New Peep on my 'Hotrod' Hawken

[54bore]

I decided to try a new Peep on my 'Hotrod' Hawken, its a Williams FP Hawken TK (Target Knobs) with Gib Lock, I really like this thing!! Nothing against my Lyman 57SMLs (i own 4 of them) But I like the looks, fit, and feel of this Williams FP Hawken better than my Lyman 57s, I just put it together today so i havnt shot it yet. This thing is ROCK SOLID with the Gib Lock i added, the Gib locks the elevator down when you have it set where you want it. The Gib lock is not actually designed for this sight, it is a bit to long and needs to be cut down to fit correctly (super simple to do) here are some pics of it.

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[54bore]

This is what the plain sight looks like, you can see on the side how its just a small flat head screw that locks the elevator down, this is what i replaced with the Knurled Gib lock screw, and i added the Target Knobs. This sight was a direct fit, no shims, filing, grinding, etc. it also runs true to the barrel without any shimming (at least for me it did) It says for Pre 91 Hawken and Renegades. I have no idea what year mine is? I would bet mine is a Post 91, but again i dont know for sure?
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[idahoron]

Like I was saying they both have ups and downs. I have used the FP sight for 4 years now. Only two with the Gib Lock. The williams FP is a good sight.
On the lyman the push button that unlocks the elevation is pretty awesome for setting the sight quick. Another thing I like about the lyman is the elevation plate. It is removable or just movable.

The FP is solid and I don't worry about it as much as the lyman. My son got lazy about not locking the Gib Lock and his groups went to ****. I was going over the rifle and noticed it was loose. I tightened it down and the rifle went back to shooting where it was supposed to.

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/Muzzleloaders/Knight%20MK85/Sight%20knob%202_zpswwavctfq.jpg

[54bore]

That is one thing i wish this FP Hawken had, the adjustable/removable elevation plate like on the Lymans, once you zero at whatever starting yardage you want you can adjust the little plate to the top mark, etc. but other than that I cant find anything i dont like about this sight, its a darn nice sight!!

[tomme boy]

How well do these return to zero after removing the barrel for cleaning?

Did you bed the tang and barrel so it returns to zero every time? The lock up on a couple of my TC are not that great. I bedded the tangs as I did not want the stocks to split. But not the barrels.

[Omnivore]

I have the Lyman 57 on a Lyman/Investarm Deerstalker rifle and I like it. It seems to hold zero just fine after years of removing the barrel. So long as your barrel installs reasonably tight and repeatable you're not going to have any issue there. I've tightened the fit of the barrel key, but otherwise the barrel is not bedded and its fit to the stock is as shipped from the factory. Haven't bedded the tang either. I use a 100 yard zero, don't shoot much beyond that, and haven't adjusted the sight since first zeroing it years ago. 54Bore and IdahoRon shoot to much greater distances and might have more to say on that subject. Bedding is a fairly simple process in any case, if it should come to that.

[54bore]

Idahoron is the authority on this setup, I have not bedded anything on any of my guns, haven't had a reason to do so as of yet anyway, i will be HAMMERING targets HARD coming up this spring, gonna work on 500 yards for fun, its hard to get much farther than that around here. Shooting these long distances will definitely tell on things in a hurry! I dont recall Ron having anything bedded either? It definitely wouldn't hurt anything to do so, but im not sure it's necessary? These old TC Renegades and Hawkens would be REALLY easy to bed.

[bubba.50]

looks good. did you find that sight in stock somewhere or order it direct from Williams?

[54bore]

looks good. did you find that sight in stock somewhere or order it direct from Williams?

I ordered it directly from Williams, but Brownells had them in stock 62.95, they also had the Target knobs, and Gib lock screw, it would have been cheaper for me to go the Brownell route, but i went ahead and spent the extra to get it already setup. I think you can get one of these and piece it together exactly like mine through Brownells and be cheaper than a Lyman 57, and in my humble opinion this is hands down a better sight!! I wish i had these instead of my Lymans

[54bore]

The few features of the Lyman that are, or can be nice, is the movable elevation plate, and the ability to push a button to make larger adjustments, BUT personally i find the button on the Lymans to be EXTREMELY stiff to push and hold while you try and move it, i would place a bet that there's a LOT of folks that couldnt even do it, the button is that stiff!! Before i get I'm a weak sissy (I work in the woods as a timber faller/logger, im fairly durable) I have played with this Williams a bunch here in the house, i can turn the Target knob damn fast! It only takes a few seconds to make a LARGE move. This Williams is ROCK SOLID when elevated, no play in the bidge at all when elevated and Gib locked, My Lymans have flex/play in them when elevated, not anything huge, but its there. I think the Lyman 57s are great sights, but in my opinion the Williams is a little greater! I just bought another brand new Lyman 57GPR today for my new .54 Cal Lyman GPH rifle, so im definately not a Lyman hater! The reason i went with the 57GPR is that it was SPECIFICALLY designed for this new rifle i just bought, i would rather of had another Williams FP Hawken, but why chance fit when the Lyman 57GPR was made for this gun.

