Has 9mm come full circle?

[osteodoc08]

So I'm sitting here staring at my Colt LW commander. Just installed some TFO sights and sighted them in today. After a few adjustments, they were dead on at 15 yards. I proceeded to chew out the center of the target with the remaining ammo. I start thinking about the capacity because I also brought along my MP in 9mm. 8+1 vs 17+1. Double. If I bring another magazine along for each it is 8+1+8 vs 17+1+17. 17 vs 35. That's a huge difference in firepower.

Ive always been a dyed in the wool 45 guy. That's how I was raised. I've played with other calibers but lately have been more and more curious about the 9x19 as a viable carry caliber. I can carry OWB in GA and typically do if I have an outer garment. Most people are so oblivious to their surroundings, they don't even know. If it's something more formal. I'll carry my XDS in 45 via IWB King Tuk.

Im comfortable with the 45 but I can shoot the 9mm just as accurate but faster. It's just a matter of physics. Certainly the 45 will always take top honors for my most pleasurable caliber to load and shoot (in an auto loader). But there is no arguing capacity and it seems the effectiveness edge has been narrowed to be so minuscule, that's it's not even worth fussing about with the bullet advancements. One can always make the argument that 9mm expands to 45 but the 45 never shrinks, but cmon, the data and facts seem to point the 9mm is as effective as 40/45.

So do I try out a new carry gun in 9mm? Likely another XDS or XD compact or perhaps other plastic gun? I've tried them all out and the XDM series seems to fit my hand well as well as the MP 2. Nothing fits quite as well as my P226 TacOps, but that's a heavy gun.

Suggestions? Input? Advice?

[LUCKYDAWG13]

Right now I'm in the same boat i keep going back and forth between a L/W 1911 in 45 acp or 9mm

[BlackIce05]

I was in the same boat 6 months or so ago, and was about to get an XDS when I ran across a Bersa Thunder 9 UC Pro. I'm most comfortable shooting larger guns, always have been, my favorite has been my P227. I had never heard of that Bersa, but found one at a gun show and it felt good, a little heavier than the plastic guns since it's metal. But compact, very similar features to the sig, and reasonably priced. After I had it in my hand I had to get it and haven't regretted it once. It's smooth as can be, accurate, and I've only put 1500 rounds or so through it, but so far very reliable. Anyway, just my 2 cents and a frequently overlooked gun.

[Rick R]

I purchased a VP9 last year and put my 1911 in the safe for the duration. 16 rounds of 9mm vs 9 rounds of .45 including the chambered rounds. So far I'm just as accurate and faster on target for follow up shots. Ammo is cheaper, reloading components are cheaper. I've not tried cast in the VP9 due to the polygonal bore plus I don't own a 9mm mold.
I've seen what 124gr +P 9mm rounds do to road injured deer vs the .45 acp and it's not too shabby.
So far I'm quite satisfied I can take care of business with the 9mm but I still have a soft spot in my heart for guns where the caliber starts with a .4

[Uncle Jimbo]

Just my 2¢, but if you are comfortable with the 45 and you just stated that you are very good with it, you won't need more that one or two rounds to do what you need done. And chances of getting into a fire fight where you will need 35+ rounds are very slim to none.
And one 45 will do so much better than a 9.
But again, this is just on 2¢ worth.

[jmort]

We know that the .45 ACP is enough gun. The question is if the 9mm is adequate for self-defense? I believe it is. I really like the 9mm and appreciate how efficient the case is. 450 ft lbs out of that little guy. You can't really compare the two. The only question is if the 9mm is adequate for the intended purpose of stopping Goblins.

[35remington]

Given that the pistols people actually carry (G43s, Shields, etc) most often range from 7 to
9 shot capacity, proselytizing for the wonder of 15-18 shot autoloaders isn't very relevant on most days most people carry pistols, and almost nobody I know carries a large capacity pistol in the summer around here, probably being allergic to the prickly rash and sweaty nether regions.

Colder days and more clothing help hide fat autoloaders with pregnant grips, but what do you do when going to visit friends and sit for long periods carrying IWB with most of your concealing garments off?

