Hello everyone, new member here ;)

[FLTLVL]

First of all, let me introduce myself. I'm FLTLVL, a chap from Canada who just joined the forum a few minutes ago. I'm a new member but not new to the site. I have read many threads on this forum for many years now but only as a viewer and not a participant.

I got hit by this bug called (bullet casting) many years ago now and I still consider myself a beginner. Not to long ago, I got hit with another virus, that is, shot shell reloading... oh yes

I'm in the process of ordering a mold from Accurate Molds but I have a few questions that are unanswered and I can't find anything relating to my situation online so I thought I would ask the experts on this forum. First of all, this is for fun, a hobby nothing more however if the accuracy is half ok, I might use this load in my 12 gauge 590A1 for bear deterrent or protection while camping in outdoors up north. I thought of this over and over and decided to eliminate the full bore option for personal reasons even though it is probably the best option. My goal is to load this slug in a Remington STS or Gun Club hull using Longshot for powder and a Federal 12S4 wad. My 590A1 has a cylinder bore barrel and I was debating on which diameter to order the slug in... I was thinking cal .678 for the bands, or another option is cal .680.

This load might also be shot on occasion in my Remington 870 rifled barrel on the occasional deer hunt if it proves accurate....

I will include a picture of the slug for reference.

187112

Now I'm well aware that this slug will probably not be very accurate on of my smooth bore Mossberg 590, however, my main question is in regards to the diameter of the bands. I remember reading a thread regarding the .690 Cal roundball slug where a member by the name of Longbow if my memory serves me well mentioned that he had very good luck with .678 cal round balls in his smooth bores mentioning that the fit in most wads was perfect. Using the same logic, I'm wondering if getting a mold to cast these slugs with a band of .678 cal would not be a better option.

Anyways, always looking for your comments and input as I am a newbie to this and always willing to learn.

A few technical dimensions regarding this slug which is available on the Accurate Molds catalog. It is .675 inches long, and is supposed to cast with a weight of 545 grains using WW as alloy.

Thank you ago for your patience and input and forgive me for a pretty long thread, considering this is my first post lol.

Regards,
:D
FLTLVL

[Ithaca Gunner]

You plan on putting it in a shot cup? I have an Accurate mold for 12ga slug similar, but 700+grs. Mine casts a .732" slug for a rifled barrel. I load it lubed in a ST Premier hull with just a gas seal and cork wad with a roll crimp over a charge of Blue Dot.

I think Longbow is loading round ball that fits a shot cup nicely and pushes down a standard 12ga. barrel just right.

[longbow]

I am a bit confused here... nothing new I am getting old!

You say you are using a smoothbore barrel but it looks like the slug you want to use in a shotcup is suited for rifled barrel.

So far most of my slug shooting has been in smoothbore and I have shot round ball, Foster style hollow base slugs and Brenneke style attached wad slugs.

With smoothbore barrel you need a drag stabilized slug or round ball. Round balls can deliver pretty good accuracy to 50 yards or better but there is a tendency for groups to open up fairly quickly much past 50 to 60 yards. I have shot some very nice round ball groups out to 100 yards... but not dependably. Balls tend to pick up a spin from drag, producing unpredictable fliers.

Drag stabilized slugs being either hollow base or Brenneke style attached wads use the shuttlecock principle to stay nose forward.

Certainly 0.678" round ball which is a standard Lyman and RCBS mould size fits well in many standard shotcups. Lee Drive Key Slugs run about 0.685" at the nose and taper to something like 0.670" at the base to match shotcup petal taper more or less. Lyman sabot slugs run about the same.

So, for rifled gun something in the order or 0.680" should be about right for standard shotcups but a solid slug will not stabilize from a smoothbore barrel.

If you are planning on using a smoothbore barrel then you will be better off using a round ball of 0.678"/0.680", Lee Drive Key slug or Lyman sabot slug... if you want to cast your own. There are some custom/semi-custom hollow base slug moulds available as well from Brooks. turbo1880 had a couple of very nice hollow base moulds made by Brooks. A search will find his threads. turbo posted lots of good info as did Ajay (VDO memories).

Alternately Accurate will make a hollow base mould for you but you will have to get the hollow base pin made by someone else.

So far in my quest to find 100 yard accuracy (my definition is under 6" at 100 yards from smoothbore) I have failed. Not that I haven't achieved it but not dependably with home cast and loaded slugs. To 50 yards plus however, a good round ball load is hard to beat in my experience. Easy to cast and easy to load, round balls do pretty well for moderate range work and equal or better any hollow base slugs I have shot so far.

