Bp silhouette groups size

[LynC2]

A friend asked me what I thought would be the maximum M.O.A. group size I thought would be ok for BP silhouette competition. Naturally being a wise a** I replied the smallest you can get, but I would check with the gang which has far more experience than I, as I am a neophyte at it. So, what does everyone think? :grin:
Lyn

[Gunlaker]

I think it depends on your goals. If a rifleman has never shot a match then any group that is small enough that you can make sense of enough to make wind corrections would suffice to get into the game. Now if it's other than that, it's as small as you can get :-).

I still have the last practice target I fired at 200m before my very first silhouette match. It was after just a few weeks of prone practice. Not very impressive, probably 3 minutes of angle, but 9 of the 15 were in the ten ring at least. I managed to finish right in the middle of the pack, even with not very consistent shooting. I'm a lot more consistent than that now, but I did have fun.

Lots of people talk about minute of angle rifles and all of that, but shooting prone and in the wind at any sort of distance cause group sizes to get big fast. I am a fan of the BPTR game rather than silhouette. Most of the time the ten ring is 2 minutes in size. Perfect scores beyond 200 yards aren't really common. It's just too easy to loose a shot on a wind miscalculation, or a bad shot break.

I think you can analyze targets in a better way than absolute group size, but that's another can of worms.

Chris.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

chris gives refreshingly honest advice.
any shooting is a game of statistics.
in the case of sil, the statistics are that all shots on any target must be in a 2 moa group to get all shots on the target.
rams and pigs give you some latitude on that sideways, but chickens and turkeys require a circular group.
any shot outside that group which takes down a target is luck, as opposed to good stats. e.g. a turkey hit in the head, or a ram in the horn or the pizzle.
to shoot consistent 2 moa groups, the rifle must deliver better than this.
human error adds to rifle capability.
spotter error the same. wind will make a 2moa circle into a 2moa high oblong, hence higher scores on pigs and rams than turkeys.
no wind is better you might think.
certainly sideways deflection is reduced, but group height will increase due to the target staying in the same place, but its seen position rising due to light bending as mirage boils, seen or unseen.
as chris says, the bull is 2 moa in bptr, and very few shooters score a possible.
to guarantee 40/40 sils, that is how well you need to shoot.
probably good sil shooters hit more animals than good tr shooters hit bulls because sils have bits added on to the circle.
then you have to knock the sil down every time.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Chill Wills]

A friend asked me what I thought would be the maximum M.O.A. group size I thought would be ok for BP silhouette competition. Naturally being a wise a** I replied the smallest you can get, but I would check with the gang which has far more experience than I, as I am a neophyte at it. So, what does everyone think? :grin:
Lyn

I think your wise guy answer is the correct one.
Bring your best game to the match and (both) learn and have fun.
After all, this past time is only is for fun.

Some riflemen make the error thinking they would not even go unless they have the worlds best rifle shooting the most accurate ammo.

Lyn, The best advice you can offer a new shooter is "come out" "play" "have fun" You will learn as you go, and fast too!

I have yet to see a new to the game person get laughed it! Not Hardly!
As we all know, it is just the opposite. Everyone wants to help them and hope they have a good enough time that they will come back. (then we laugh!) Okay:kidding:

[country gent]

Group size is related on several things, especially if shooting iron sights like BPCR shooters do. Shooters skill level, loading skills, bench or position skills, and last is inherent accuracy of the arm load combo. AThe best rifle ammo combo wont make a begineer a high master right off the start. Find a consistent load that's repeatable over several different days shooting. Do look for smaller groups and consistency. Then get out and just do it, if possible get with a good shooter and learn. Get over the "match" nerves, get comfortable with what your doing, and practice practice practice. Not just live fire but dry fire also. Get comfortable with the gear, its set-up and use. A seasoned competitor makes it look easy simply from the practice and comfort knowing what to do. As you skills progress so will the accuracy of the rifle loads you produce.

[Lead pot]

LynC2
Here read this. http://gunsmagazine.com/bpcr-silhouette/ Mike has been at this game for a long time.

