-auto carbine I was acquainted with. In fact--distance for distance, my Blackhawks could meet or beat out the Carbine to 100 yards. I think the CARTRIDGE has potential, for sure.

I imagine that someone somewhere has chambered a falling block or bolt action for the caliber, though I have not read about same. It would be an interesting project to undertake, though as a varmint or "fun" gun I don't know how much commercial viability the idea would have. It would equate somewhat to a high-order 32/20. If anyone has info on such a past or present undertaking, I would enjoy hearing about it.

[rintinglen]

My only observation is that the Black hawk is much heavier than the Single 7, and in my observation it is not as accurate as the 327 in a Single 7. I have seen ignition problems with Carbine ammo in the Ruger. Now I am sure that someone will have had a different experience, and will post accordingly, but i have never before heard of the 30 Carbine being praised for its accuracy in anything except a TC contender. There, it has been described as doing great things.

[mcdaniel.mac]

If I had an M1 Carbine, Super Enforcer, or similar rifle then that would be the answer. With the Henry .327 Fed carbines on the horizon, I foresee a Ruger or two in the same, and quite likely a contender barrel as well

[P Flados]

Both have the potential to be accurate

For those that stick to SAAMI pressures, the 327 can have an advantage with shorter barrels, the 30 carbine case capacity probably gives it an edge with longer barrels.

For those that reload based on gun strength, the 30 case capacity will give it an edge in max potential every time.

From my readings, the 30 carbine was pushed hard by some for use in big bore IHMSA. It performed good enough at the range, but heavy loading caused more than typical case stretch and short case life.

Cost of new starline brass is currently higher than it ought to be for both.

For most, the 327 will have plenty to do everything they want. The 30 carbine would not "extend" the usefulness any measurable amount.

With a single action revolver, the rim does not matter as much but in other platforms it can matter a lot. However, if you are likely to eventually want multiple guns in the same caliber, the 327 is probably better for most.

The 327 rim allows for less potential difficulties in reloading, allows for normal use in DA revolvers and is a help in break open singleshots and levers.

For versatility, guns in 327 have a distinct advantage.

[frkelly74]

I have always wanted a black hawk in 30 Carbine. I have not ever had the money when one was available though. I ain't dead yet though.

[Harry O]

The subject of 30 U.S. Carbine's "intrinsic accuracy" doesn't get much discussion. I had a Marlin Model 62 lever gun in 30 Carbine for a time, and its accuracy rivaled that of any semi-auto carbine I was acquainted with. In fact--distance for distance, my Blackhawks could meet or beat out the Carbine to 100 yards. I think the CARTRIDGE has potential, for sure.



This may be a little off topic, but comparing my M-1 Carbine and Marlin Model 62 (both in .30 Carbine), there is no comparison. The accuracy of the Marlin wins hands down. In fact, it and my Marlin 1894CL in 32-20 are about as equal as can be concerning power and accuracy. Both are great. The only problem I had with my Model 62 is that it has a tight chamber, particularly in case length. It was much more picky than my M-1 Carbine. After trimming everything and working on my handloading details, that is no longer a problem. Don't have a Blackhawk to compare them with, though.

[contender1]

Tracy,,, Nueces has answered the question. The cylinders are cut different in the OM vs. the NM. I only own OM 30 Carbine Blackhawks,,, but I also have several 32 cal Rugers,,, including the 327 Blackhawk,,, and the Single-Seven 327. I also own a Buckeye convertible in 32-20 & 32 H&R.

[jski]

The data below is directly from Hodgdon's data website (http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol) for pistol reloading.


.30 Carbine with 100 gr bullet
Maximum Load H110
Grains 15.5
Velocity (ft/s) 1,762
Pressure 36,100 CUP


.327 Fed Mag with 100 gr bullet
Maximum Load H110
Grains 13.2
Velocity (ft/s) 1,525
Pressure 38,500 PSI
100 grains was the only common bullet weight for this data set.

BTW, SAAMI specs: max pressure for the .30 Carbine: 40K PSI, for the .327 Mag: 45K PSI.