YMMV

Longbow.

[Buckshot]

A hearty welcome for finally 'Man-ing Up' and coming in out of the cold :-) I'm really no shotgun expert, but I'd think that for use in a smooth bore wouldn't a HB design be better? I know that possibly the roundball does yeoman's duty in such things, but is decidedly short ranged. My thinking is in a HB design you get that "Potato in a sock" effect? You've probably heard of BPI, Ballistic Products Inc? https://www.ballisticproducts.com/

A couple years ago I had the shotgun bug bite. In fact I decided to make myself a shotgun slug mould :-)

http://www.fototime.com/8AA949CD5B29C6F/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/4CE53584CE93E4D/standard.jpg

I made it like a Lee, with a captive cavity pin. LEFT: Is a top view. Right is a photo of the base plate with the central Nyloc nut retaining the core pin.

http://www.fototime.com/EA6CBE1EF182084/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/8303120BB3ED705/standard.jpg

Left is the cavity, and on the right is the slug it drops. The slug drops from the mould at .733".

http://www.fototime.com/FB5DFCCCFE50CA0/standard.jpg

This is one I drove through the barrel of my Mossberg M500's 20" rifled barrel. I didn't spend much time at the lead pot and the pictured slug was one of the better ones. I also loaded one as I just HADTA try it out. The slugs weigh 525 grs. Picked a charge for a 1-1/4 oz payload atop a wad that I'd cut the petals off of and then roll crimped the slug in place. Big time test having a whole ONE shot:-) All I want to do was make sure the slug would exit the barrel in the right direction. I drove out into the sticks where we used to live.

Wasn't even refined enough to have a target. Very minimalist, as I tossed a small piece of 2x4 into the middle of the dirt road, and backed up about 30 yards. I had my buddy with me, and he suggested this was really going to be scientific. A hint of sarcasm I think. I was glad I brought his as when I fired I lost sight of the block of wood, but did see the dust kick up. My friend said it hit about 3" to the right and maybe 6" behind the piece of wood. So for me standing, that suggested that the slug would have 'just' cleared the side of the 2x4 :-) I was jazzed, but that was the sum of the whole deal. Other stuff got in the way :-)

...............Buckshot

[Hogtamer]

Welcome to the chaos!
1) Don't start out reinventing the wheel. Longbow and others will attest a Round Ball load is easiest and best accuracy to 50 yds. Either the .678 in a wadcup or .735 full bore. The Lee 7/8 key drive is in that class as well and same shotcup and powder as .678 ball. Slower powder for full bore. Among us there are tens of thousands of test firings and scores of combos to make this statement.
2) Any of above will work in smoothbore (Cylinder or Imp Cyl) or rifled gun.
3) Recoil is a consideration. Too much and it won't be enjoyable and that is subjective. Massive recoil does not equate with follow up shots if required.
4) Sighting system (rifle type, red dot or scope) is needed for decent accuracy. Single bead is at best paper plate at 50 yds.
5) There are great options already out there already proven for purchase. Uncle Dino's latest attached wad swaged slugs mentioned in thread above among the best for accuracy and ease of loading and probably much less expensive than all of the avove in the short and long run. If you are infected with the disease from which most of us are here though, you will ignore most of this, spend a thousand dollars or so on chasing your own rabbit, only to come to the same basic conclusions you have read here about big lead and shotguns! be safe and have fun.

[GhostHawk]

Welcome to the light there Lurker!

No need to hang in the shadows.

Where you from up there in the Great White North?

I'm just a bit south of Winnipeg on the wrong side of the border from you.

[FLTLVL]

First off, let me thank you for all the warm welcome :D. I read all your comments with great detail and I will try to clarify a few points.

Thank you Longbow for replying so quickly. I been reading many of your posts over the years so thanks again for giving your input. I am well aware that this slug will not be stable in a smoothbore. I ran calculations and it will be very stable in a 1:35 twist slug barrel. Like is said, this is mostly a fun project so it won't hurt me at all to drop 100$ on a mold and realize I made a mistake hahah. With your experience, shooting such slug in my smoothbore cylinder choke Mossberg barrel, will the slug tumble as soon as leaves the barrel. I would be happy of a 2 to 3 inch group at 15 yards out of a smoothbore as long as the slug did not keyhole. I would mostly be using this combo in my smoothbore for bears around the camp and such at very close range. Bears are not a threat at 25 yards as far as I'm concerned.
Now if I were to shoot that same slug in a rifled shotgun barrel, do any of you see any issues? As far as the diameter, most seem to think .680 would probably be the perfect fit for the rifled barrel. How about the smoothbore barrel? Would .680 be a better fit compared to lets say a .678?