Yep. The skinnier 7-9 shot autoloader gets the nod.

When a thin summer shirt is all that stands between my piece and exposing it an aluminum 38 snubby prints less than any of the 9mm and larger caliber autoloaders. I do not worry about the five shot capacity at all.

If you don't hit with the first rounds out of the magazine in a confrontation the odds of you winning go down drastically, and your odds of getting shot go way up the longer you engage. In all the gunfights I have viewed involving CCW holders nobody ever resolved the issue with the bottom rounds in a high capacity magazine....and nobody ever reloaded, either. I do carry spare magazines or speedloaders and practice reloading but the overwhelming likelihood is you have shot someone, been shot or the involved parties have run away long before a reload can help.

[35remington]

Maybe the better question to ask is......which gun lets me put the most accurate rounds on target in the shortest possible time, with the fewest shots per attempt to get the first hit in a gun I will actually carry?

More so than strictly capacity considerations. Find the gun that fits that criterion and carry that.

Why? Because in nearly every instance I have seen or heard about the guy that lands the first decent hit wins the fight, and that is not necessary related to high capacity pistols but rather the shootable ones.

[cainttype]

Projectile design, and performance potential, improves over time... Powders improve over time... Technology improves over time... All these variables will continue to improve.

A 9X19 will never be the equal of a 45 ACP... That will never change.
Any "data and facts" suggesting otherwise would have me seriously question the source, their motives, and the methodology used to determine those opinions.

That said, carry what you are comfortable and competent with.
Mindset and skill are the best weapons you can arm yourself with.

[Love Life]

I'm comfortable carrying either one. Holes kill stuff.

[Mytmousemalibu]

The venerable .45ACP forever has and always will be a good round but in my honest opinion, and it is that, an opinion, the ole 45 just isn't very relevant today. Now if your state restricts your capacity or you just don't care about that, well the 45 might suit you just fine. I like having the added firepower of capacity and 9mm delivers that above and beyond all other relevant defense rounds. What 9mm lacks in diameter over 45 it makes up for with velocity. Even with the same modern and advanced ammo technology loaded in both calibers, the .45ACP is still a low pressure cartridge and as loaded to SAAMI spec, its only going to go so far. Velocity does nasty things when applied properly and will 9mm being a fairly high pressure pistol round, this can be exploited. Look at the .357 Magnum, essentially the same size of bullet and it is very well known to be a devastating round. It can launch a heavier bullet but it makes good use of velocity with any weight. I am a believer in hydraulic shock and it takes velocity to make it work and again, 9mm is a good host with a hot, light for caliber round. I have my 9mm defensive guns full of the 90gr Lehigh XD non-expanding copper solid thay is loaded to +P+ and clocking in over 1600fps at 10ft from the muzzle. With a very effective bullet design and velocity like that, its going to cause serious disruption to the receiving party. I love my M&P 9's and while i can carry my fairly compact 9C with 13rds on tap, i can also stick a full size mag in it or even one with a Taran extension. I wouldn't trade it for a 45. Lots of of bad guys have been converted into worm food by the 9mm. It has been around and been proven to work. Many like to point fingers at the 86' FBI shooting for grounds of dismissal for the round but the actuality is, the terrible Winchester Silvertip ammo they were using shoulders the real blame. If those guys had the HST or Gold Dot back then, good chance the story would have been different.

[35remington]

Hmm. The "ole 45 being irrelevant today" must not account for the Smith and Wesson Shield in 45. And the single stack Glock and XDs and cut down 1911's as well as Commander and full size. And all the other compact 45s on the market.

And while it's probably true that the 9 is about as good as anything else in terms of defensive rounds, nobody is gonna make any kind of believable case that a 9 has more "stopping power" than a 40 or 45. Not unless ballistic sophistication is not at all your cup of tea. Pistol velocities are crawlingly slow compared to rifles, and those schooled in wound forensics note that pistol velocities confer no "hydraulic shock" effects including those in the range noted, which can be found in 40 and 45 lightweight "specialty ammo" as well.