[KCSO]

With iron sights if you can shoot into 2 moa you will be in the ball park. I look for under 6 inches at 300 yards.

[Lead pot]

I just started shooting silhouettes last year and before last year I shot mostly long range and have a rifle I call my silhouette rifle that will hold 3" at 200 yards even better at times. 2 MOA might do it to be competitive, I don't think so with shooter error or missed wind calls. I never measured a silhouette so cant say for sure, but if you draw a 2 MOA circle from the center I think you would cover it from top to bottom so it will give you a little leeway for missed wind calls but not for vertical. My 2MOA or better I have a hard time hitting a 4.5 MOA black bull at 800 to 1000 yards.
But like Mr. Wills said........just come on out a play and you will find out what you need to do to stay on iron or paper. It's very addictive :)
Kurt

[LynC2]

Thank you everyone for the input. I actually was thinking 2 MOA was about the max acceptable group size and of course smaller is definitely better to give one a greater margin of error. I shot my first match last year to get a classification and then shot the Nationals at Raton. Unfortunately I was recovering from a major illness at the Nationals and didn't shoot as well as I could have, but it was sure lots of fun. I've shot enough Palma and NRA hi-power to be very aware of the effect conditions have on bullets, but it seems like with BPCR the conditions are multiplied by a factor of 3 or more. I have a long way to go, but it is going to be fun!
:drinks:
BTW, Leadpot thanks for the link. It is a good read and I will send it to my friend.

[Gunlaker]

Kurt this is the problem when it comes to just stating an angular group size. How is the rifle being shot and at what distance. I think a lot of people assume it's 100 yards and shot from the bench. I never do that. Pretty much all of my practice shooting is done from an NRA legal ( or as close to it as I can get ) prone position and at 200 meters or 300 yards.

Personally I consider a load to be reasonable if from a legal prone position at 200 meters, it will can hold 1.25 minutes of vertical for 10 shots out of a 12 shot group. I generally make a couple of errors on every target so I don't mind a few flyers, as long as they are called.

I don't worry so much about the horizontal. I just assume that errors here are mine. As an example , yesterday I was shooting in some really swirly blustery winds at 300 with my .45-90. My group of 14 shots had a couple of flyers, but the remainder were about a minute high, by way wider :-). I think it's a decent load as I've previously put 8 or 9 shots into under a minute at 200, but conditions made t much worse.

Lots of guns might shoot well from a bench at short distance, but almost none will hold 2 minutes total at long range in the wind for a full string during a match.

Chris.

[M-Tecs]

For centerfire rifle with jacketed holding 1/2 MOA is not difficult. I have much less experience with BPCR rifles but consistently holding 2 MOA is a constant battle for me. Yes I have shot much smaller groups but I can not do it on demand.

[Lead pot]

Chris.
That is what I meant with shooters error.
I would almost be confident to say all of my misses start between the cans covering my ears. :)

[Gunlaker]

I know exactly what you mean :-)

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

If you can consistently hold a 2 moa group at 500 meters, the rams would be no problem , if the wind and mirage don't get to you.

[Nobade]

And this is why BPCR appeals to me so much. If a BP rifle shoots right where you pointed it every time, you are happy. And normal people can't point one much better than 2 MOA. But with the modern rifles I build, unless it will group under 1/2 MOA the customers are complaining. Never mind most of them are not capable of shooting any rifle better than that, with their modern scopes and all those internet gurus telling them it should they have very high expectations. I try to explain that the rifle needs to be capable of doing the job you set out for it. Shooting a deer at 200 yards? OK, a 1.5 MOA rifle is plenty good. Shooting a 1/2 MOA piece of steel at 800 yards? Yes, we need a better rifle. I tend to not want to put much stock in absolute group sizes, but rather is it good enough? A consistent 2 MOA BPCR rifle will win every time if you are capable of driving it correctly. (as will a centerfire highpower silhouette rifle for that matter.)

-Nobade

[Don McDowell]

Good post Nobade. We see the occasional High Master high power shooter get his brand new bpcr, and try and try to shoot those tiny groups he's used to and then dissappear..
A lot of folks just can't get their head wrapped around that even at 300 yds, a tiny bit of breeze with some mirage, that wouldn't even make their 168 gr SMK shudder, will throw a 535 gr money bullet out of the black..

[M-Tecs]

With my 308 using 168 MK's I get 108" drift at 1,000 yards with a 10 mph wind. With my 535 grain 45 cal. I get 150" at a 1,000 yards.

[LynC2]

Good post Nobade. We see the occasional High Master high power shooter get his brand new bpcr, and try and try to shoot those tiny groups he's used to and then dissappear..
A lot of folks just can't get their head wrapped around that even at 300 yds, a tiny bit of breeze with some mirage, that wouldn't even make their 168 gr SMK shudder, will throw a 535 gr money bullet out of the black..

Ok Don, stop picking on me! :bigsmyl2: I'm not going to going to quit playing BPCR, it is too much fun!

[Don McDowell]

:kidding: Hope to see you at Raton in a few short months Lyn.

[Bent Ramrod]

I remember that Mike Venturino wrote this somewhere:

"I used to obsess about group sizes. Now I'm just interested in hitting stuff."

Everybody likes spectacularly small shot diagrams, "Official Screamer Groups," or whatever, but it seems to me that once the handloading is down to an average 2MOA, day in and day out, one's time is better spent in shooting practice with that load than the endless further evaluation of wad hardnesses, the extra thousandth of compression, or whatever. After a certain point, handloading nuances that afford further improvements seem to generate themselves: your time frame in pouring through the drop tube gets more regular; the boolits you cast have fewer rejects, your powder measure operation gets more consistent, etc. Your body starts programming itself.

This is not to say that experimentation isn't fun; it's a riot, at least for me. But the OP's stated intent was what it takes to hit targets. A friend at work had a poster on his wall that said:

"There comes a point in the course of every project when it becomes necessary to SHOOT THE ENGINEERS and start production." (He was an engineer himself.)

[Lead pot]

:D I worked with a few engineers I would liked to have done to. :D
Just think the practice they get working that group down to a moa. :D

[Gunlaker]

Bent Ramrod I think you are right that time is better spent behind the trigger than too many experiments with tiny changes to the loads. Until I started shooting in competition a few years ago, I wasted tons of time with tiny variables. Now I might try a couple of changes on a developed load per year. Most of my time is spent shooting loads that hold good vertical. I am shooting much better as a result, but still have a ways to go to be a serious threat to the master class shooters.

Chris.

[BrentD]

I dunno. I spent years chasing better loads and that was hardly time wasted. It also greatly increased my ability to break a trigger and watch the wind.

Do what ya can and have fun. Some folks, sometimes me included, get a lot of joy out of playing with experimental bullets or loading methods. Keeps life interesting. Practice, esp, meaningful BPTR or BPCR practice is, for me, basically unobtainable in these parts. So, experimentation keeps my barrel warm and my finger exercised.

Do what trips your trigger (pun totally intended).

[BRUCE MOULDS]

there is an overlooked issue with sils.
that is how well and consistently you can aim.
with tatget rifle the aiming mark is round, as is the foresight.
these concentric circles work how the brain works.
sils are an odd shape, and while some use rectangular elements, there is no concentricity.
to aim consistently on the different sil targets takes a lot of practice.
your brain has to recognise the same centre of mass for every shot.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Nobade]

:kidding: Hope to see you at Raton in a few short months Lyn.

We are going to make sure he is there!

-Nobade

[Don McDowell]

Good deal you guys ought to load 150 rounds and head to Phoenix next month for the 1000 yd match

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

[Gunlaker]

Bruce that's why I am going to switch to a scope for silhouette. My eyes are just barely good enough to consistently center the turkeys anymore.

Don, I'm starting my loading this week :-). We will see if I have learned anything since last time.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

I have enough greasers loaded for that match, weather hasn't been particularly cooperative to get enough slicks done. So I'll use these I had left from last year. If the weather cooperates I'll get some patched and loaded, then it'll be up to which one the CPA likes best when we get there.