Hotamer's post made me giggle deep inside and I'm still laughing at this quote (If you are infected with the disease from which most of us are here though, you will ignore most of this, spend a thousand dollars or so on chasing your own rabbit)... You are 100% correct in a sense. I would never ignore your input, never that would be disrespectful but I do like to tinker around.

GhostHawk: I lived all over Canada over the last few decades due to the nature of my work... I did live in Winnipeg for a while, its there that I had my 375 Ultra Mag build on a Winchester Mod 70 action. Now I moved to the (Belle Province) yea yea, I know....

1: So long story short. With your prior experience, would that slug design fly straight to at least 10 to 15 yards, nose forward?

Thanks again,

FLTLVL

[longbow]

I'll stick with the recommendation of round ball or Foster slug.

The Lyman sabot slug or Lee Drive Key slug would be a good place to start. Both are designed to be loaded into shotcups and both can be shot from smoothbore or rifled gun. I think the Lyman Sabot Slug is a little stouter design and a bit heavier than the Lee Drive Key slug so is likely a better choice for bears.

Both those moulds are readily available from Lyman and Lee. Also, Mihec has beautiful brass clones of the Lyman slug in full bore and wad slug so there is that option and the Mihec mould is 2 cavity which is nice.

I have not shot the Lyman sabot slug but many report good accuracy all the way to 100 yards from smoothbore and they do very well from rifled guns.

As for ease of casting and loading it is hard to beat the round ball and has been said, out to 50 yards or so they are plenty accurate for most needs. 0.678" ball moulds are available from Lyman and RCBS and the 0.735" ball mould is available from Lyman. There is also a group buy running for Mihec brass 2 cavity moulds in 0.678" and 0.732".

So distilled down to the short answer:

~ if you are set on using a wad slug and smoothbore I'd go with 0.678" round ball or the Lyman Sabot Slug... and Mihec moulds for both if you want a terrific quality brass mould
~ if for use in both smoothbore and rifled, I'd go with the Lyman Sabot Slug (Mihec mould)
~ I would not use the solid slug from Accurate for a smoothbore. It will likely stop a bear at 15 yards but I'll bet it is tumbling by 15 yards too. That one might respond to a rifled choke tube if you have a smoothbore barrel threaded for choke tubes
~ if you decide on a custom mould pay attention to slug weight and available load data. There is not a lot of load data available for slugs heavier than about 1 3/8 oz.

And yes... welcome to the forum!

Longbow

[FLTLVL]

Thank you Longbow for your input! I was just on the MP mold website and I see that they indeed have a nice mold copy of the Lyman pellet slug... How does brass compare to aluminum for casting since I have no experience with it? Would I be able to use it bellow zero weather here up in Canada since I do cast in my shed in the winter...

As far as the pellet slug is concerned, if I shoot it in my cylinder bore (.730) could I cast it out of hard alloy to maximize penetration?

Regards,

FLTLVL

[longbow]

Brass is a great mould material and Mihec moulds are top quality at good prices.

Brass does like to be run hot and fast, especially the Cramer style. Also, I ladle cast because I prefer ladle but I think for large volume pours like shotgun slugs a ladle is best. My opinion anyway.

I cast outside in winter and am in Castlegar, British Columbia (East Kootenays). We don't often see real cold but it regularly gets down to -10 to -20 C. I dip my moulds in the snow to cool them when they get too hot if I am casting real fast.

I've never had problems and have cast at temperature as low as -15 though normally I'd say -3 to -5 so not much below freezing.

As for hard alloy, I can't say from personal experience with the Lyman Sabot slug but many post that they cast from hard alloy and are successful so I'd have to say I'd do it. I will say that I have recovered several Lyman slugs others have shot at our range and all show skirt crushing (these are softish lead). I'd recommend filling the hollow cavity with hot melt glue or similar both to keep wads out and to help support the skirt. If you cast from hard alloy skirt crushing may not be an issue but wads pushing into the cavity will be so best to fill it anyway. I fill all my hollow base slugs.

For bear protection I think a hard alloy would be preferable as well. Penetration is your friend and the bear is not. Also at the ranges you are talking about if the hard alloy is tough on wads it shouldn't really matter as you are not looking for pinpoint accuracy at 15 yards.