The only credible arguments for the 9 are that it kicks less and holds sometimes very slightly more ammo than alternatives. That it has more power or makes a bigger wound than comparable alternatives in slightly larger calibers is absolutely not the fact of the matter because it does not.

In approximately the same size concealable carry pistols the capacity advantage of a nine over a 40 or 45 is one or two shots. Not a really significant difference unless you convince yourself it is. It isn't if you don't.

Great thing is there is something for everybody these days.

[Mytmousemalibu]

Hmm. The "ole 45 being irrelevant today" must not account for the Smith and Wesson Shield in 45. And the single stack Glock and XDs and cut down 1911's as well as Commander and full size. And all the other compact 45s on the market.

And while it's probably true that the 9 is about as good as anything else in terms of defensive rounds, nobody is gonna make any kind of believable case that a 9 has more "stopping power" than a 40 or 45. Not unless ballistic sophistication is not at all your cup of tea. Pistol velocities are crawlingly slow compared to rifles, and those schooled in wound forensics note that pistol velocities confer no "hydraulic shock" effects including those in the range noted, which can be found in 40 and 45 lightweight "specialty ammo" as well.

The only credible arguments for the 9 are that it kicks less and holds sometimes very slightly more ammo than alternatives. That it has more power or makes a bigger wound than comparable alternatives in slightly larger calibers is absolutely not the fact of the matter because it does not.

In approximately the same size concealable carry pistols the capacity advantage of a nine over a 40 or 45 is one or two shots. Not a really significant difference unless you convince yourself it is. It isn't if you don't.

Great thing is there is something for everybody these days.


Popularity and relevance are two different things. Sure, 45ACP is popular, it has been for a long time and will continue to be. Back when 45 came about, the best way to get wound ballistic improvements was by making a bigger hole which was really important since FMJ hardball was the most common type of bullet aside from cast designs. Hollow points and other radical ammo was a myth for the most part. We live in a vastly different time today. Wound ballistics go a lot deeper than just making a bigger hole. I should have been a little more specific on the hydraulic shock line. I don't really buy into for example, a high velocity shot to the chest cavity liquifying the brain and some of the other farcical ideas. I still believe upper end pistol rounds cause more significant damage by way of speed. The Lehigh XD bullet I chose for defense uses hydraulic displacement as its only mechanism for causing trauma. For what its worth, i have seen a number of gel tests with high velocity pistol rounds creating a wave signature in test medium that you don't see with slower rounds. There is supporting tests and studies both for and against it or proclaiming its real or isn't. That again is my own opinion.

[tranders]

Since you are familar with the XD line of pistols, look at the Mod2 Sub Compacts. They come in 45 acp and 9mm.
My Mod2 9mm is 13 rounds with the flush mag and 16 round with the extended mag. The grip feels great on these pistols and are not much thicker than your XDS.

I really like the 45acp,but I'm faster and more accurate with 9mm.

Good luck!

[cainttype]

The truth about "gel tests" is that most of those seen in gun rags and internet sites are useless examples of improper test mediums. Preparing and testing ballistic gelatin properly is a task that very few are equipped to do, so their "tests" and associated conclusions are practically worthless.
Studies and tests conducted by real experts in "Wound Ballistics" and the mechanics of incapacitation should be of interest to anyone curious about the subject, and will often present conclusions completely opposite of those reached by media gurus pushing bogus "science".

[35remington]

Don't get too pumped up about "hydraulic displacement" as a wounding mechanism with pistols unless you are into self deception.

Gelatin lacks the connective tissue and fibrous construction of real animal tissue and does not at all react like a living being because a living animal has very considerable ability to resist displacement of its tissues, unlike non cohesive gelatin.

What displacement that does occur usually causes little damage to tissues adjacent to the tissues actually struck by the bullet because the fibrous connected nature of said tissue allows it to return to its original location with little trauma and almost no harm. "Temporary cavity" effects really don't happen at pistol speeds.

