Cross roads with 9mm (leading)

[Razorbak]

Looking for some opinions. New to casting and reloading. Have a Sig P320 with heavy leading. Do I go with a new mold or go the PC route?

Setup is 50/50 WW, Lee 356-124-RN (drop at .357, 129gr), Loadmaster - 1. Universal Deprimer 2. full length size 3. powder through expander 4. bullet seating die 5. 9mm FCD.

Slugged the barrel right at 355. The mold is dropping at 357. OAL was set at 1.125 for both sets.

Ran 2 test sets in the following.

Test 1 - Air dropped, cast sat for about a month before loading. Coated with straight JPW. Loaded on top of 700x w/ 3.0gr, 3.2gr and 3.4gr - 20 rounds each - Shoot 10, got leading, cleaned barrel, Shoot 10 more, got leading. Did this for all 3 sets of loads.

Did some reading and went through my process and found the expander wasn't enough, I was crushing the boolit causing them to be under sized 352-354.

Opened up the case some more. Maybe to much as the boolit will slide down the case if I'm not paying attention. Made some dummy rounds and pulled the boolit. No longer crushing them. Went in at 357 and came out the same.

Test 2 - Water dropped, coated with X-lox from lsstuff 45/45/10. Same loads as before. 700x at 3.0, 3.2, 3.4, 20 rounds each. Ended up with the same results.

So now I'm think I need a bigger boolit - NOE 358-135-FN - tumble lube with xlox $100 or PC, same boolit, toaster over and powder - $50

Recommendations to try or options before I commit to a new mold or PC? Thanks for all the help

[44man]

Harder lead first, water drop. The nine is a high pressure gun and 50/50 will not buy it.
Next use REAL lube. Harden and go back to the original expander. Chances are your boolit is skidding rifling a long way. Use straight CO WW metal.
Mix a batch of Felix lube.
Have you slugged the bore? .357" should work.

[Thumbcocker]

Lee 125 rnfp sized .358 or larger for starters.

[NoAngel]

Your factory crimp die may be undersizing them also. There's a lot of mixed opinions about them here. I use one myself but did a little work to make things jive.

First, are you separating your brass by headstamps? Brass thicknesses vary and with a cast bullet, the thinner cases are going to be your friend.
I only use Win or •FC• (only the ones with a dot on each end) as they have treated the best thus far.

I also used some diamond lapping compound and took .0015 out of the carbide ring on the FCD. That took a long time to lap that out but it was worth it. With ACWW's that have been powder coated, a pulled bullet (post FCD) is less than a half thousandth smaller than when I started.


I finally found a few loads that worked 100% with bare cast but after I started powder coating......I'll never go back. NEVER. I only have about 1500 more bare cast loads left to shoot through and I will never load 9mm with traditional cast loads again.

Take the plunge, get a toaster oven at the Goodwill, GET A THERMOMETER, a couple trays, some parchment paper, wash out a butter tub and lid, air soft bb's and order your favorite color from SMOKE4320 here on CB. Accept the learning curve and don't get your hopes up for the perfect finish on your first try. Read up in the coatings forum.
You will not regret powder coating them.
I was just at the range this past sunday and put a little over 200 pc loads through a factory poly barrel glock. It was as clean when I left as it was when I got there. The bore anyway. LOL!

[bouncer50]

My opinion the bore could be rough to cause leading. 357 size bullet in a 355 bore should be good if the bullet is hard enough. I use all WW and some tin never had a problem with leading in the six different 9mm i have. When you get over 1000 fps you need a harder bullet or a gas check design bullet. Colt Python have a 355 bore and most shoot 357 bore bullets in it. The Python is one of the most accurate handguns.?

[NoAngel]

Possibly. I would be skeptical that a SIG has a rough bore, but wouldn't say it doesn't since I ain't seen it. If it is rough, then it would certainly be a contributing factor.