What would be interesting to find out is penetration comparison between a 0.678" round ball and Lyman Sabot slug with both cast from hard alloy and at top velocity. The ball weighs less but can be driven faster and being spherical may penetrate further than the flat nose Lyman slug and again, I think penetration is your friend in that kind of situation. Depends on size of the bears too. If the Lyman slug will go right through it is likely to do more damage. If not I would opt for more penetration though that is just my opinion.

Maybe I will make a nose form to match the Lyman slug for my mould and do that comparison. Mine will not be wasp waisted like the Lyman but can be same weight and loaded to same velocity with same nose so should have same terminal ballistics. Yet another project to add to the list!

Pleas keep us posted on what you decide to do and your results. It is all a shared experience and knowledge here.

Longbow

[pipehand]

Welcome aboard. To be succinct, what Longbow said in posts 3 and 8 are what I would say given my experience.

[DanishM1Garand]

Lyman Foster Slugs are hopeless inaccurate. Lyman's 525 grain "Air Gun Pellet" slugs are accurate in smooth and rifled bores.

I made the the mistake of buying the foster slug mold first.

[longbow]

Me too!

I bought a Lyman Foster slug mould about 35 years ago after reading about possible 4" groups at 100 yards. Using Lyman Reloading manual recipes to the letter and casting slugs from dead soft lead as directed by Lyman I couldn't keep groups under about 8" at 50 yards with 10" to 12" being more common.

In more recent times I got some advice that I should use a copper washer under the slug to ensure even and proper obturation so dug out that old mould, cast some pure lead slugs, turned some pennies down to fit the bore for placing under the slugs and proceeded to load up. Well, those didn't work any better.

I'd not recommend the Lyman Foster slug mould at all.

The Lyman Sabot Slug "Air Gun Pellet" mould is a whole different animal and has gotten some pretty good reviews. It is a slug I have not tried as of yet though. I was going to buy a Mihec version but turbo talked me out of it as he said my home made slugs will do as well. So far while I don't know if that is true, I do know that the slugs I cast and load from my home made moulds are not giving me 4" groups at 100 yards from smoothbore... and not likely to.

Longbow

[FLTLVL]

I'm glad to know brass will work out well for casting. I'm also wondering if MP Molds would make a custom mold if I submit a design of my own. I was thinking using a wide meplat slug but keeping the same inside dimensions as the Lyman pellet slug. This way, no change would be required to the core pin by the machinist building the mold, only the mold dimensions would change slightly...

I was doing some rough sketching this afternoon just for fun... What do you think of these? I'm thinking a diameter of .678 to .680 to fit in a wad. The weight would be slightly heavier than the Lyman slug, I'm guessing around 550 grains using WW. The length would be adjusted so as to fit in a 12S4 wad without any nitro card bellow. The skirt of the bullet would have to be wide enough to prevent issues that are reported on the Lyman design with the wad pushing inside the slugs recess...

187200
187201

The shaded area would obviously be hollow...

[longbow]

Mihec only does group buys.

If you want custom there is Accurate Molds who do a terrific job, Mountain Molds (not sure if they do shotgun slugs), Brooks and maybe a couple of others. Accurate will make the mould but not the core pin. You have to make it yourself or get someone else to make it. Erik at Hollow Point Moulds has a very good reputation and would likely make a core pin. Buckshot on this site also does (or did) custom machining.

I'd lean towards the top version as you will never get the pin out of the bottom one, you need a good taper or it will stick. My Lyman Foster mould is horrible that way. Also, check your balance point. You want a balance point about 1/3 the way back from the nose.

I'd try to stick with weight between 1 oz. and 1 3/8 oz. for ease of finding load info.

All this talk about slugs is getting me itching to go out shooting! It has been too long since I have been to teh range and longer since I shot slugs. I just spend some time checking several slugs I made up for testing. Still working on attached wad slugs, some hollow base as well and some with copper tube skirt. I just knurled 10 Nessler slugs for re-testing too.

Longbow

[FLTLVL]

I agree with you Longbow, this is getting to be addictive in all the right ways lol. I own a Lee .690 cavity round ball mold but I'm not to fond of that ball size. I find that they are a tad to big to fit in the wad through my cylinder bore barrel. Basically I'm searching for the slug that will give me the best penetration up to 25 to 50 yards out of a smooth bore with decent accuracy. Perhaps the .678 caliber round ball is what might work the best in my case after all....

[longbow]

I have not had any success at all with 0.690" round ball.s They are too big to fit into most wads I have been able to find and the one or two types I found that they did fit I got poor accuracy anyway. Not sure what it is with 0.690" as I have had excellent results with 0.662" patched to fit snug, 0.678" in Winchester yellow wads and 0.735" naked on a hard card wad column. I gave up trying with the 0.690" balls.