Temporary cavities occurring at pistol velocities in gelatin are thought by credentialed authorities on the subject to have little or no wounding effects on most shots on human tissue.....and the 9mm is also firmly in that category. Even with the hopped up lighweight stuff.

If you want "hydraulic shock" better drag out the .270 or something equivalent that actually generates it and leave the pistol at home.

[dragon813gt]

I'm comfortable carrying either one. Holes kill stuff.

You carry that long slide RAMI?

[35remington]

The only really credible method for a pistol bullet to cause trauma is to actually hit the tissue it traumatized. The ability of a pistol bullet to damage tissue it does not strike is considered to be essentially nonexistent on living beings.

[Love Life]

You carry that long slide RAMI?

The RAMI 4.0? I, or my wife, carried it non stop when I had it. I gave it to my mom since it is such a compact gun it is easer for her to shoot. The full size plaskit guns got to front heavy for her as the mag emptied...and she is getting older, lol.

How do you like your CZ? IIRC your CZ had the midsize frame with the RAMI slide, and mine has the RAMI frame with the PCR slide. The RAMI 4.0 is probably the best carry gun ever made.

[dragon813gt]

Mine is the XCR. I really like it. I've carried it a few times this winter. Not sure it will replace my PPS in the summer. I shoot the XCR better but that's to be expected w/ all the work done to it. I wish I had the mechanical skill to recreate both CZs myself. I'd like the give the 4.0 a try.

[Love Life]

I wish I had bought yours, lol. Maybe if we bug ThompsonCustom enough he will make some more.

[gnostic]

The caliber doesn't matter, it's more about. Is this handgun shooting where I'm looking? In a life or death situation, if you look for your sights, it'll probably be too late. You're way better off with a handgun that points instinctively, then picking by caliber...

[dragon813gt]

I wish I had bought yours, lol. Maybe if we bug ThompsonCustom enough he will make some more.

I'm down, I've been wanting to buy a RAMI anyway. And who likes stock guns ;)

I'm sure my FFL will just shake his head if another Franken CZ comes in. He knew something was up because the serial numbers weren't matching. When I told him what was done he said I should have bought a 1911 :laugh:

[beezapilot]

On the same thought of 9mm coming full circle, but a different angle. 30 some years ago my wife bought me a Blackhawk in .357... loved it then, love it now. The revolver came with a little red bag... 9mm cylinder? Really? Tossed that in the back of the gun cabinet and pretty much forgot about it. Now I go to the range and pick up hundreds of 9mm brass, haven't picked up a piece of .38 brass in years... dug that cylinder out of the back of the cabinet a few months ago Yep, love my Blackhawk in 9mm... somewhere in the back of my cabinet is a .357 cylinder....

My wife and I both have Springfield XD's- we both like them better than the M's, and the Mrs. prefers it to her Glock. The Springfields are the least picky eaters of any 9mm I've ever handled.

I got this in last night- you can't argue with .45ACP knockdown
https://gfycat.com/SillyEnormousIntermediateegret

[RoyEllis]

The only really credible method for a pistol bullet to cause trauma is to actually hit the tissue it traumatized. The ability of a pistol bullet to damage tissue it does not strike is considered to be essentially nonexistent on living beings.

With respect to pistols that may be carried for self defense, I whole-heartedly agree. As a "blanket statement" covering ALL pistols, it is incorrect, as some do exist that most certainly are capable of causing hydrostatic damage that were not struck directly. Those would, however, be extremely difficult for any concealed carry (short of a briefcase lol) and most definitely be a very poor choice for general self defense use. Outside of some low grade Hollywood BS movie, nobody would actually try to carry a BFR, Desert Eagle .50 or other monstrous hand cannons concealed daily.

[Mytmousemalibu]

With respect to pistols that may be carried for self defense, I whole-heartedly agree. As a "blanket statement" covering ALL pistols, it is incorrect, as some do exist that most certainly are capable of causing hydrostatic damage that were not struck directly. Those would, however, be extremely difficult for any concealed carry (short of a briefcase lol) and most definitely be a very poor choice for general self defense use. Outside of some low grade Hollywood BS movie, nobody would actually try to carry a BFR, Desert Eagle .50 or other monstrous hand cannons concealed daily.