[idahoron]

How well do these return to zero after removing the barrel for cleaning?

Did you bed the tang and barrel so it returns to zero every time? The lock up on a couple of my TC are not that great. I bedded the tangs as I did not want the stocks to split. But not the barrels.

My Lyman 57 sights have been sighted in for years on my rifles. The barrels have been in and out so many times I can't even guess. My rifles will shoot accurately out to 300 yards.
I do have one rifle that is glass bedded on the barrel. It is my .458 and it was a little sloppy. I bedded it and bent the wedge pin to get it tight.

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/Muzzleloaders/Stock%201_zps3w5bsmji.jpg

[tomme boy]

I had to bed the tangs on mine. TC replaced 2 stocks for me before I figured out to bed the tang. Both were New Englanders with the bolt that goes from the tang down to the trigger group. Maybe the stocks were just weak??? But I know this is common with the early New Englanders. The second one came back with hot glue under each screw of the tang. I took that out and epoxy bedded it and about 2" of the barrel. I have shot that one A LOT and it has not cracked again.

Now watch I will probably go check and the thing cracked. I have bad luck that way.

[54bore]

I had to bed the tangs on mine. TC replaced 2 stocks for me before I figured out to bed the tang. Both were New Englanders with the bolt that goes from the tang down to the trigger group. Maybe the stocks were just weak??? But I know this is common with the early New Englanders. The second one came back with hot glue under each screw of the tang. I took that out and epoxy bedded it and about 2" of the barrel. I have shot that one A LOT and it has not cracked again.

Now watch I will probably go check and the thing cracked. I have bad luck that way.

Over tightening the side lock screw is a good way to break a TC stock, some get away with it, some don't. Mine are just snug enough i dont worry of them backing out, but DEFINITELY not tight

[charlie b]

Have you guys had to replace the spring on the Lyman 57? Mine adjusts up and down but if I move the screw for a higher elevation the slide does not follow it.

The sight came with my GPH (used) so it may have been abused in previous life. I may just get the Williams anyway.

[idahoron]

I think there is a clip on the bottom of that screw. If it is gone it won't lift.

[54bore]

I haven't had this happen with my 57s? They make Target Knobs for the 57SML/GPR i think im gonna try one for the Elevation only

[charlie b]

Have you guys had to replace the spring on the Lyman 57? Mine adjusts up and down but if I move the screw for a higher elevation the slide does not follow it.

The sight came with my GPH (used) so it may have been abused in previous life. I may just get the Williams anyway.

Yep, mine was missing that piece. Will get a circlip and shim it, see if that works. Will also order a target knob for it.

[54bore]

Yep, mine was missing that piece. Will get a circlip and shim it, see if that works. Will also order a target knob for it.

You want to be careful when you go to remove and instal the Target Knob on the 57, i have not done it yet, but i read about somewhere? Might of been Idahoron on another forum? Anyway, seems like theres an important step or 2 so you don't damage/loose a spring? Hopefully Ron will show up on here and explain, you might find it by google searching 'Installing Target Knob on Lyman 57' something like that should find it? I plan to do this same thing to one of my 57s but i only want the Elevation Knob, i dont want one for windage, its easy enuf as is, i would actually like to be able to lock the windage down once zeroed. The elevation knob looks like something i will like. As I've said before, i find the push button quick elevator adjustment on the Lyman 57s to be EXTREMELY stiff to push and precisely adjust while trying to hold the button down, i dont like that at all, while it might be a bit slower i would stil rather use a target knob and dial it up/down

[idahoron]

There is a square half moon type clip on the screw. It goes in this groove.

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/Muzzleloaders/Elevater%20clip%20notch_zps4vsgvonh.jpg

This is both windage and elevation knobs.

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/Muzzleloaders/Target%20sights%201_zpswkpcfm8h.jpg


The clip is a spring. It has a bend in it and when you take it out it is easy to take some of the shape out of the clip. It leaves you with a elevator sight that is kind of sloppy afterwards.

[idahoron]

If the clip is missing or installed wrong with elevator screw will not raise the sight.
I never cared for the elevator screw because it interfered with my vision shooting. I shoot both eyes open most of the time and my left eye was seeing the screw.

[idahoron]

i find the push button quick elevator adjustment on the Lyman 57s to be EXTREMELY stiff to push and precisely adjust while trying to hold the button down, i dont like that at all, while it might be a bit slower i would stil rather use a target knob and dial it up/down

I cradle the rifle in my left arm. I use my middle finger and I hook the hammer

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/Muzzleloaders/Pushing%201_zpsmfpodtjm.jpg

then I use my thumb to push the button.