[FLTLVL]

If you had to choose Longbow between the the Lyman 525gr Slug or a .678 round ball... what would be your choice inside 50 yards?

[Hogtamer]

I bought the mihec / lyman mold and it is a wonderful tool. Get it hot and it will rain slugs. Also, use soft lead. I posted a thread with results a while back.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?315489-Testing-the-MP-Lyman-525

[Ithaca Gunner]

The .690 round ball works very well in an Ithaca M-37 Deer Slayer smoothbore barrel with it's .700 straight bore using BPI Light Brush wads.

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn179/krag1894/100_0374_zps1af314c2.jpg

Left to right, a .690 round ball nested in a BPI Light Brush wad-a Lyman 575213OS in a sabot for 12ga.-Accurate 73-770s slug for 12ga. rifled barrels.

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn179/krag1894/100_0351_zps1d3b5344.jpg

Target shot at 40yds. with LEE .690 round ball over 3 LEE .31 balls for a nice buck and ball load. I haven't had the time to work up a load for either the .58 Minnie in sabots, or the heavy slug for my rifled Deer Slayer barrel. The round ball load does not shoot well out of the rifled barrel, it's pretty much all over the paper.

[elvas]

It would be interesting a mold that makes full bore "Lyman Sabot Slugs" to avoid any sabot/wad variations, accuracy speaking.

[longbow]

There's something I have not tried is the brush wads or donut wads. Certainly if you can keep the 0.690" ball centered it should fly just like any other ball. It is keeping it centered and not having wads self destruct that has been my problem with it, not the ball itself.

I bought a Lyman 0.715" ball mould for my Browning buck and slug smoothbore barrel with I/C choke some time back for that very reason... so that it would be centered up by the choke as it left the barrel but, I did not check the choke before ordering the mould and find my choke is 0.710" and balls cast at 0.716". I have been reluctant to shoot the ball through that choke. It is likely alright but I don't want to find out the hard way!

FLTLVL:

To be honest I am not sure. I have not shot the Lyman sabot slug. Nor have I done penetration tests with any slug that is basically a full wadcutter like the Lyman slug.

For bear defense I would want to test both for penetration in wet newspaper or multiple water jugs... or better, a combination. While the wadcutter nose has to make a nasty wound channel I still think I would go with whichever gave enough penetration to go lengthwise through or at least furthest through a large critter. Either one would be cast from wheelweights or harder alloy then oven heat treated for that use.

I do not believe the round ball would break up but not sure of the Lyman Sabot slug skirt. I have recovered several slugs that were oven heat treated and some hollow base slugs broke up and a finned slug design I made also broke up (shed fins). A slightly softer alloy may have solved that but still not allowed penetration limiting expansion.

There is likely someone here that has shot big game and maybe even bears with the Lyman slug that can add personal experience. Lengthwise shots would be the issue here not broadside shots... unless broadside on an elk, moose or large grizzly that is.

I'd certainly feel better armed with a 12 ga. and either round ball or Lyman Sabot slug than most smaller calibers except for those in the .45-70 class and up.

Longbow

[Cap'n Morgan]

A lot of good advice in this tread.

Based on my personal experience (don't ask!) with disintegrating wads and wads separating from the slug, a wad-less slug with a length-to-diameter ratio about 1:1 will be fairly accurate within 25 yards from a smoothbore - certainly more than accurate enough to work as bear repellent even though they would almost certainly be key-holing at this distance. After 25 yards things start to go south, and at fifty yards you might miss the bear completely due to the extreme non-linear dispersion of a tumbling slug.

[FLTLVL]

All great advice here! I guess I just need to do some penetration testing with different slugs hey lol. I'm reading the thread regarding the new MP/Lyman 525 slug mold.... Interesting stuff. An other option is casting a full bore round ball I guess for my improved cylinders... .728 to .730.... That would be some serious lead down range!

[FLTLVL]

One thing I have never done is shoot full bore round balls yet. I have no idea how to load them or where to get any kind of reloading info... My Mossberg 590A1 has a cylinder bore barrel measuring .730 if I believe my calipers... Now what diameter round ball should I cast for such barrel? Do you use like a felt wad over the powder charge or do you still use wad like a 12S3 or 12S4 in which one would cut all the petals off? How about lube? Do you have to coat them in Lee liquid alox or lubing is not required for round balls?

How about pressures?