A guy could still go out and get a number of pistols and a custom barrel in a number of duty size guns chambered for 9x25 Dillon if you like hot rod pistols. Underwood Ammo loads several 90gr copper monolithics that clock in at 2000fps! There are some other choices in the same boat. A duty size .357SIG can put down some brutal numbers in a duty size gun. My old Tokarev Is no slouch either, around 1700fps from the warmer spectrum. If you don't mind small caliber, the. 22TCM is a pretty potent round in the velocity wars or that new 7.5 Brno FK Field gun is crazy. There are certainly choices that a guy could put on his belt that aren't obscene.

And I do grasp that ballistics gel is not a direct analog for a living thing. It is a barometer to compare by more than anything. More valuable information is in studies and actual real life wound ballistics.

[Idaho45guy]

My dad and brother and I had this same argument last year which resulted in me buying a Shield in 9mm. My first 9mm since 1986. Loved the size and I found that I actually carried a lot more often with the smaller pistol.

However, the Shield turned out to be a lemon and when I looked to replace it, I went back to .40 S&W. I have one less round in a sub-compact pistol.

In the latest hi-performance ammo from Sig Sauer, the 9mm has a max of 374 ft.lbs. The 45 ACP has 407 ft.lbs and the .40 S&W has 435 ft.lbs.

The main arguments for the 9mm don't apply to me. Capacity is very close in pocket pistols, I reload my own ammo, I can handle the recoil of the .40, and an extra 61 ft.lbs of energy is significant to me.

[Tackleberry41]

The 9mm/45 war never really ended. I have known people who would argue all day one way or another on the issue. I knew a guy who basically felt if its not a 45 ACP, they shouldn't make it. If you went into the shop he worked at, no matter what you asked for, what you really wanted was a 45ACP. And went as far as lower trade value on other calibers. Oh he thought it was cool I built a 1911 out of a frame he was gonna toss, but he never would shoot it not being 45. Whatever more ammo for me.

I never picked a side in the war. My first pistol was a 9mm Browning HP knock off, still have it, one of my favorite pistols. But the next one was a 1911 in 45, still have it to. I like the 45, just don't like carrying one. A 1911 and 2 spare mags weighs a whole lot more than a 9mm with 2x the ammo. Went and got a S&W shield in 9mm, would like one in 45, but there's always something else at the shop to buy, since I really don't need that many carry guns. 9mm is way cheaper to shoot, buying or reloading. And I dont really feel undergunned with the 9mm shield. If I was dropping into Normandy, be different. But if 14rds of 9mm don't stop a robber at a convenience store, I need to work on my aim.

[jmort]

The higher performance ammunition front Underwood, Buffalo Bore, etc. Is 450 ft lbs plus. There is no war between 9mm and .45 ACP, as the .45 is more gun. It is pointless to try a dirrect comparison between them. I picked 9mm. Works for me.

[NoAngel]

The whole debate is retarded. Carry what you can accurately shoot because ONLY hits count. A .22 short that hits it's target beats a .700 Nitro Express that misses.

As far as 9mm being adequate? The graveyards are full of people who think it is MORE than adequate.

[kmrra]

My go to gun is a full sized 1911, I love it , I have 1911s in all cal from 22 to 45 , but my 9mm is my favorite

[Lefty Red]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170204/65daa35863144ccfd0ab0849b8ee099c.jpg


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[dragon813gt]

That sums it up perfectly.

[Lefty Red]

http://www.ammoland.com/2015/01/handgun-caliber-doesnt-matter/#axzz4OyZ2HLd7



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[Blammer]

xd in 45acp, 14rnds of 45acp, what's not to like, plus shooting something twice with a 9mm is just silly.... :)

plus, I'm not going to combat or a battle with a handgun, enough to defend and get away. Heck if I know I'm going to a gunfight I'll follow a few rules.


1. Bring a rifle.
2. bring all your friends who have rifles.
3. cheat and win, it's all that matters.

[bedbugbilly]

I'm sort of on the opposite end. I've always carried a .38 J frame and then went to a 9mm Shield. The Shield is an excellent pistol and it functions well . . . but now I'm thinking of stepping up to a .45 ACP for carry - and I'm looking at one of the smaller Springfield double stacks. I carry OWB with a shirt tail out or a jacket in both MI and AZ. I think it all boils down to what you are comfortable with. Here in AZ, we're close to the border and a lot of stuff goes on. I say that if a 0mm gives you peace of mind - then go with it. If a 45 gives you more peace of mind - then go with that.

[Shiloh]

We know that the .45 ACP is enough gun. The question is if the 9mm is adequate for self-defense? I believe it is. I really like the 9mm and appreciate how efficient the case is. 450 ft lbs out of that little guy. You can't really compare the two. The only question is if the 9mm is adequate for the intended purpose of stopping Goblins.

Jeff Cooper referred to bad guy scumbags as Goblins.

Shiloh

[jmort]

Yes, it is a homage
Except, he was not big on the 9mm
45 ACP, he liked that

[adcoch1]

I shoot 44 mag cause 45 and 9mm are too puny! JK, either is fine with good ammo, 45 is good with ball ammo still, and if I believe I will actually be somewhere dangerous my handgun is only to get me back to my rifle in the car. If i lived in a big city though i would carry a gun that held at least 10 shots. Or maybe multiple guns that could hold that many. Or maybe a tank... The real problem for me is how expensive 45 handguns that i want are. 9mm guns are usually a LOT cheaper...

[charlie b]

I was fortunate to sit in on a conversation between two retired vets. One SAS, one SF. They both loved their sidearms. SAS carried the Browning HP and the SF carried a 1911. Neither one had anything bad to say about their choices. Both adhered to the triple tap (two to chest, one to head). They also admitted that most 'chest' shots were heart stoppers and that the head shots were mainly in case the other guy was wearing armor or to make sure the guy never moved again.

Bottom line was, shoot accurately. They admitted that 99% of the pistol shots were room distances. Anything longer range was done with a rifle.

Temporary cavities? Don't care if they work or not. Hit something vital with the bullet. Heart, head, spine. Hip shots are good for making them go down but may not keep them from shooting back.

If you don't hit anything vital it really doesn't matter much as you have to wait for them to bleed out.

[ioon44]

Yea, it is all about bullet placement.

[35remington]

It is of course true that if you go to a bigger gun and gain more case capacity and rifle like velocities pistol rounds start doing more tissue damage, but my point was never to include arms that everyone leaves in the safe when they are about their business of living their lives.

My point was that if you're making some kind of argument that the 9mm is somehow better than alternatives, said argument cannot ever include the statement that it is superior in wounding effect compared to alternatives available in comparably sized pistols, because it is not. No credible authority argues in such a way

[jski]

Consider this, the jihadi Joe in Paris this week was hit 5 times in the abdomen with a 9mm and lived. Would he have survived had he been hit 5 times with a .45ACP?

[mcdaniel.mac]

Consider this, the jihadi Joe in Paris this week was hit 5 times in the abdomen with a 9mm and lived. Would he have survived had he been hit 5 times with a .45ACP?
Given the same shot placement, yes. If expanding ammunition was used then the difference between the wound channels is very little if any at all, on the order of .08" or less. If ball ammo, then the difference is .10" or less.

.05" (the difference in radius) isn't likely to cause a debilitating wound in any but the most highly improbably scenarios.

[Lefty Red]

Consider this, the jihadi Joe in Paris this week was hit 5 times in the abdomen with a 9mm and lived. Would he have survived had he been hit 5 times with a .45ACP?

Yes, it's all about shot placement.

The difference between a 9 and 45 is two penny's width difference. Not allot!

"A wad cutter in the eye is more effective than a exploding bullet in the foot."