[LynC2]

:kidding: Hope to see you at Raton in a few short months Lyn.

Don, I am looking forward to meeting you in person. You have been a great help on the forum. I am planning on going if "God willing and the creek don't rise ". Besides there might be a lynching with me as the "guest of honor" if I don't go and with Nobade presiding. lol

[Don McDowell]

Lyn plan is to be there on the 2nd for the lever gun and stay on thru. Looking forward to meeting you and Nobade

[Silo65]

Been shooting silhouette for 20+ years in SB, HP, and CB. The targets in SB and HP are the same as BP and IF you can hold dead center, then a rifle that shoots any more than 2 moa will put you off target. I'm a confirmed AA shooter so I cannot hold dead center 100% of the time and I try to load for 1 moa to give me a little more wiggle room. It's easy to confuse what the rifle can shoot and what you can hold, and a whole lot easier to let the possibility of a bad rifle or load get in your head. The mental game is as important as the equipment for us shooters below AAA. IMO, load the best you can and shoot for a rifle/load combination that you honestly believe is 1 moa or better to alleviate the mental doubt in your rifle.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

chris,
we expect nothing but headshots from now on.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Gunlaker]

Bruce, I have once tried an MVA scope in silhouette and was convinced I'd hit every one of the prone targets. For a variety of reasons I posted my worst ever silhouette score. It was a very humbling experience. I have a friend who had the exact same experience :-).

I have a lot more experience with scope shooting now and did reasonably well with it last year in a LR match. We'll see how it works for silhouette. I think pretty well for the prone targets, but I don't like scopes for off hand.

I probably won't try for the heads, even with the scope :-)

Chris.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

chris,
sil scopes have plus and minus features.
on the plus side, you can aim specifically, which in turn allows aiming off to some degree.
on the minus side, making adjustments for wind and elevation is not that easy with speed.
whatever you do, the main thing is to have fun and enjoy the journey.
once you consistently hit heads, you can go for eye sockets.........
keep safe,
bruce.

[Chill Wills]

I've often dreamed of building an indoor shooting shed. 25 feet wide and 1000 yards long - 50 feet tall in the center.

Hmmm....

My wife would never see me again.

[Gunlaker]

This is a very good idea :-)

You could even add big fans in various places to make wind that you could control.

Chris.

[BrentD]

Michael, you could rent it out to pay for it. We would all like to borrow it. Probably could pair it up with a B & B operation too. When do you expect to open?

:p:p

[Don McDowell]

Brent I was thinking the same thing. Sure hope he builds plenty of sleeping quarters and kitchen facility into the plan.:p

[Lead pot]

I'm one those guys that likes to experiment with loads and bullets even when I have a good load.

I like the idea of a indoor 1000 yard range :) I would even bring a box of nails and hammer and help build it. LOL.

30 years ago I got a call from one of my friends and he asked me if I could bring my backhoe over and help him build a range. I said sure see you Saturday morning. I thought he only wanted me to pile up some dirt for a berm......Wrong when I got to his house there was a bunch of 4 foot round cement manhole barrels. I said what are you going to do with those?????? he said build a 100 yard underground rifle range attached to the basement. I said good idea. :) It didn't take long and we got it done. At the end we build a up glance bullet trap with a large exhaust fan to keep the air moving down range. Cut a hole through the basement wall and got it water tight and a well insulated room so quiet the shots up in the bed room just sounded like quiet snaps.

[DIRT Farmer]

Is the match in Phoenix AZ at Ben Avery March 9-12-17?

[Gunlaker]

Is the match in Phoenix AZ at Ben Avery March 9-12-17?

Yessir. Here is some info:

http://www.arizonavintagerifle.com/1000%20Yd%20Championship.html

Michael, let me know when you get that BPTR B&B going. At least you'd probably know most of the clientele :-)

Chris.

[DIRT Farmer]

I will be out for the muzzleloading matches the week before, Im taking the Gibbs along for that match. There is supposed to be a 900 and 1000 fun match. i have a 45-70 rolling block that I have never worked up a load for. It would make for a good week to stay and start learning BPCR