So many questions hey.... ahhh newbies lol

By the way, I noticed a chap by the name of Jeff Tanner makes custom brass round ball moulds in the UK. They seem to be very well made. I'm curious as to how hard it would be to cut the sprew of a hard cast round ball with a pair of pliers... I could get two different moulds one in .678 and the other in .732....

FLTLV:D

[longbow]

For full bore round ball I went with the only mould I knew of that was available... Lyman 0.735". Even though it is oversize, there is not a lot of meat around the equator so I figured it would be okay. Got the mould, cast some balls from range scrap then took a dowel and mallet to drive on through the bore. It took very little effort to get started then slid through so that eased my mind.

The ball weighs 580 grs. so load data is a little scarce. I found a load published by Precision Rifle for their PileDriver solid full bore slug at 610 grs. They listed pressure tests for loads from 36 to 44 grs. of Blue Dot in straight walled hull. Since the ball has less bore contact and is 30 grs. lighter I felt quite comfortable using these loads so started at 36 grs. in a Fiocchi 2 3/4" hull with Win 209 primer. They went bang and accuracy was good so I figured I'd up the charge and went to 38 grs. The recoil there in a light single shot got my attention so that's the load I used. I can't recall if I tried any at 40 grs. but 38 grs. is what I stuck with and it seemed like a pretty potent load.

I tried a few different wad columns but settled on a plastic gas seal, hard card wad then a nitro card wad or two to get crimp height then roll crimp. The hard card wad column gave the best accuracy for me giving groups of 3" to 4" at 50 yards. I shot to 100 yards and got some pretty nice groups of 6" to 8" but too often there was a flier or two that were well out of the group so not dependable 100 yard accuracy.

The same load shot out of a borrowed Remington 870 with rifled barrel turned in several groups of 2"+/- at 50 yards and no leading though I didn't shoot it a lot. I didn't have any leading issues at all in my smoothbore using the full bore naked ball but if I was loading for rifled gun I would either tumble lube the balls or use a lubed felt wad in the wad column.

I also tried using a cut off cushion leg with gas seal (petals cut off) but found the cushion leg tried to wrap itself around the ball and cracked, tore, or distorted badly and often the gas seals were blown. Accuracy was poor.

Using a nitro card wad or two under a ball helps whether full bore or ball in shotcup. At 10,000 PSI the wad column needs to be sturdy as it tries to extrude itself around the ball.

So there's something you should do when you get to field testing is look for your wads and check condition. If accuracy is good the wad condition really doesn't matter but still, it is good to know what's happening. If accuracy is poor and wads are damaged then you want to change wads or change the way you are loading. I generally find that if wads look bad accuracy is not good and if accuracy is good wads are in good shape.

As for moulds, the readily available Lyman 0.735" works for me though had I known about Jeff Tanner at the time I would have ordered a 0.732" mould from him. Not sure if the size would be better, worse or same but it seems a better size. I've directed several people to Jeff's site after I found it and those that bought his moulds say they work well.

Also, you might look up a recent thread by 725 who is using a soft lead 0.720" ball in a shotcup with excellent results in rifled gun. I wouldn't have believed it but it is working well for him. I thought wad petals would shear for sure but he posted pics of recovered wads and they look great. Not sure if the results would be as good with hard cast balls though. I had petals shearing using 0.690" RB's in smoothbore. A tougher wad might help there but I have limited reloading supplies available locally so have to use what I can get. Anyway, just more information and a good thread to read as well if you haven't seen it.

Longbow

[Cap'n Morgan]

If you go for a full bore round ball, it should fit the bore snugly. Any rattling will likely put a random spin on the ball when it leaves the muzzle

[FLTLVL]

I will email M. Jeff Tanner asap. I will probably start with the smaller caliber round ball as it seems this might be easier to find loads for... So it seems Longbow swears by the .678 caliber round ball. I wish I knew which one would penetrate the deepest, the .678 rb at 1400 fps or a .732 at 1200. I plan on casting these out of wheel weights and heat treating them to increase penetration, reduce deformation.

Regarding the Jeff Tanner molds, do any of you see any problems cutting the sprue off hard allow vs pure lead?

[longbow]

Since Jeff shows a pair of side cutters as sprue cutters, I have to think at worst you would need largish side cutters for hard alloy. They will be air cooled at sprue cutting time though. Might be a question to ask Jeff.

Before you go buying moulds, if you want to try some 0.678" and 0.735" RB's I can send you a few of each. These are air cooled range scrap but similar to wheelweights and they do oven heat treat as I have oven heat treated range scrap boolits for my .303's.