Another reason to PC. One of my Mosins is rough as a cob and doesn't foul from powder coated loads.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Have you tried beagling your current mold for a larger boolit? If you go the PC route, check thrift stores for a cheap toaster oven.

I too am on the 9mm quest. I've got a batch of straight COWW water dropped boolits aging as we speak. If that doesn't work I am going to beagle and if that doesn't work I might give PC a try. I really want to stick with a fast an easy lube or coating method as my 9mm loads are purely for plinking and I don't want to invest more time in them than needed, so for now, no lubrizising 9mm for me.

I did make an interesting observation this past weekend, though. I had a trip to the range planned with a friend that only shoots 9mm so I wanted to shoot the same to make all friendly competition on equal ground. So I loaded up 100 of the air cooled boolits that had leaded my barrel (Sig 2022) in earlier testing and went to the range. I had not cleaned my barrel since the last 30 test rounds and there was some lead still present. 100 rounds later, the leading had not significantly changed. The lands and grooves were still very distinguishable (yours may not be) , but the grooves were certainly leaded. While certainly not ideal, the load (Lee 120 TC, ACCOWW, 45/45/10 lube, 3 grains promo, 38 S&W expander) does represent one that will maintain a consistent bore condition and usuable accuracy for at least 100 rounds. Not what you would want for competition, but certainly good enough for plinking until I get everything ironed out.

[Tackleberry41]

The FCD really is for jacketed bullets. I can load jacketed using the FCD, and it really only crimps. You can feel it swaging with the larger cast bullets. I had issues with the standard expander that comes w dies, again designed for jacketed. Switched over to the longer NOE set up, made a world of difference.

[NoAngel]

I had to make new expander for my Lee not long ago. Mine actually expanded about right when I first bought them but they have had close to 30K through them and Lee......god love 'em....they will cut a corner if they can. The expander buttons are made from what looks like 1018 cold rolled. Decent enough for menial tasks but wear resistance ...not so much. You wouldn't think brass would wear steel but I also have a bad habit of processing 'semi-clean' brass and the dirty case mouths may have had something to do with it. Dunno.
Made a new one from a piece of Viscount 44 I had. It's a pre-heattreat H-13. It should be good for the rest of my life.

[Razorbak]

Thanks for the input. All my brass is mixed. I'll see if I can get a good pic of the barrel, If I had to guess I've put 1500 or so factory loads through it, if it matters. Accuracy is great with factory loads.

The last set of test rounds I had pulled the FCD and was using the seating die just enough to take the bell out.

@silvercreek - Thats my goal - plinking. Think that might be my next test. Clean out the pot and cast some in straight COWW. Two batches, 1 air cooled and 1 water dropped. I wont be able to make it back to the range for a couple of weekends so that give some time for the AC ones to do their thing.

I've read about using NOE expander so I might need to pull the one on there now and do some measuring. I assumed that with the boolit sliding down the cast it was go to go. Haven't had any issues with chambering rounds.

[sharpshooter3040]

Your alloy is too hard and the load too light for the hard alloy.the bullet can't obturate so you get Tinning or gas cutting


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[sharpshooter3040]

I've been casting for over 35 years been reading a lot of posts about using harder allow. Folks harder isn't better. Hard lead is brittle and will vaporize to a degree and Tin the barrel. You get gas cutting at low velocities consequently contributing to leading. Bullet size, expander etc also aggravates the problem. Read up on some of Elmer kieths notes on alloys. You will save yourself some grief down the road


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[dragon813gt]

Your alloy is too hard and the load too light for the hard alloy.the bullet can't obturate so you get Tinning or gas cutting


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His alloy isn't to hard. No one is telling him he needs a 30bhn bullet. Water dropped COWW should suffice. The X-Lox should work no problem. I suspect the FCD is the culprit. I know the OP said he didn't use it for all the rounds. If this is the case then you may need a larger mold.

For current information on alloys read "From Ingot to Target".