[beagle]

Well, I'll weigh into this discussion. I've owned two .30 Carbine Blackhawks, a Buckeye .32 Mag/.32-20 combo and two Ruger SS .32 Mags. I've loaded about every combination of bullet in the .30 Carbine Ruger that it will accept including Paco Kelley's 311440 150 grain long range loads. If you love tinkering and reloading, by all means get a .30 Carbine. It's picky and takes special care and a lot of patience but it is accurate. Me, I now own one Ruger SS in .32 Mag and get along just fine and my bald spot is slowly going away (and appearing at another place, BTW)./beagle

[trapper9260]

I say what is the over all thing that one is looking to do with it. As for me, I have the 327 BH.I am able to shoot more then one different round in it, so it works for me.

[jski]

I reload and here are the ingredients to my secret recipe for a proper .30 Carbine pistol (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/13/0/19/DealFrame/DealFrame.cmp?bm=603&BEFID=96424&acode=635&code=635&aon=&crawler_id=523588&dealId=FkcIwW19At08nE9oVNJPJw%3D%3D&searchID=&url=http%3A%2F%2Fads.midwayusa.com%2Fproduct%2F264 626%2Fhornady-lock-n-load-ap-progressive-press-automatic-case-feeder-plate-large-pistol%3Fcm_mmc%3Dpf_ci_ebay-_-Reloading%2B-%2BMetallic%2BReloading%2BPresses-_-Hornady-_-264626%26sdc_id%3DeBay&DealName=Hornady%20Lock-N-Load%20AP%20Progressive%20Press%20Automatic%20Case %20Feeder%20Plate%20Large%20Pistol&MerchantID=523588&HasLink=yes&category=0&AR=-1&NG=1&GR=1&ND=1&PN=1&RR=-1&ST=&MN=msnFeed&FPT=SDCF&NDS=1&NMS=1&NDP=1&MRS=&PD=0&brnId=2455&lnkId=8070676&Issdt=170204051936&IsFtr=0&IsSmart=0&dlprc=27.99&SKU=264626) round:


14-15 gr of Hodgdon H110
CCI small mag (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/13/0/19/DealFrame/DealFrame.cmp?bm=603&BEFID=96424&acode=616&code=616&aon=&crawler_id=523588&dealId=jqM4TqIDsI5uyIux1BOslw%3D%3D&searchID=&url=http%3A%2F%2Fads.midwayusa.com%2Fproduct%2F283 276%2Fcz-magazine-scorpion-evo-3-s1-9mm-luger-30-round-polymer-translucent%3Fcm_mmc%3Dpf_ci_ebay-_-Gunsmithing%2B-%2BMagazines%2B-%2BPistol%2B-%2B11%252B%2BRounds-_-CZ-_-283276%26sdc_id%3DeBay&DealName=CZ%20Magazine%20Scorpion%20EVO%203%20S1%2 09mm%20Luger%2030-Round%20Polymer%20Translucent&MerchantID=523588&HasLink=yes&category=0&AR=-1&NG=1&GR=1&ND=1&PN=1&RR=-1&ST=&MN=msnFeed&FPT=SDCF&NDS=1&NMS=1&NDP=1&MRS=&PD=0&brnId=2455&lnkId=8070676&Issdt=170204051936&IsFtr=0&IsSmart=0&dlprc=19.99&SKU=283276). rifle primers
115 gr hard cast (BHN 21, 22), gas checked bullets (http://www.brownells.com/search/index.htm?k=bullets) or 110 gr Berry's plated bullets (http://www.brownells.com/search/index.htm?k=bullets)
Starline brass

[Green Frog]

I always wanted a RBH in 30 Carbine, but felt like I'd do as well with the 32-20 version of it in the Buckeye Special Combo 32 Model. After I got it, I lost interest pretty quickly and foolishly sold it (stop me if you've heard that tale before!) so now I have a Uberti SAA in 32-20 to scratch that itch :Fire: and a BH 8-shooter in 327 to get the maximum out of the .311-.313 sized bullets. :2gunsfiring_v1:

30 Carbine? That round belongs in a carbine! :mrgreen:

[9.3X62AL]

HERESY, Froggie. Heresy. :-)

W-W brass--Rem #6-1/2 primer--5.5 x Unique--Lee Soup Can (92/6/2 alloy) @ .309" (in my BH). Velocities are in the 1050-1075 range, and these aren't the eardrum drillers that some loads can be in this revolver.