I'll add that I have not shot oven heat treated 0.735" RB's in my guns, just air cooled. I doubt it will make a big difference to forces required but worth checking by running one through the bore with dowel and mallet. I'll see if I can do that this week. Won't matter at all for the 0.678" ball since it is in a shotcup.

Not sure about penetration between the two balls. There is another interesting test to do. Mass is usually a good thing for penetration which leans towards the 0.735" ball but it also depends on velocity and sectional density. The 0.735" ball has a slight edge in sectional density so likely achievable velocity will be the deciding factor. I am thinking you should be able to hit 1500 FPS or beyond with the 0.678" ball which is substantial.

Anyway, if you want some balls to test fire let me know.

Longbow

[FLTLVL]

Thank you Longbow for the offer :-). The Jeff Tanner molds are so cheap that I might purchase two... one in .678 and one in .732

I think that I remember a gentleman by the nickname of Turbo who was also fond of that .678 Cal round ball if my memory serves me right.

Just pulling up some reloading information from the Hodgdon reloading data center, and they show for a 1 1/8 lead shot load some pretty interesting numbers.
I think that this .678 cal round ball would fit perfectly in the Fed 12S3 wads which I have in large quantity. I also have mostly FED209A primers with Rem Gun Club hulls.

So I was thinking... Rem hull, Fed 209A, Longshot as my powder of choice, 12S3 wad, 16 gauge 1/8 nitro card at the base of the wad, the .678 hard cast ball to finish it all...

Sounds like 1500 fps should be easily attainable.

[Spudgunr]

Thank you Longbow for the offer :-). The Jeff Tanner molds are so cheap that I might purchase two... one in .678 and one in .732

I think that I remember a gentleman by the nickname of Turbo who was also fond of that .678 Cal round ball if my memory serves me right.

Just pulling up some reloading information from the Hodgdon reloading data center, and they show for a 1 1/8 lead shot load some pretty interesting numbers.
I think that this .678 cal round ball would fit perfectly in the Fed 12S3 wads which I have in large quantity. I also have mostly FED209A primers with Rem Gun Club hulls.

So I was thinking... Rem hull, Fed 209A, Longshot as my powder of choice, 12S3 wad, 16 gauge 1/8 nitro card at the base of the wad, the .678 hard cast ball to finish it all...

Sounds like 1500 fps should be easily attainable.

You may not get good results from that, Longshot doesn't like to be under-loaded. A .678 hard cast will be about 450 grains, 1-1/8 oz is 492 grains. That is the lightest load you can find data for with Longshot. I tried 1oz of buckshot and it went poof. Add another little bit to bring it to 1-1/8oz and BOOM it went off like it should. A round ball will give less pressure than shot, so the problem is likely to be worse. Is there a way to make it work? Maybe. A pure lead ball will weigh more and may help, but I think you are going to need a bit more pressure for Longshot to go off nicely

[longbow]

Take a look here for lots of free load data:

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/loadoftheweekarchive.htm

You can use same weight data for buckshot, birdshot or slugs. You may find longshot data for 1+ oz. slugs.

Almost all my slug shooting has been with Blue Dot, SR4756 or Unique and most with Blue Dot. Running out though and it does not seem to be locally available. I haven't looked lately but last time I checked no "Dot" powders were available here.

A good roll crimp may help with the Longshot but Spudgunr is right, if you do not get good powder burn you could get bloopers or unpleasant pop... BOOM's.

Longbow

[Hogtamer]

Ditto on the longshot spudgunner. Great powder just gotta have plenty to push. The Rem hulls will help though, versus a straight wall.

[FLTLVL]

Thank you very much everyone for keeping me well informed. Like I initially stated in my opening post, we learn all the time and I'm very receptive to input. I will be checking the Ballistic products load data as soon as I'm done composing this.

Longbow: The Bullet Barn in Garden Bay, B.C. has both Blue dot and Unique in stock.

By reviewing the Hodgdon loading data for 1oz loads, I see that they have Titewad listed with a 12s0 wad. Being a faster powder, I wonder if this would do the trick...

Regards,

FLTLVL

[Spudgunr]

Longshot on a 1oz slug is something I want to work up when I get my pressure trace system. I suspect it is just a matter of adding more powder until you increase the pressure, but that is no man's land if you have no pressure readings to work from. The way I'd do it is slowly lower the shot charge, then increase powder to read the same pressure again. Continue lowing shot, increase powder. Again, with a pressure reading to work off (and that'd be after I've well familiarized myself with the system to understand whats going on). I think doing it this way would be better than just adding more powder on the small charge since you should avoid a ton of bloopers.