Lefty


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[Lloyd Smale]

used to hate 9s and wouldn't own one. that's until I put my predudice aside and shot one. I think what did it for me was a 9mm sti Trojan I bought. I was shooting ppc a lot them and thought id try something that took less recovery time between shots. That sti was hands down the most accurate 1911 ive ever owned and a ball to shoot and cheaper to shoot to boot. I still love 45acps but looking in my safe I probably own twice as many 9s as I do 45s anymore. With the inflated price of 22lr shells a guy can cast and shoot 9s in many cases cheaper then 22s. With a proper bullet and load there not a whole lot less effective as a self defense gun either and they come in sizes that are much easier to conceal. Even an officers 1911 prints a lot more and is a lot heavier then something like a glock 43.

[Lloyd Smale]

id bet that slower bigger bullet wouldn't have created any bigger wound channel and if so the amount would be minimal. Bottom line is no pistol is a stopper and shoot anyone in the gut with a 500 linebaugh and your not going to blow him off his feet and id about bet hed be breathing long enough to return the favor and shoot you. If you want to stop someone shot them in the central nervous system and if you do the caliber doesn't mean a lot.
Consider this, the jihadi Joe in Paris this week was hit 5 times in the abdomen with a 9mm and lived. Would he have survived had he been hit 5 times with a .45ACP?

[Combat Diver]

Go with whatever you're comfortable with. For years in Iraq I carried about the same amount of ammo (ONE round difference) between a M1911A1 or M9.

For the M1911A1 8+1 in the gun, two 8 round mags per pouch x 6 pouches = 105 rds of 230 gr M1911 ball
for the M9 15+1 in the gun, one 15 rd mag per pouch = 106 rds of 124gr M882 ball
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/9809Blacked_out_George_firing_MP44_2.JPG


CD

[Idaho45guy]

Ironic that the same arguments involving the 9mm vs. the .40 S&W or .45 acp are strikingly similar to the one regarding the 5.56 vs. the 7.62x39 or 6.8spc or .300 Blackout...

I wonder how many of those arguing in favor of the 9mm in one discussion are arguing in favor of the bigger and slower round in the other...

[mcdaniel.mac]

If .300 Blackout changed the size of the hand grip, you might have a point. If it cut capacity in half, you'd have a very good point. If 5.56 and .300 Blackout performed almost exactly the same both supersonic and subsonic, you'd be making a very solid case, but none of those are the case for rifles, and the merits of .300 Blackout over 5.56 in certain scenarios are real (suppression, essentially) whereas no such merit exists for .40 or .45 over 9mm.

[jski]

Now does anyone truly believe the 9mm creates the same wound cavity (+ or - some small %) you'd get from a 45ACP? DOES ANYONE REALLY, TRULY BELIEVE THAT?

Doesn't slow and fat beat lean and fast pretty much every time?

[mcdaniel.mac]

Now does anyone truly believe the 9mm creates the same wound cavity (+ or - some small %) you'd get from a 45ACP? DO ANYONE REALLY, TRULY BELIEVE THAT?

Doesn't slow and fat beat lean and fast pretty much every time?
The wound cavity is a few hundredths of an inch, not enough to matter.

Fast and light beats slow and fat for many applications. Varminting, long range, and PDWs. The hard and fast rule is that nothing beats anything else every time.

[shoot-n-lead]

and PDWs.

Not hardly.

[mcdaniel.mac]

Not hardly.
Having handled the P90, MAC 10 and M11 in 9mm and .380, United in 9mm and .45, MP5 and MP5-10, various ARs from 5.7 to .300blk, and the Kriss in .45 and UMP in three flavors I have to ask which PDWS you think performs best with slow, fat bullets. Under 200m, 5.7 and 110-125gr .300blk will do anything a 10mm or .45 will do, and with the P90 in particular and a 5.56 can it's quiet enough for light earplugs and can be employed one-handed. That's about perfect for crew or Corpsman, logistical nightmare aside.

When you need compact, fast, accurate, light, and armor-piercing light and fast bullets in a high-capacity PDW is the way to go.

