Mossberg 14" - No NFA Stamp Required,

[DCP]

Have you always wanted to own a short-barreled shotgun but not wanted to deal with the NFA hassle? Well, now there is an easy and simple (and factory-direct) way to do it. The new 590 Shockwave from Mossberg is a 14-inch barreled shotgun that is classified and fully compliant by the BATFE, and does not require a tax stamp for transfers.

(https://gastatic.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Screen-Shot-2017-01-30-at-1.43.13-PM.png)

https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/non-nfa-short-barreled-shotgun-new-14-mossberg-shockwave-shot-show-2017/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=20170201_SHOT17_8&utm_campaign=/blog/non-nfa-short-barreled-shotgun-new-14-mossberg-shockwave-shot-show-2017/

[Hickory]

This gun was posted here about a year ago.
If anyone decides to buy one, you need to keep the original box and receipt.
My local gun dealer won't touch it.

[jmort]

I doubt it will be a problem. No doubt Mossberg did its due diligence. I would like to have one for my .310" buckshot loads which are loaded to low recoil.

[Hickory]

As I recall it falls into the same category as an XP100 which is not classified as a short barreled rifle, because it was originally manufactured as a handgun, and not altered after manufacture.

[jmort]

Makes sense. I want a pair/brace.

[BK7saum]

Interesting. Surprised there was wiggle room for this to be a non -NFA item.

[BK7saum]

So it's a shot "pistol". I guess the 26" length is the trick. I was thinking short barreled shotgun pistols were a $5 AOW tax stamp. That may be because they are/were converted from a long gun. New niche. Just manufacture as a pistol to start withe.

[dragon813gt]

The ATF is known to reverse course. And it does it quite often. This one probably not so much because it doesn't have a butt stock. Which makes it a handgun not a SBS. I have no interest in these types of guns.

[mcdaniel.mac]

So it's a shot "pistol". I guess the 26" length is the trick. I was thinking short barreled shotgun pistols were a $5 AOW tax stamp. That may be because they are/were converted from a long gun. New niche. Just manufacture as a pistol to start withe.
AoW are, but AoW are defined as being shorter than 26" OAL. If take a rifle or shotgun that was manufactured with a stock and make it shorter than 26" or put on/cut down the barrel to less than 18", it is instead a short-barreled shotgun/short barreled rifle/weapon made from a rifle and is a $200 tax stamp.

I'm not a lawyer but my understanding of the law is that any firearm, rifled or smooth bore, with a bore diameter greater than .50" must either be a Destructive Device or get a sporting purpose exemption. Can anyone corroborate or contradict this? If so, Mossberg would have to have something in writing on this.

Between AR pistols with braces, these shotguns, and some of the other stuff coming out I have to wonder if ATF is intentionally sticking to the letter of the law in order to highlight the flaws of this particular octogenarian law.

[reddog81]

I'd guess that they get around the destructive device rule due to it shooting 12 Gauge shells. Here's a quote from the law "except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes"

I'd assume Mossberg did their homework and would be comfortable owning one, but I have no desire to own one. That's assuming they would be legal in Iowa where SBS and SBR are completely ineligible to be owned by citizens.

[FISH4BUGS]

I have a Mossberg with a 6" barrel and pistol grip. It is classed as an AOW with a $5 tax stamp. The shown one is built on an 870 receiver but they are the same. The front grip folds down and locks to aid in pumping rounds and control.
3 shot pump in 20 ga. A real hoot to shoot!
Personally I wouldn't take a chance on the Mossberg 14" barreled shotgun. The ATFE has been know to reverse their position more than once.
186856

[Mk42gunner]

My take on it is that it makes a better range toy, (with documentation) than a home defense or other general duty gun. Any run of the mill person not just police officer that sees it is going to think "ILLEGAL sawed off shotgun," and various histrionics may ensue.

Since I never developed an attraction for stockless or folding stocked small arms, I will pass on this.

Robert

[mcdaniel.mac]

I'm not gonna lie, I will probably end up with one of these. Maybe sell off my 20ga stuff to make some room. There's an adaptor to help Mossbergs cycle the 2" shells well, which would make a 3-shot tube into a 5-shot tube. Less recoil, too.

[Artful]

Well if you read up on it - it falls in a loop hole (as the libs like to call it) - it's not a shotgun, not a pistol, being 26" or longer it's not a AOW and weighing less than 10 lbs it's not a destructive device - so it's just a firearm that shoots 12 gauge shells.