I did get 1680fps with a 1oz slug with longshot, I found a 3" load for the Lyman 525gr slug and used it with the 1oz slug. Obviously the pressure is going to be a lot less, so it makes me think significantly higher velocity is possible. To give you (general, not Hogtamer specifically since he likely knows this) an idea how much less pressure there is with solids, the 525 gr slug is over 1-1/8 (1.2) ounce and calls for FORTY FIVE grains of longshot (WAA12L wad) in the 3" remington separate basewad, for normal shot no more than 38 grains (2.75" fed gold medal hull).


Ditto on the longshot spudgunner. Great powder just gotta have plenty to push. The Rem hulls will help though, versus a straight wall.

[FLTLVL]

Well if I could get 1400 to 1500 fps with a 1oz round ball, I would be very happy. Now the tricky question... Should I order a mold in .678 or .680 caliber... What is the general consensus if any lol...

[longbow]

I don't think 0.002" will make any measurable difference to a given wad. Once up to 685"+ then things get a bit snug. It also depends a bit how deep the slug sits in the shotcup. I have some Winchester 1 oz. shotcups that have considerably thinner petals than the 1 1/4 oz. shotcups. I suspect the use the same taper but use shorter petals on the small capacity cup so similar to being way up in the 1 1/4 oz. shotcup.

I could not figure out why 0.678" when I doubt 0.002" would make a difference in a patch ball gun but someone figured it out I guess so that's what the moulds are cut to.

[725]

Just for your enjoyment type reading, go back and search the casting for shotgun thread for my "Success with 12 ga roundball" (or something close). I had Jeff Tanner cut a roundball mould at .702 and have wonderful success with it. I ran it out of a rifled barrel, but think a cylinder bore would do OK with it too. Just an FYI.

[FLTLVL]

I just put myself on the list for the group buy of a MP round ball mold in .678 caliber... A few more people are needed to get the ball rolling... [smilie=2: :-) pun intended

[Apocalypse]

Isn't there issues with group buys through here and being in Canada? I didn't even look, TBH. I'm in Winnipeg and am rather frustrated at the silly (to me) export laws of the US.


I just put myself on the list for the group buy of a MP round ball mold in .678 caliber... A few more people are needed to get the ball rolling... [smilie=2: :-) pun intended

[FLTLVL]

Hello Apocalypse,

As I'm sure you are aware, MP molds is located in Slovenia. From what I understand, the molds will ship from there so I don't see any issues in that regards. Not every item sold in the US is considered problematic. I do believe molds could be shipped form the US to Canada without any concerns.

[trapper9260]

Hello Apocalypse,

As I'm sure you are aware, MP molds is located in Slovenia. From what I understand, the molds will ship from there so I don't see any issues in that regards. Not every item sold in the US is considered problematic. I do believe molds could be shipped form the US to Canada without any concerns.
Yes they ship the molds from there location in Slovenia. They ship all over the world,for who is have there order on them.

[FLTLVL]

Thanks Trapper for the update. We need 10 more orders for the project to start... Come on guys, join us lol

[DanishM1Garand]

https://www.prbullet.com/12ga.htm

As to the Lyman 525 air gun pellet on bears. I have no clue. They will punch through both side of a steel 55gallon drum with ease.

The pile driver slug looks like bear medicine to me. I know nothing about this slug. I think you would want a rifled bore or at least a rifled choke for this. Cast it in a harder alloy for deep penetration and you should have a winner. This thing should put a thumping on a bear.

[longbow]

It was that PileDriver slug I based my 0.735" RB and other 600 +/- load data off several years ago. I had been told PR quit making the PileDriver. Not sure if that's true but good load info to have regardless.

The PileDriver is a swaged soft lead full bore HP slug for rifled gun only.

Accurate Molds have a variety of full bore slugs and if it isn't in their catalogue they'll make it for you. All solid though and for rifled gun.

The OP is using smoothbore for the most part so needs a drag stabilized slug or round ball. Not sure but I think the round ball cast hard would out penetrate the Lyman 525 gr. slug. Now if both make it through a large bear then penetration isn't the issue and the Lyman slug should make a nastier wound channel. Even if they went through a large mule deer lengthwise that would be a pretty good indicator. Surely someone here has shot a large bear or other critter with the Lyman slug and or a round ball? Is there any first hand experience out there?

Longbow

[Blood Trail]

It would be interesting a mold that makes full bore "Lyman Sabot Slugs" to avoid any sabot/wad variations, accuracy speaking.

There is one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk