Trouble bumping case shoulder back

[slackersean]

I'm trying to prep some 300 win mag cases for reloading. I had trouble with some once fired cases I bought. I'm using RCBS FL dies. When I size the cases I can't get the shoulder down to the spec of 2.196. When I measure the distance it runs around 2.217. The case OAL is 2.616, so the brass isn't too long for the die. I hadn't the depriming rod removed when I'm sizing. These cases won't chamber, and stick of forced. I read up on turning the die down to bump the shoulder back. I tried this. I discovered that I can turn the die all the way down and the shoulder doesn't bump at all. Did some more reading and saw that sometimes the case holder is too thick which doesn't let the case in the die all the way. I was using Lee case holders, so I bought Hornady. No real difference. I have a Lee Challenger press so I can't over cam. Could the issue be the FL dies? Maybe just a neck sizing die needs to be used? I'm up for any ideas.

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[Faret]

Measure just above the belt of the case sometimes they get swelled in this area and won't chamber either.

[samari46]

Think Redding still offers a set of shell holders that differ by a few thousandths each. But don't remember if they offer them for magnum cartridges. Frank

[slackersean]

Checked that just now. Spec is .513. Cases are .5125. This is what's driving me crazy. I know if I bump the shoulder the COL most likely will grow because the brass has to go somewhere. The chambering issue has to be the shoulder being to too far. I'm hoping the pic of a factory round and my case uploads.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170203/a8889a61717665e653e544d7c944a4c9.jpg

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[slackersean]

Think Redding still offers a set of shell holders that differ by a few thousandths each. But don't remember if they offer them for magnum cartridges. Frank
That's what I was leaning towards as another option. Might even try to sand a few thousandths off my Lee shell holder. I didn't want to resort to grinding the bottom off my die as I've read in others posts.

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[rockrat]

You might have a bit of "spring" in your press and when you run the die down to touch the shellholder, then size, there is a bit of a gap. Try running the die till it touches the shellholder, then turn the die down an extra 1/16th to 1/8th of a turn and see if you can get that extra bit of sizing to where you can chamber.

[EDG]

Use enough lube and FL size a case very slowly and let it dwell at the top of the stroke.

Then retract the case from the die about 1/2" and turn it about 120 degrees and size again slowly with about a 4 second dwell at the top of the stroke.
Repeat for the 3rd resizing. You can even toggle the press handle 4 or 5 times up and down about 1/4". Now check to see if it fits.
If it fits your rifle it now probably sized too much. Which means you need to work on your FL sizing technique or your press is a bit flimsy.
Your press may require 2 or 3 sizing strokes to mash the bash enough to move the shoulder. If you have a case gage that will check it between strokes give it a shot and see if you can see the shoulder moving.

All of the above is to make the case creep as far as possible into the FL die.

If you die is down hard against the shell holder when the ram is up while a case is being sized then you die is probably too long.
Knowing RCBS dies it is more likely your die setting or your press is too flimsy. I say this because I have measured a lot of RCBS FL dies and most measure about half way between the SAMMI go and no go dimensions...

[375RUGER]

Anneal the necks and that will take care of it.

[runfiverun]

I'd try the little further turning the die.

before I did that.
if you tried chambering that case you show in the picture [and it stuck in and out] it looks like the neck is going past the end of your chamber hitting the rifling.
this can cause a major blood vessel to pop getting the case in and out of the rifle.

[Mk42gunner]

I would smoke one of the offending cases with a butane lighter before chambering to see just where it is binding before I did anything radical to my equipment.

How many pieces of this brass did you buy? It might be easier to just forget this particular lot of brass.

Robert

[country gent]

I agree with smoking a case and chambering to see where its binding at. Sizing to headspace on the shoulders instead of belted cases will usually increase case life some also. DIes are normally cut to sammi mean + chambers are cut to Sammi means- so in some cases a standard shell holder and die set up may not get the shoulder back far enough. Another area to look at is the radious on the die mouths opening as this affects how far the dies is sizing down the brass. When I have run into this issue ( my match rifles were chambered 0 - -.001) I faced or polished .005-.010 of the bottom of the die. This way I didn't need a dedicated shell holder, It shortened the radious into the die allowing it to size a little farther down. Thinning the shell holder does work but then you have a dedicated shell holder and still have the larger radious. Annealing the cases neck and shoulder may help some also.

[slackersean]

I would smoke one of the offending cases with a butane lighter before chambering to see just where it is binding before I did anything radical to my equipment.

How many pieces of this brass did you buy? It might be easier to just forget this particular lot of brass.

Robert
I bought 100 pieces. I'm having the same problem with a group of 20 that I bought new and tried to reload. I'll try smoking the case tonight to see what's going on.

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[slackersean]

I agree with smoking a case and chambering to see where its binding at. Sizing to headspace on the shoulders instead of belted cases will usually increase case life some also. DIes are normally cut to sammi mean + chambers are cut to Sammi means- so in some cases a standard shell holder and die set up may not get the shoulder back far enough. Another area to look at is the radious on the die mouths opening as this affects how far the dies is sizing down the brass. When I have run into this issue ( my match rifles were chambered 0 - -.001) I faced or polished .005-.010 of the bottom of the die. This way I didn't need a dedicated shell holder, It shortened the radious into the die allowing it to size a little farther down. Thinning the shell holder does work but then you have a dedicated shell holder and still have the larger radious. Annealing the cases neck and shoulder may help some also.
I'm going to try the smoking then go from there. If I have to trim the die down it might be worth it if it fixes the problem. I suppose I could try a shell holder thinning and if that works try the die. I can always get a new shell holder cheap. I have two now as it is. Thanks.

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[toallmy]

Do you have room in the shell holder under the brass to slide a feeler gage , just a thought for temporary fix .

[Duckiller]

Have you called RCBS? They have very good customer service. If your dies aren't working right they will tell you how to fix them or have you send your dies to them to check them out.FL dies should move the sholder back.

[gnostic]

I had a similar problem when making 7.65 Argentine out of 30-06 brass, I couldn't close the bolt. So, I shaved down the shell holder with emery cloth until the bolt would close snugly. You can tell when the case is too long, as the case mouth will have a burnished edge from being chambered.

[leeggen]

The shoulder on the empty case almost looks like a weatherbee case shoulder. You know the long rounded look. Are the dies for a weatherbee?
CD

[slackersean]

OK, I've emailed RCBS from the website, and still waiting for a reply. Hopefully they have an idea. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170205/5af1880441068889037a240725f4743e.jpgSmoked the to of the case to check chambering. Looks like it's hitting the shoulder. Need to try the whole case still. (Brass got a little hot. Have to find my pliers). Tried sanding down a shell holder. Got the shoulder down to 2.212. This might work but I have .016 more to sand down.

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[castalott]

Just a foolish thought... I know you screwed your dies down to touch the shell holder and then sized.... but look at the distance the die and shell holder are apart when your handle is all the way down and the ram all the way up. My Rockchucker deforms several thousands of an inch as you can see the gap between the 2. That is the amount you can screw the die down.

You would be surprised how much a press can 'deform'.

But be careful to not 'overstress' your press....

[country gent]

Kind of looks like a bulge or ring at the lower edge of the shoulder and possibly the neck shoulder junction. Edges of shoulder are "proud" or radioused. .016 is a lot of material actual 1/64". The case mouth also appears to have a bright ring and step in it I'm curious about. Not being smart or mean but are you sure this is a 300 win mag die and not a 300 Winchester short mag or one of the other new 300 mag dies. The bulged ring on the lower shoulder suggests this.

[castalott]

The photo in post 18...the mouth of the case is tapering in... Doesn't look right somehow... Please don't think bad of me..I am only asking...that reminds me of the taper crimp like a seating die 'might' make... I know...I know... kind of a 'out in left field' thought....

[racepres]

The photo in post 18...the mouth of the case is tapering in... Doesn't look right somehow... Please don't think bad of me..I am only asking...that reminds me of the taper crimp like a seating die 'might' make... I know...I know... kind of a 'out in left field' thought....


But, I see that also...Might be worth looking at!!!!
does a Bullet slip into the entire neck of a round fired in your rifle [not resized]??

[toallmy]

Definitely something wrong , case mouth looks to be crimped wile the brass is not completely full length resized , looks sorta like the seating die instead of the sizing die . May I ask why are you sizing without the case neck expander just a thought . Be safe

[slackersean]

The photo in post 18...the mouth of the case is tapering in... Doesn't look right somehow... Please don't think bad of me..I am only asking...that reminds me of the taper crimp like a seating die 'might' make... I know...I know... kind of a 'out in left field' thought....
Don't think bad at all. That's why I'm here, all the extra eyes and knowledge. No, that's me just testing. Put the case in the seating die to test fit and it crimped it in, but didn't do anything to the shoulder. Here's a new case just in the sizing die.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170205/6eab94c5579a0041dfd13f8d8f1a5779.jpg shoulder is still high.

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[slackersean]

Just a foolish thought... I know you screwed your dies down to touch the shell holder and then sized.... but look at the distance the die and shell holder are apart when your handle is all the way down and the ram all the way up. My Rockchucker deforms several thousands of an inch as you can see the gap between the 2. That is the amount you can screw the die down.

You would be surprised how much a press can 'deform'.

But be careful to not 'overstress' your press....
I've checked that too. Stumps me.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170205/2aa2de18c650b00c6af7fb925d1c74ba.jpg

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[slackersean]

Kind of looks like a bulge or ring at the lower edge of the shoulder and possibly the neck shoulder junction. Edges of shoulder are "proud" or radioused. .016 is a lot of material actual 1/64". The case mouth also appears to have a bright ring and step in it I'm curious about. Not being smart or mean but are you sure this is a 300 win mag die and not a 300 Winchester short mag or one of the other new 300 mag dies. The bulged ring on the lower shoulder suggests this.
Checked just to be sure.. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170205/2a889ae5466e447cb3f93357f1814c40.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170205/c750e3247f005faf4676caa3ddf6c709.jpg

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[slackersean]

Definitely something wrong , case mouth looks to be crimped wile the brass is not completely full length resized , looks sorta like the seating die instead of the sizing die . May I ask why are you sizing without the case neck expander just a thought . Be safe
I read the expander might lengthen the case upon extraction, so I'm testing without it to see if I even get any shoulder bump back. Plus less stress on the brass during testing. It'll go back when I size for actual reloading.

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[racepres]

^^ Whatever rifle fired that round may have had a Very Generous Chamber. You will need to compensate, since you may have a "tight" chamber...
Tolerance Stacking, working against you!!

[castalott]

I had your problem with some "once fired" 308 brass I bought online. Dillons or RCBS RC would not size it down to fit in a case gauge. Bought a Big Max press for the power but still no go. I trimmed a Lee shell holder down to get more shell in the case but all that did was make the shellholder weak and it 'pulled thru' and was destroyed.

The next step was to take some metal off the bottom of my least favorite sizing die. Here we made some progress. But those dies are tough and the system I used was a flat surface with sandpaper on it. The die was moved by hand to remove metal. It took an hour of steady, careful work to remove ~ .003. Now the shoulder was moved back but the base of the case was still too tight.

You can use 'some' 45 acp dies to just size the base of a 308. I wish I would have just thrown that brass away....

[Small rant... The guy I bought the brass from said 'once fired'... maybe so but every primer was flat as a table top and the cases looked like they were fired in a full auto with big head space. That brass was incredibly hard and resisted sizing and staying sized... I'm saying 'springback' here...]

I've never sized cases with a belt and have no idea how that interplays with all of this. After being sized, do the cases fit in your rifle?

[country gent]

It was a thought with the ring bright spot at the shoulder. Another trick to try is cerrosafe cast of the die and measure it to see its internal sizes. I have used my bore scope to check finishes and areas in dies but not everyone has one. Theres may be a problem with the die at the body shoulder junction with a ring allowing brass to flow out into it. With Mics measure the shoulder body junction where the bright spot is and then on a fired case from your rifle and also a new case. see how they compare.

[psweigle]

Redo your sizing die in a different breech lock bushing and try that. There is a possibility that the bushing is moving. I've run into that before.

[slackersean]

Did a little more digging. re-examined some cases that were factory and fired from my rifle. Haven't tried sizing these yet, but the cases measure 2.202 at the shoulder. The brass I bought measures 2.218. it seems the brass I bought was fired from a chamber just a bit larger than mine. Still confused as to why I can get it pressed back down. Maybe I'll take a case and trim .015 - .02 off the COL and see if it'll resize to the correct dimensions. If not, cut the brass at the existing shoulder and see if it chambers after a quick size to round the end. I'd hate to waste $45 in brass because I can't resize it.

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[slackersean]

Redo your sizing die in a different breech lock bushing and try that. There is a possibility that the bushing is moving. I've run into that before.
Tried in my Lee turret press, not much difference but seemed like some. Tried the die in my Little Lee reloader press I use for depriming. I was able to bump down to 2.206. I had some .10 copper strips from making gas checks. Slipped one under the case between the shell holder and got the shoulder to 2.204. I can chamber the case in my rifle now, but they stick trying to eject them. Here's a pic of the progress. Thanks for the bushing idea.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170205/dc8c133f97a30e6ae46e014e33b1c121.jpg Still a little high but it's coming along. Now I'm wondering if my bench is flexing and not letting me press the case down.