]http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/Muzzleloaders/Pushing%202_zpspt7x2gs6.jpg


For me it is quicker and easier than the elevator screw plus I don't have it in my line of sight.

[54bore]

That is interesting Ron, i have no rime or reason method, the way i do it is just simply try and push the button from whatever angle i might be at the time, to me that button is STIFF, REALLY STIFF! But the way you show here in these pics makes sense, it would allow leverage that in my opinion could definitely be a big bonus when trying to push and hold this button to make adjustments. I will have to try this!

[54bore]

I am one that shoots with my left eye closed, or Squinted heavily. I use to shoot Competition Trap (How i met Jax) i was at a disadvantage when a bird broke hard left, i had to chase it down, pass the target and shoot. Many of the old timers tried n tried to get me to shoot with both eyes open, i tried and didnt like it! I did fairly well with one eye tho, my best was 98 out of 100 birds, i have a vest patch for running 75 straight, never did break the 100 straight, but i did MANY MANY 25 straights.

[charlie b]

Thanks. Yes that clip on mine is missing.

[54bore]

I grabbed my New Englander earlier and tried the push button adjustment the way Ron shows in his pics coupled with one of his YouTube video's 'shooting 160 yard gong', to say it makes a big difference is an understatement! It's fairly easy to push the quick adjust elevator button and make a sight move doing it the way Ron does, in his YouTube video you can see his method well. I hated that button up until now! It actually hurt, and left a dimple in my thumb, i had pretty much given up on messing with it.

[charlie b]

FWIW, two standard 1/8" circlips ('E' clips) fit almost perfectly. Sight back to normal.

[54bore]

Ron, i take it that rifle in the pics above is sighted in and that is your 100 yard zero? That looks just like where my First Hotrod Renegade 100 yard Zero was (Peep Bridge Height) This is why i didn't like my 17AML Globe, i got rid of it and went to the AHB, i didnt like having my Peep bridge that high for 100 yards, The elevation loss wasn't a huge deal but it did kinda bother me (The Lyman 57 has a LOT of height adjustment) but the higher my 57s are The bridge starts to feel flimsy to me. That is when i dug up the 17AHB Globe, The AHB is Lyman's Lowest 17Globe at .404, while the AML is .494, With the AHB i am able to get my Peep bridge WAY down lower to the base, which i personally like WAY better! I have the AHB on all of my Rifles, i know you have a custom built wedge shape shim for your 45 Hotrod Hawken which would raise the 57 and counter what i just spoke of. All i do is shim the forward/rear tilt out of mine with little stainless washers (2 or 3 under the front and 1 under the rear) and get the 57 Running true level with my barrel (as close as i can anyway) and thats all i do to mine.

[idahoron]

The -0 on that sight is actually 50 yards. The white lines go up 50 yards after that. That rifle is my Renegade hunter with the single trigger. It is sighted in out to 250 yards.
The Bridge height or Gap between the slider and the base is .300" on that sight at 100 yards. The gap is .240" at 50 yards.
My Hawken has a gap of .218 at 100 yards due to the spacer. The difference between the Renegade no spacer and the Hawken with the spacer is .022 What is the bridge gap between yours at 100 yards?

My sights at 250 to 300 yards are really not that "woogity" have you ever used a vernier tang sight? They lay all the way down and at the shot move forward quite a bit.
There is less play on the 57's on the lower settings. At 50 and 100 yards they don't have much play at all. That play is repeatable. Every time it goes to that spot it is spot on. The sight set at 2300 yards does have a little play to it. The thing to remember is your not carrying the rifle with the sight set at the 300 yard setting. For the most part I carry at the 100 yard setting, or I take it off all together, and only install it when I need to, like when I am riding an ATV or in a truck.
I am curious about your face pressure contact with the stock with that low of a front sight lets say at 50 yards?

[54bore]

My bridge height/Gap between my slider and base is .105, i dont have any issues with face pressure on my stock? It feels natural when the stock hits my shoulder, i dont have to look it's right there for me.
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[54bore]

A ranged 80 Yards was the last time i shot this rifle, bullets are the Lee 500 S&W 440, my bullets weigh right at 460 Grains, my powder charge is 95 weight grains of Swiss 2F (90 volume) Velocity was 1420 fps over my Chrono. Here is my 5 shot group at 80 yards, 3 in a little clover leaf, and the other 2 close by
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[54bore]

The 57SML on the little New Englander that you drilled the Tang for is almost bottomed out at 50 Yards, i bet I couldn't get more than a piece of paper between the sight base and slider, to me its perfect! But in the thread that i started on setting up a New Englander with the Lyman 57 Tang Peep and Lyman 17 Globe front sight, i advised going with the AML instead of the AHB. But on the Hawkens and Renegades i swear by the lower AHB

[idahoron]

Man that is low. If it works for you that is all that matters.