If you changed from that funny birds head grip to a pistol grip you would have just made a Short barreled shotgun out of it. But left in the factory configuration it's fine as a range toy.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uc4bx3PERxg

[M-Tecs]

Don't need one but I want one.

[FISH4BUGS]

My take on it is that it makes a better range toy, (with documentation) than a home defense or other general duty gun. Any run of the mill person not just police officer that sees it is going to think "ILLEGAL sawed off shotgun," and various histrionics may ensue.
Robert
I never go to the range or anywhere with any of my NFA toys without the form 4's. I once showed the form 4 to a police officer and he didn't have a clue as to what it said or meant. I had to explain it to him.
He said "....well, it sure LOOKS official".

[marlin39a]

I'm on the wait list for one. The 590 is a great shotgun.

[Hickory]

I contacted Mossberg and will get the lowdown.

[nicholst55]

Do want!

[MaryB]

No thanks, the recoil from my 18" barreled 500 is bad enough with 00 buck!

[Artful]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-hhoYlC43c

[Sasquatch-1]

Take it for what it's worth, here is the U. S. Code that defines a short barrel shot gun.



https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5845

26 U.S. Code § 5845 - Definitions

(a) Firearm
The term “firearm” means (1) a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (2) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (5) any other weapon, as defined in subsection (e); (6) a machinegun; (7) any silencer (as defined in section 921 of title 18, United States Code); and (8) a destructive device. The term “firearm” shall not include an antique firearm or any device (other than a machinegun or destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the Secretary finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector’s item and is not likely to be used as a weapon.
(b) Machinegun
The term “machinegun” means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.
(c) Rifle
The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge.
(d) Shotgun
The term “shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of projectiles (ball shot) or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell.
(e) Any other weapon
The term “any other weapon” means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.
(f) Destructive device
The term “destructive device” means (1) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas (A) bomb, (B) grenade, (C) rocket having a propellent charge of more than four ounces, (D) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, (E) mine, or (F) similar device; (2) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes; and (3) any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into a destructive device as defined in subparagraphs (1) and (2) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled. The term “destructive device” shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10 of the United States Code; or any other device which the Secretary finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, or is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes.
(g) Antique firearm
The term “antique firearm” means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
(h) Unserviceable firearm
The term “unserviceable firearm” means a firearm which is incapable of discharging a shot by means of an explosive and incapable of being readily restored to a firing condition.
(i) Make
The term “make”, and the various derivatives of such word, shall include manufacturing (other than by one qualified to engage in such business under this chapter), putting together, altering, any combination of these, or otherwise producing a firearm.
(j) Transfer
The term “transfer” and the various derivatives of such word, shall include selling, assigning, pledging, leasing, loaning, giving away, or otherwise disposing of.
(k) Dealer
The term “dealer” means any person, not a manufacturer or importer, engaged in the business of selling, renting, leasing, or loaning firearms and shall include pawnbrokers who accept firearms as collateral for loans.
(l) Importer
The term “importer” means any person who is engaged in the business of importing or bringing firearms into the United States.
(m) Manufacturer
The term “manufacturer” means any person who is engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms.

[mcdaniel.mac]

Take it for what it's worth, here is the U. S. Code that defines a short barrel shot gun.



https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5845

26 U.S. Code § 5845 - Definitions

(a) Firearm
The term “firearm” means (1) a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (2) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (5) any other weapon, as defined in subsection (e); (6) a machinegun; (7) any silencer (as defined in section 921 of title 18, United States Code); and (8) a destructive device. The term “firearm” shall not include an antique firearm or any device (other than a machinegun or destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the Secretary finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector’s item and is not likely to be used as a weapon.
(b) Machinegun
The term “machinegun” means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.
(c) Rifle
The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge.
(d) Shotgun
The term “shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of projectiles (ball shot) or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed shotgun shell.
(e) Any other weapon
The term “any other weapon” means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.
(f) Destructive device
The term “destructive device” means (1) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas (A) bomb, (B) grenade, (C) rocket having a propellent charge of more than four ounces, (D) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, (E) mine, or (F) similar device; (2) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes; and (3) any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into a destructive device as defined in subparagraphs (1) and (2) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled. The term “destructive device” shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10 of the United States Code; or any other device which the Secretary finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, or is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes.
(g) Antique firearm
The term “antique firearm” means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
(h) Unserviceable firearm
The term “unserviceable firearm” means a firearm which is incapable of discharging a shot by means of an explosive and incapable of being readily restored to a firing condition.
(i) Make
The term “make”, and the various derivatives of such word, shall include manufacturing (other than by one qualified to engage in such business under this chapter), putting together, altering, any combination of these, or otherwise producing a firearm.
(j) Transfer
The term “transfer” and the various derivatives of such word, shall include selling, assigning, pledging, leasing, loaning, giving away, or otherwise disposing of.
(k) Dealer
The term “dealer” means any person, not a manufacturer or importer, engaged in the business of selling, renting, leasing, or loaning firearms and shall include pawnbrokers who accept firearms as collateral for loans.
(l) Importer
The term “importer” means any person who is engaged in the business of importing or bringing firearms into the United States.
(m) Manufacturer
The term “manufacturer” means any person who is engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms.

Note that these weapons are not made from a shotgun and never had a stock, and are over 26" long. As they were never intended to be fire from the shoulder, they cannot be a shotgun in the configuration sold.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

I really don't want one but I really think it points to how stupid the laws are I think everything under 26 inches should be a handgun and everything over a long gun who cares if it is rifled or smooth bore just simplify.


but like a Thompson contender if you first remove the short barrel from your gun then the grip then add the stock , then attach the 18 inch barrel it can become a shotgun then go back to being a pistol

it can all get very confusing and there are legal ways to do these things like this gun but how is LE to know at a glance if it is or isn't it would take verifying how it was purchased or running the serial number. of course since there is a legal way merely seeing one would not be probable cause for a stop.

with hings like an AR pistol if you purchase as a other technically you need to make it a pistol then a rifle if you want to be able to go back and forth but how would anyone ever know you if you screwed the pistol buffer tube on first or second.

[dragon813gt]

You don't need a pistol buffer. Put the buttstock on last. Before that it's not meant to be shouldered. It's going to be their word against yours regardless of how it's done.

[Texas by God]

Repeal the NFA. There I fixed it. Bartenders rejoice. Your gun has arrived. And if you keep it in your car keep the paperwork handy for the inevitable conversation with the police if stopped for a taillight out. No thanks for me. My 18" 870 regular stock is more effective. Best, Thomas.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

You don't need a pistol buffer. Put the buttstock on last. Before that it's not meant to be shouldered. It's going to be their word against yours regardless of how it's done.

I wanted to be absolutely sure I could say I followed the law exactly so I built it with a KAK tube and brace.


I could see this being very handy for fishing , well Alaskan fishing a lot of guides carried a shotgun when guiding fishing near bears , this just makes it easier to carry. not that the 18 inch barrel and shorter pistol grip made it much different to carry.

this would have the added benefit if it is considered a handgun of being able to be loaded in the vehicle , In WIS we can not carry loaded long guns in vehicles but we can loaded handguns and with no license so long as you stay away form schools.

[NoAngel]

Seems pretty useless to me. Accuracy would suck without the third lock-up point on your body, making it an excessively recoiling, clumsy overly long handgun.

I'm glad people who want one can have it. Constitutionally I'm all for them. Don't look for me to ever own or fire one.

[Plate plinker]

I not sure that is for me but a SBS would be nice. I like coach guns ya know SBS.

[Blackwater]

Does it come with screw in chokes???

[Texas by God]

It would be even sillier with screw in chokes. Years ago I fired a box of shells through a 12 ga. Mossberg Persuader. I did not like it. Look for it to be a TV&movie star.

[dualsport]

Stainless steel and you have the Alaskan boonie gun of all time. What's not to like? It's a niche filler. Good for Mossberg! I like their style more and more.

[Tackleberry41]

There's a demand or Mossberg wouldn't have made it. And its doubtful they made the gun, just hoping it would be legal. That they asked and have a letter saying it's legal. Yes they can always change their mind, but a judge would look at both letters and say make up you mind FIRST, then press charges.

[Smoke4320]

There's a demand or Mossberg wouldn't have made it. And its doubtful they made the gun, just hoping it would be legal. That they asked and have a letter saying it's legal. Yes they can always change their mind, but a judge would look at both letters and say make up you mind FIRST, then press charges.

well it did not go so well for the Akins accelerator.. He had 2 approval letters a year apart .. Started producing and selling his stocks then it was ruled a NFA item .. Bankrupt real quick

[dragon813gt]

There's a demand or Mossberg wouldn't have made it. And its doubtful they made the gun, just hoping it would be legal. That they asked and have a letter saying it's legal. Yes they can always change their mind, but a judge would look at both letters and say make up you mind FIRST, then press charges.

Completely wrong. Let's say you make a product that the has approved. ATF changes it's mind and your company has to pay a lawyer to bring your case to court. In the mean time your business may have no income because you can't sell your product. The ATF has all the power in this situation. I've shied away from slide/bump fire stocks because of this. All it takes is for them to change their mind and you're a felon if you possess one.

[M-Tecs]

In the past when the BATF changed it position they prosecuted zero individuals that purchased the items like welded M-14s receivers and the 410 Contender. In the case of the M-14 the owners did have to turn them in since their was no legal licensing under Firearms Owners Protection Act of 1986.

[FISH4BUGS]

In the past when the BATF changed it position they prosecuted zero individuals that purchased the items like welded M-14s receivers and the 410 Contender. In the case of the M-14 the owners did have to turn them in since their was no legal licensing under Firearms Owners Protection Act of 1986.
....and those owners were compensated how much for their receivers?

[gray wolf]

When you absolutely positively have to destroy everything in the room.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

I guess the real question would be is it worth the added cost currently selling for $389 on buds guns when you can have 2 extra rounds but about 4 inches longer in a persuader with a 20 inch barrel for a hundred less new.

or 1 more round in an 18 inch barrel at about the same length with the more vertical pistol grip

or use Mossbergs sell for about 150 to 200 around here all the time cut it down add a 25 dollar pistol grip and be done potentially for under 200 dollars with a 28 inch gun

it depends how worth it it is to

[Elkins45]

I guess the real question would be is it worth the added cost currently selling for $389 on buds guns when you can have 2 extra rounds but about 4 inches longer in a persuader with a 20 inch barrel for a hundred less new.

or 1 more round in an 18 inch barrel at about the same length with the more vertical pistol grip

or use Mossbergs sell for about 150 to 200 around here all the time cut it down add a 25 dollar pistol grip and be done potentially for under 200 dollars with a 28 inch gun

it depends how worth it it is to

You make a very compelling point.

I filed a Form 1 to SBS a Remington 870 express that I bought for $175. I already own the hacksaw, so total cost will be $375 for a 12.5" that I know is legal.

One real potential upside of the Mossberg is that since it isn't a NFA item you don't have to ask permission to take it across state lines.

[RU shooter]

OK say its legal with the feds But what about your states law interpretation on it ? I know there was a thread about is shotgun pistol thing on Pa firearms owners site and there are some conflicting wording of the Law at the state level . So you may want to check your state statutes before toting one of these around . Personally I cant really understand why one would take a chance when its only marginally shorter than a regular 500 with 18" barrel with regular legal pistol grip is that 3-4 " reduction really gonna make it that much better in any way . Even if completely legal Id personally never buy one or put a PG on any shotgun .

[Hickory]

I emailed Mossberg the other day and got this response.

Hi Dennis,




Thank you for your email. Although the Mossberg 590 Shockwave is classified as a “pistol grip firearm”: under the Gun Control Act of 1968, and is not subject to the provisions of the National Firearms Act, state and local laws may be more restrictive. Even though, it is legal federally, the 590 Shockwave may be considered a “short-barreled” shotgun or “assault weapon” by certain state and local laws; and therefore illegal to possess. Please check with your local authorities concerning the legality of possessing a firearm of this configuration. Thank you.



Sincerely,



Customer Service Team

O.F. Mossberg & Sons, Inc.


https://s3.amazonaws.com/cdn.freshdesk.com/data/helpdesk/attachments/production/19001826529/original/KkYMRpCWxcTd6u_uPWJcaVn5SLmFolOoNw.jpg?1479331811

[paul h]

Stainless steel and you have the Alaskan boonie gun of all time. What's not to like? It's a niche filler. Good for Mossberg! I like their style more and more.

Having done various tests with a conventional 12 ga I've determined they are a poor choice for defense against bears, and reducing the terminal performance of a 12 ga by shortening the barrel and making it harder to aim would make a marginal choice less effective.

So, that's what's not to like.

[jmort]

The 12 Guage will smoke anything on earth, including any and every bear. Someone may choose some other firearm, but not because the 12 Guage is insufficient for smoking anything and everything on earth.

[azrednek]

The ATF is known to reverse course. And it does it quite often.

I'm aware of two such reversals by ATF going back in the 70's. One was a replica black powder cane gun. I'm told but never saw it in black and white. The importer of the cane gun was also working on approval of a black powder replica umbrella. The other was a spring loaded mechanism wound with a roller skate type key for AR-15 triggers.

Friend sent away for the replica cane gun advertised in Shotgun News and several weeks later got his money order returned. I believe but might be wrong the importer was a business named Morris Lanning.

I believe but could also be wrong, ATF did a reversal on tear gas pens and guns.

[texasnative46]

To All,

I was once issued a WITNESS PROTECTION GUN (by Remington) & it was AWESOME to shoot & "saved my tender hide" more than once, when I was working warrants for the department.

99% of criminals have a general idea of what a "sawed-off" shotgun will do & generally CHOOSE to "go quietly" to jail, as they prefer that to a trip to the morgue.

yours, tex

[dragon813gt]

I'm aware of two such reversals by ATF going back in the 70's.....

One of the most recent is the Sig arm brace. There have been more but I'm not going to list them.

[DCP]

One of the most recent is the Sig arm brace. There have been more but I'm not going to list them.

You can still have a Sig arm brace you just cant put in on your shoulder. So dont, just wear a shirt or a coat or a ........

[dragon813gt]

You can still have a Sig arm brace you just cant put in on your shoulder. So dont, just wear a shirt or a coat or a ........

Doesn't change the fact that there were approval letters from the ATF. Then they changed their mind. I'm not saying they do this all the time. But they do it often enough to make it confusing.

The fact that the laws are not black and white is a problem. There should be no gray areas. Bureaucrats should not be the ones making the laws. If the laws are so complex, or vague, so there are "loopholes" I question wether we need those laws or not. IMO we don't need them.

[mcdaniel.mac]

Doesn't change the fact that there were approval letters from the ATF. Then they changed their mind. I'm not saying they do this all the time. But they do it often enough to make it confusing.

The fact that the laws are not black and white is a problem. There should be no gray areas. Bureaucrats should not be the ones making the laws. If the laws are so complex, or vague, so there are "loopholes" I question wether we need those laws or not. IMO we don't need them.
They didn't change their mind much. Bracing a pistol against your shoulder does not make it a rifle. On the other hand, adding a part for the purpose of bracing it against your shoulder means you're now intending for that weapon to be fired from the shoulder, which for a semiautomatic pistol means you have created an SBR.

It's the sort of legal distinction that, we're firearm regulations not the place where politicians go to die, would be quickly cleared up, but must exist by necessity.

[dragon813gt]

Yes, they did change their mind. They originally said misuse would not change the classification of the weapon. Then they changed their mind and misuse now changes the classification of the weapon. That's a complete reversal. Here is a good synopsis of what happened: http://www.grandviewoutdoors.com/grand-view-outdoors/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-sb-15-sig-brace/

You can find the letters from the ATF about this as well. They clearly state misuse was did not change the weapon classification. Then one day, it did. I won't deny that this particular product seemed like an end run around the NFA.

That whole saga is the grey area I'm talking about. There should Benin grey areas. I also think there should be no NFA, GCA, Hughes Amendment and many other gun laws.

[Hickory]

IMO we don't need them.

I am a believer in personal freedom, I think this sort of firearm should be available to anyone who is legally able to buy a handgun.
Personally, I have no use for one, at the moment. However, if at some point in my life and the situation is such that I need one, I would like to have the freedom and ability to buy one as easily as any other firearm.
I do not own a semi automatic center fire rifle (AR) nor do I want one, at the moment, but if I ever needed one, I want the freedom to buy one.
It's about freedom, not need.
When you start thinking (need) you're thinking like a liberal democrat. They're quick to tell you what guns you need and should have.

[dragon813gt]

When you start thinking (need) you're thinking like a liberal democrat. They're quick to tell you what guns you need and should have.

You do realize I was talking about gun laws and not needing them, right? I made no mention of needing a reason to own this Mossberg. It's not my style but if someone wants one then go get it.

[rosewood]

I was understanding that this gun fell under the AOW category and did require a $5 tax stamp. It is legal since it was manufactured that way. If you were to modify a regular gun yourself, it would then be considered manufacturing and you would have to do the Tax stamp for making it or something like that.

Rosewood

[mcdaniel.mac]

I was understanding that this gun fell under the AOW category and did require a $5 tax stamp. It is legal since it was manufactured that way. If you were to modify a regular gun yourself, it would then be considered manufacturing and you would have to do the Tax stamp for making it or something like that.

Rosewood
Nope, it's just a "firearm" and no tax stamp is required. If the overall length was shorter or it had a stock, it would be an NFA firearm.

[Lloyd Smale]

id have to ask what the heck its good for. Even in a home defense shotgun id rather have an 18 inch stocked gun. To me it falls into the same category as those lever action mares legg pistols. About useless. More of a horses %%% then a mares leg

[dragon813gt]

id have to ask what the heck its good for. Even in a home defense shotgun id rather have an 18 inch stocked gun. To me it falls into the same category as those lever action pistols. About useless.

Range toy IMO. But there's nothing wrong w/ having some of them :D

[Hickory]

You do realize I was talking about gun laws and not needing them, right? I made no mention of needing a reason to own this Mossberg. It's not my style but if someone wants one then go get it.

I am guilty of not reading your full statement, yes you were talking about the law and not the gun. I apologize for my assumption.
However, I feel that my statement applies to those who feel a firearm such as this has no practical use. In the right circumstance this gun can be just the right tool for the job.

[Lloyd Smale]

ya I guess whatever turns you on. Because I don't like it doesn't mean others wont.
Range toy IMO. But there's nothing wrong w/ having some of them :D

[Lloyd Smale]

maybe trump will get rid of those silly short barreled laws and let up buy a practical short barreled gun without a stamp or hassle.

[rosewood]

Would make a great gun to keep in the car. Can you imagine how well that would work on a car jacker?

[dragon813gt]

Would make a great gun to keep in the car. Can you imagine how well that would work on a car jacker?

Can you imagine trying to swing that while sitting in the driver's seat?

[dualsport]

Having done various tests with a conventional 12 ga I've determined they are a poor choice for defense against bears, and reducing the terminal performance of a 12 ga by shortening the barrel and making it harder to aim would make a marginal choice less effective.

So, that's what's not to like.
Well, that's it then. Thanks for the head's up. But, I do think this new toy from Mossberg is less an 'aiming' thing and more a real close range blaster. I wonder if a Brenneke slug point blank will affect a big bear?

[Artful]

....and those owners were compensated how much for their receivers?

HA Ha ha - What?

[Elkins45]

maybe trump will get rid of those silly short barreled laws and let up buy a practical short barreled gun without a stamp or hassle.

Trump can't get rid of laws alone. You're gonna need Congress to pass a bill for that. I called my Representative and he's on board. My Senator is Rand Paul, so I figured I didn't need to call him.

[MaryB]

Friend of mine ran a huge trap line and used a lever action "mares leg"(version he had was a trapper special, same length though) to put down fox and coyotes caught in the traps, and one badger. Sure a 22lr would have usually worked but the last badger I shot close with a 22 just made it madder...


id have to ask what the heck its good for. Even in a home defense shotgun id rather have an 18 inch stocked gun. To me it falls into the same category as those lever action mares legg pistols. About useless. More of a horses %%% then a mares leg

[Artful]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYjThckYqBQ

[texasnative46]

To All,

ONE of my current plans for a "project" is "sawing off" a 20-Gauge Mag or 12-Gauge DOUBLE-BARREL into a "sort of a clone" of the old-school AUTO-BURGLAR GUN with 10-inch barrels.
(This of course means that I have to go through the "hassle" of dealing with the bureaucrats of BATFE & paying the NEEDLESS/WORTHLESS 200.oo tax.)

Once that's done, I may well look into becoming a manufacturer of the "shot pistol" & trying to get BATFE to declare it a normal handgun, as Mossberg has accomplished with their Model 590 SHOCKWAVE with 14" tube.
(I may be 100% WRONG but I think that such a "regular handgun" would be EASY to sell "a whole bunch of" in 20-gauge magnum.)

Note: I've been "thinking on this" for over 2 decades & was "ready to go" to be a manufacturer of AOW weapons in 1991, until the USA sent me OCONUS once again.
(When the word "got out" at that time, I had a "potential customer", a State Department of Corrections, that wanted to buy 50 or more AOW for their institutions.)

yours, tex

[FISH4BUGS]

I won't deny that this particular product seemed like an end run around the NFA.
....and that is what really pisses me off. Some of us actually follow the law, paid the $200 tax stamp for a SBS, waited our six-eight months for approval and called it a day.
Arm brace? Are you Shi**ing me? If you believe that I have a bridge to sell you.

[DCP]

....and that is what really pisses me off. Some of us actually follow the law, paid the $200 tax stamp for a SBS, waited our six-eight months for approval and called it a day.
Arm brace? Are you Shi**ing me? If you believe that I have a bridge to sell you.

Sorry your so upset.
You see some states dont allow SBS so I am HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY. [smilie=w:
I can even bring MY Sig Brace to other states without jumping through hoops.