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[racepres]

Probably won't "stick" after Fireforming...Maybe?
Try one!!

[country gent]

If your suspecting spring in the press or mounting as the problem try a double stroke on a few cases. Measure after first stroke or sizing then size a second time if the cases come out the second stroke measurably smaller it may be stretch or spring of the press and or bench. You may have to run these cases thru the die 2 times or 3. I'm suspecting press spring here as when you inserted .010 between case head and shell holder you only got .002 change the other .008 had to go some where else. A heavy iron framed O or H framed press dosnt have the spring of the c-frames. Cast iron/steel frames have less spring than the aluminum frames also.

[toallmy]

I have had trouble with press springing in the past wile resizing over sized FC 07 300 win mag brass . A friend gave me a Pacific 007 o frame press that he no longer used that has become my resizing press so no more trouble with press springing . Lube them good and size multiple times wile turning them in the shell holder will probably get them right .

[racepres]

I have had trouble with press springing in the past wile resizing over sized FC 07 300 win mag brass . A friend gave me a Pacific 007 o frame press that he no longer used that has become my resizing press so no more trouble with press springing . Lube them good and size multiple times wile turning them in the shell holder will probably get them right .


^^ Made me smile...I bought my 007 NIB, quite some time ago...
FWIW The 007 label was intended to indicate that the press would be going strong in 2007!!!!!
So, I guess, been out of Warranty for ???? 10 Years???
LOL
No Problems with "spring" with mine either....

[hermans]

I have had the same problem loading several rifle calibers on my RCBS Rockchucker. I have RCBS, Redding, and Hornady dies.....could not concistently bump back the shoulders with the FL sizing dies.
So I just popped them in the lathe and removed about 1mm off each FL sizer die.....problem solved, since I can now adjust them properly.

[slackersean]

I bought some thicker wood for my bench. I initially went for atheistic looks and some boards may be flexing too much due to construction. If I still have this issue after rebuild, I just may buy a more durable press. Can't have too many presses right? Might also try turning down my die with my two arm lathe. I'm sure my muscles will love that workout.

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[racepres]

Borrow a friends WSSM die. [I think it is "fat" enough]
yer only going to need/want to push the shoulder back once...after that...neck size and go!!!

[slackersean]

Re-did my entire workbench top with stronger wood to eliminate flex. No improvement in shoulder bump. Sanded the shell holder and die down slightly. I got an extra few thousandths, so I'm now at 2.205. I could get the cases to chamber with a little force, but had to work magic to get them out. After all but resigning to the idea of buying a new non-Lee press, I decided to buy a set of Lee 300 win mag dies to try. They arrived today.

I screwed the sizing die into my press, installed the shell holder that came with, lubed the case up and inserted it into the press. One quick pull and into the rifle chamber it went. Slid the bolt forward (click). Loaded easily. Grabbed the bolt handle and turned it up to discharge. It turned and pulled back without any real effort. Grabbed two more cases and followed the same process. All cases chambered and ejected. All I can think is for some reason the RCBS die I have just wasn't produced right. RBCS said I could send the die and 5 cases for them to measure to see what they could do. I'm just going to stay with the Lee die for sizing and possibly use the RCBS dies after I get the sizes right.

Thanks everyone for your ideas and help with this issue.

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[toallmy]

All's well that ends well . Let us know what you find out from RCBS , just wondering what happened .

[racepres]

Cool thing is that now you have a Neck die!!!
Silver Lining you know!!!

[Gunners Mate]

Probably Just tolerance stacking in the machining process of the die,

[EDG]

I have measured the head to datum length of the cases formed by a lot of dies and the different brands tend to vary.
RCBS dies tend to fall half way between the GO and NO GO lengths of the SAAMI chamber drawings.

[tankgunner59]

I don't have any rifles that shoot belted ammo, but I'm glad I read this post all the way through. You guys on this forum are sooooo knowledgeable it blows my mind. For things, reloading, that I am ignorant of, this is the place to ask. This forum, and it's members, ROCKS!
Incidentally, almost all of my equipment is Lee and the only time I had one stick in the chamber was because of COAL being .002 over. Seated the boolit deeper by .003 and we were back on track.