A thing I learned in the Marlin M-62 that translated directly into the BHs--if you want good accuracy, you need good bullets. FMJ/RN are open-based and aren't subject to very stringent QC, given that most are to be fired in Carbines whose accuracy potential is less than encouraging. The hunting softpoints generally shoot better, sometimes a LOT better. The Lee Soup Can has been its best cast bullet to date, though at its load strength the gas check is likely superfluous.

I haven't yet sacrificed any 32/20 cases for reforming and trimming to fit the 30 Carbine charge holes. I might try that in the near future, but with 3 revolvers and 1 rifle in 32/20 and one revolver in 30 Carbine, well.......

[jski]

I believe the .30 Carbine is a far better pistol cartridge than a rifle cartridge. The Blackhawk is inherently more accurate than the carbine. I have 2 carbines and at 50 yrds I can maintain tighter groupings centered more closely on the bullseye with the Blackhawk than with either carbine. All from the bench.

In addition, the .30 Carbine Blackhawk may be the most accurate pistol bar none ... tho I'm willing to concede some (few) could match it.

The .30 Carbine reaches its full potential in the Blackhawk.

[54bore]

I believe the .30 Carbine is a far better pistol cartridge than a rifle cartridge. The Blackhawk is inherently more accurate than the carbine. I have 2 carbines and at 50 yrds I can maintain tighter groupings centered more closely on the bullseye with the Blackhawk than with either carbine. All from the bench.

In addition, the .30 Carbine Blackhawk may be the most accurate pistol bar none ... tho I'm willing to concede some (few) could match it.

The .30 Carbine reaches its full potential in the Blackhawk.

I can not give comparison of the 2, but i can say that i owned a Blackhawk .30 Carbine and it was incredibly accurate!! The one i got had to be sent back to Ruger because they installed the wrong ejector housing and push rod. My good friend owned an old one that got me started on wanting one, his was one of the most accurate revolvers i had ever shot! I have no experience with the .327

[Thumbcocker]

Soup can sans gas check over 12.0 of 2400.

[Green Frog]

Then again, you could just think of the 327 Fed Mag as a sort of a rimmed 30 Carbine and end the whole argument! :mrgreen:

[Harter66]

Straight up cartridge to cartridge for a particular platform with the asset of sharing platforms and load levels the rimmed case gets the win every time.

Throwing out the above bigger is better for load flexibly . More case means more choices of powder and bullets.

Really comes down to personal preference.

[dougader]

I haven't seen a 30 carbine in the Single 7 yet. Wake me when they're available....

That kind of sizzle in a little revolver is unheard of, unless one has $$$$ and years to wait for a Bowen 32-20 conversion on a Single Six.

[jski]

Green Frog, but as I pointed out in my original posting, the .30 Carbine is a superior cartridge when compared to the .327 Mag. Why settle for less?

But this does make me wish someone would bring back the AMT AutoMag III.

[A pause for the COZ]

Superior is in the eye of the beholder. If by superior you mean can shoot it faster. 30 carbine wins by a nose.

If by superior you mean the most versatile. The 327 wins by about a country mile. I gladly give up a couple fps on the top end to get the jack of all trades and master of them all. Have a Henry Big boy in 327 mag in Que as we type.

[54bore]

I remember my .30 Carbine RCBS Carbide dies were expensive compared to say .357 .44 etc. And even though my dies were carbide the .30 Carbine took a bit more effort to Resize, i can remember lightly lubing one every now and then with imperial but rare, i didnt have to do it, just made Resizing a bit more pleasurable. I never had a problem and i loaded a few thousand rounds. My friend that got me into the .30 Carbine had a heck of a time Resizing through his Carbide dies UNLESS he lubed all of them, or at least every other one, i don't know his Cleaning/loading procedure? I suspect it was something he was doing? He came by my house one day just to watch me Resize .30 Carbine without using lube. I kinda miss that Blackhawk, that thing was ACCURATE! If i stumble across an old Safe Queen 3 Screw in my travels and its not an absolute fortune i would grab it.