[sharpshooter3040]

All I know is what works for me take my advise or not it really makes no difference to me. I have been down this road many times and I'll go for the tried and true. Wheel weights and 10% tin work great. Water quenching never really gained anything for me as you defeat that process when you size the bullet. Btw I have read from Ingot to target. A very good read and a good source of information. Read the parts in the chapter of alloys about hardness vs obturation water quenching etc. anyway a very good source of information not necessarily a re-invention of the wheel


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[dragon813gt]

10% tin%. That's a lot of expense for little gain. The gain stops around 3% so the rest is just money spent.

[sharpshooter3040]

Mostly because I use Linotype and it was just what I used at the time I have a very large supply of wheel weights and when I have a casting session I can mix a repeatable batch time after time. I'm using my dads and I recipe for the last 20 or so years and it's what works for me


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[Razorbak]

One of the frustrating parts of this whole process is not really being able to talk to someone or have them looking over your shoulder, mentoring along the way. So may things get lost when using write word to describe what is a very complicated hobby if you back down all the little bits of it.

I used the calculator from http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?105952-Lead-alloy-calculators and based on 50% SOWW and 50% COWW. I should be around 10bhn and from what I've read that should be good for 9mm in the 1k fps range. But you can find plenty of info that says it should be higher so........

Reread Setting up for Boolits in a new 9mm 3 times this afternoon. One of the things I missed until the very last time I read it was the use of a micrometer vs caliper. Lucky me work had one just laying around. Remeasured my slug and duh .356. This is the only reference I remeber seeing that says to use a mic vs caliper.

Not sure this is the end all for my problem but its a great start. I will still go back and review all my equipment and process and see if i've missed anything else.

[smokeater]

Razorbak,
You don't say if gun is new. I use almost same setup as you but in a GLOCK19 and have no leading at all. My alloy might be a mite harder, something around 10 to 12 bhn. The difference could be that my barrel has had approx 900 to 1000 rounds of plated bullets to break-in the barrel plus I finish my barrel cleaning with a lightly oiled patch of Ballistol every time. I was amazed at how clean the cast bullets shot. I clean after every session just as a precaution. I love cast and that is all my handguns get fed. My wife's handguns still sees mostly plated. Don't give up.

[fatelk]

I was going down a similar road a while back. I had some lighter loads that worked fine, but decided that I wanted to push them just a little harder. I wanted to load a 125gr bullet to approximately factory ballistics; just a little more velocity and I was getting leading. I thought I was doing everything right: correct sizing, good lube, sorted brass, etc..

I'm sure I could have eventually figured it out, but instead it was the impetus that got me started powder coating. I like it so much better that I'd never even consider going back. Leading is gone, not a trace. Accuracy is good, and I've found that it seems to be much more forgiving as far as size. I can size them a little smaller than lead with good results. I like that because I have barrels with different diameters. The oversize lead bullets that I needed in one gun would sometimes cause chambering problems in the other.

[Razorbak]

Razorbak, You don't say if gun is new. .

I have about 1500 plated rounds through it

[TCLouis]

If you are using Lee dies, let the taper crimp in the boolit seating die do it's job and be finished with crimping.
That die should take care of any issues.

If you are using other dies, then forget all I have written because I really don't know the answer.

It was just an educated guess if Lee dies were involved

[sharpshooter3040]

What works good in my 9 revolver is the lee 105gn swc sized 357 using a standard set of lee carbide dies 3.5gn wst mixed brass

Bullet alloy: 4 parts range scrap 1 part Linotype 50/50 nra lube. Same percentage for cowwhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170201/8a0dcce39d107cf22808fd5225de7f29.jpg


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[sharpshooter3040]

What works good in my 9 revolver is the lee 105gn swc sized 357 using a standard set of lee carbide dies 3.5gn wst mixed brass

Bullet alloy: 4 parts range scrap 1 part Linotype 50/50 nra lube. Same percentage for cowwhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170201/8a0dcce39d107cf22808fd5225de7f29.jpg


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That's correct taper crimp dies. Any of the other types of dies are in my opinion detrimental to accuracy.


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