[Lloyd Smale]

problem is were talking ball ammo. Its like asking which rifle a 2506 270 or 3006 is the better deer rifle. With expanding bullets I doubt a deer would know the difference which hit it. Swap them out for fmj bullets and again I would doubt the deer would react a bit differently shot by any of the 3. Id also about bet if that deer could shoot back it would have plenty of time to shoot you before it expired after being shot by a fmj bullet unless a central nervous system shot was taken and again then if you did hit the central nervous system I doubt if any of the 3 using fmj would kill a second quicker. Shot placement with a handgun using ball bullets trumps size every time. I really doubt if someone shot in the heart or brain with a 9mm is going to live a second longer then one hit with a 45. Its also very true that a shot in a non vital area with a 500 linebaugh is a lot less effective then a 9mm in the lungs. Ill surrender to the fact that a 230 grain 45 probably will out penetrate a 125 grain 9mm but the chest of a man is pretty slim and theres not a lot of big bone and its less of a penetration problem then even a white tail is.
Now does anyone truly believe the 9mm creates the same wound cavity (+ or - some small %) you'd get from a 45ACP? DO ANYONE REALLY, TRULY BELIEVE THAT?

Doesn't slow and fat beat lean and fast pretty much every time?

[Char-Gar]

The 9mm vs. the 45 ACP has gone round and round for decades with no consensus yet and I expect there never will be.

Elmer Keith counseled to carry the biggest caliber you could shoot well. That is good advice. Taken on the whole, a 45 caliber hole is better than a 35 caliber hole. Ammo choice with the 9mm is more critical than with the 45 ACP.

Either will do the job in the hands of man who can shoot and keep his wits about him at the same time. I carry both and see no reason to change that pattern. I cease to worry about this question many years ago.

[popper]

jihadi Joe in Paris like the cartoon pink panther drinking coffee?

[Cold Trigger Finger]

I went the other way and got a G20 a few years ago and have packed it ever since. I have a greater chance of needing to stop an aggressive moose in the yard than I do a 2 legged predator so the 10 is kindof a gap bridger. I shoot 220 gr. Hard Cast TC @1200 fps for 4 footed problems and currently 200 gr XTP @ 1200 fps for other problems. . I tried 155s but they were radically different in poi.
It is most important to hit a vital spot with any firearm . Bigger or harder bullets just allow the vital spot to be on the far side of the target. . A 115 gr bullet @ 1200 fps as opposed to a 200 gr bullet @ 1200 fps. Tho the 115 may well do similar damage to soft tissue as the 200. The 200 gr bullet will smash big bones like the spine , hips, ball and socket joints.
I dont feel under gunned with a 9 . But as I wear my 10 all the time everyday. I don't have a problem with its size or weight. Tho not a pocket pistol. Its not hard to conceal. But then I'm in Alaska so wearing plenty of clothes is normal.

[Lloyd Smale]

I for one wont argue against the 10mm. I love mine. That said it sure wouldn't be a good pick for an issue gun for our military. Just a bit to much recoil and noise for an inexperienced shooter.
I went the other way and got a G20 a few years ago and have packed it ever since. I have a greater chance of needing to stop an aggressive moose in the yard than I do a 2 legged predator so the 10 is kindof a gap bridger. I shoot 220 gr. Hard Cast TC @1200 fps for 4 footed problems and currently 200 gr XTP @ 1200 fps for other problems. . I tried 155s but they were radically different in poi.
It is most important to hit a vital spot with any firearm . Bigger or harder bullets just allow the vital spot to be on the far side of the target. . A 115 gr bullet @ 1200 fps as opposed to a 200 gr bullet @ 1200 fps. Tho the 115 may well do similar damage to soft tissue as the 200. The 200 gr bullet will smash big bones like the spine , hips, ball and socket joints.
I dont feel under gunned with a 9 . But as I wear my 10 all the time everyday. I don't have a problem with its size or weight. Tho not a pocket pistol. Its not hard to conceal. But then I'm in Alaska so wearing plenty of clothes is normal.

[GhostHawk]

I don't think it is calibers that change so much as people.

People go through changes all the time. So I think you have cycled back to where you see 9mm as a good choice. Which IMO it is. Along with .357 mag, .40sw, and .45acp.