[9.3X62AL]

All of my 30 Carbine brass gets sized in steel dies, and always has for the 30+ years I have loaded the caliber. Case lubing isn't a chore, and neither is lube removal after-the-fact. Over the past several years I have eschewed tungsten-carbide sizing dies in several of the handgun calibers when I have found that the T/C dies have done "too much sizing" of fired brass. Worst offenders have been RCBS 44 Special/Magnum and 45 Colt T/C sizers--all are done in steel dies now, and both case life and accuracy have been enhanced. 45 ACP is a similar matter, dealt with via the scrapped 45 Colt T/C die and its .469" finished case diameter vs. the 45 ACP die's finished case diameter of .467". Making reloaded ammo all look like Coke bottles is poor practice.

One other payoff of having a steel 30 Carbine sizer die on hand.......re-working of the now-out-of-print Starline 7.62 x 38R Nagant brass for loading. One pass into the 30 Carbine sizer with a lightly-lubed Starline case, and the too-wide brass fit the chambers perfectly. The Tale Of The Tape tells all.

[sixshot]

I've owned perhaps a dozen 30 carbine Blackhawks in the last several decades & every single one was a tack driver. I've shot lots of cast plus 100 gr. Plinkers, 110 gr. RN jacketed, etc. all of them have shot great. I also own 32's & 327's & 32/20's so I've got the bases covered, I like all of them. Never really seen it as a competition because there's really not much difference if barrel length's are the same. Lots of ground squirrels, rock chucks, badgers, crows, magpies, turtles, frogs, snakes, prairie dogs, foxed, coyotes, etc. have died of lead poison when I have any one of them with me. Give me any one of them & I'm going to have a fun day.
One last thing, my all time favorite load in the 30 carbine....12 grs. of 2400 with just about any bullet I used & I use several.

Dick

[jski]

Sixshot,

What's the heaviest weight bullet you've used for your .30 Carbine Blackhawk?

Have you used Hodgdon's H110?

[Ramjet-SS]

Certainly in the Ruger BH you are correct but move to easily concealable snub revolver with one more shot than a 38 Special or 357 it then tilts the scale to the 327 Federal.

[jski]

Just for comparisons, on the left is Buffalo Bore's newly released 125 gr. hard cast (BHN 22), gas checked .30 Carbine round. On the right we have a Winchester white-box, garden variety 125 gr. jacked HP .357 Mag. round. They're close.

188492

BTW, I believe Buffalo Bore is primarily targeting Blackhawk enthusiasts with this puppy.

[alchemist11]

Been bantering back and forth on another site about the merits of the .30 Carbine v. the .327 Fed Mag as pistol rounds. Looking at the data it seems apparent that the .30 Carbine is ballistically superior. Just visit the Hodgdon reloading data website.

With a case capacity of 21 v. 19 gr of H2O, the .30 Carbine simply has more space for more powder. And when you take into consideration the space available after seating comparable bullets, the disparity is even greater.

Hence, we see Buffalo Bore offering .30 Carbine rounds with 125 gr hard cast (BHN 21), gas checked, fat nose bullets --- primarily targeting the Blackhawk community.

One things that seems universally acknowledged is the .30 Carbine Blackhawk is accurate, VERY accurate.

Comments?

To be honest, I must admit, I'm not that experienced with the .327.




In a blackhawk, reloading the .327 will out perform the .30 carbine.

[alchemist11]

THe .327 in the blackhawk will outperform the .30 carbine

[dtknowles]

In a blackhawk, reloading the .327 will out perform the .30 carbine.

Why do you say that, my reloading manuals disagree.

I can beat them both with 32-20 in my Dan Wesson and pretty much match them with my CZ-52 in 7.62 x 25

I don't own a Blackhawk, a 30 carbine or a .327 mag of any kind.

Ballistically there is not enough difference to argue over and think the deciding factor is going to be the handgun they are chamber in or the matching carbine if you want one.

We know that 32-20 functions fine in a lever gun, does .327. The .30 carbine is a carbine and the companion for the 7.62 is a submachine gun but maybe there are semi-auto versions. They made special hot ammo for the subgun.

The one undeniable advantage for the .327 is all the smaller rounds you can shoot in it.
Tim

[Thundarstick]

My Henry lever in 327FM has never had a hiccup.

[dtknowles]

My Henry lever in 327FM has never had a hiccup.

Good to hear, will it also function with 32 H&R or even 32 S&W Long. I get that it probably would not work with 32 S&W, that would just be asking too much but maybe a Pump Action. They seem to swallow all lengths based on .22 rf experience.
Tim