Alternate .310 Cadet Brass Source. 7.62 Nagant!

[Craiger1987]

I recently picked up a second Martini cadet and this one has not had a 32-30 reamer run into it so it will not close on a 32-20 rim. Instead of shelling out $2 a piece for Burtram brass or converted brass I figured I would experiment with other brass first. I noticed that 7.62 Nagant has a rim that is all but identical to the original .310 Cadet round. So I fired some through my Nagant revolver took the brass home and trimmed it to the proper length for my gun (for my chamber it was 1.12 yours may be different) and then ran it into a 310 FL die. The brass sized easily and perfectly, I went with PPU 7.62 Nagant brass because it has an extractor groove and the other brands I've seen do not. The rim is very narrow on this brass so having the groove gives the collet and shell holder a bit more to bite on to. The brass is VERY thick compared to Starline 32-20 so I had to bell the case mouth, seat the bullet, and then take the bell out on a seperate step. If I tried to seat the bullet and remove the bell all in one step the bullet wouldn't seat fully as the bell closed too early and caused the bullet to bind. I loaded some up and shot 10, all loaded, fired, and extracted perfectly and there was no pressure signs using an RCBS 120 grain bullet over 4 grains of unique and a win SR primer. After firing the fire formed brass from my chamber has an ID at the mouth of .306 average. With the heel being .309 this means I won't have to FL size the brass after shooting, just stuff new components on and go. Idk if anyone else has ever tried it but I figured I'd share my findings for anyone interested. I'll post a couple of pics. One will be of the brass in process and a loaded round, the other will be the brass after being fired.

[Craiger1987]

186621186622

[GRUMPA]

Strange you brought this up, last week I had a person send me a few 100 of the 32-20 Starline brass to thin the rim for his 310 Cadet. I take it he didn't have any of the 7.62 Nagant brass laying around but the brass I did for him works perfectly.

Just nice to know of another alternative, Thanks for sharing....

[The Goose]

Great work! I love reading about this sort of thing.

[Craiger1987]

No problem :) it's very common for people to turn the rims on 32-20 to make them useful in standard cadet chambers. On the forums people typically say the only two options for brass is the Bertram or converted 32-20 brass. Empty Nagant brass can be difficult to find but if you've got a Nagant revolver a day at the range will turn ammo into usable brass :) hadn't seen anyone ever mention using Nagant brass so I figured I'd give it a go.

[The Goose]

I have no experience with the .310, but my passion is getting antique cartridge guns to boom again. I just love the thought process that gets to the result. I am working on an old Austrian single shot rifle that is chambered for some unknown caliber. I think I have managed to make up some brass to fit and have loaded up 20 rds. Once I have test fired it and am sure of my info I will post the process. In the meantime I am loving the journey.

[Craiger1987]

Thanks goose:) I'd be interested to hear how your project comes out, I like messing with the older obsolete stuff too. What make is the rifle you're working on?

[The Goose]

It is a lightweight hunting or stalking type rifle made by Johan Rosler in the 1880's or so. He was the gun maker for the Royal Austrian Court into the 1890's. It was sold to me as being chambered for the .43 Mauser, but it is not. I checked all of my reference material and searched on line, but cannot find anything that matches up. Below is the beginning of a write up that I sent to a friend.

"First thing is that the .43 Mauser will not chamber at all. So I melted some Cerrosafe and took a chamber casting and slugged the bore. Groove diameter .446 which is spot on for .43 Mauser. However, the chamber casting showed no discernible neck, only a taper. The length was about 2.35 – 2.37”which would mimic the .43. However the main body of the .43 Mauser case is too thick to chamber. I ran the .43 case up into a 45/70 sizing die and that reduced the body diameter enough to chamber it. If you are familiar with the.43 Mauser case there is a small bump out (don’t know what it is called) on the back of the rim. This bump out would not allow the rifle to close. I chucked the case in my lathe and ground off the bump and it chambered and closed perfectly except now the primer pocket was too shallow to seat a primer. For the heck of it I went back to my old favorite and tried chambering a 45/70 case.Went about half way in and then stopped. The case mouth was too big, meant for a .458 bullet not a .446. I ran the 45/70 case into the .43 Mauser sizing die and that gave it a slight bottle neck. It chambered but the rim was too thick.I reduced the rim diameter from .600 to .586 and then thinned it working from the inside back. After a few tries it chambered perfectly and the rifle closed easily. I made up a dummy round with a 300 gr. .446 bullet that I use in an Austrian Gasser 11.75 X 36mm. The necking of the 45/70 case stretched it slightly, but still about .20+ inches short, but the bullet actually reached into the rifling. I find that black powder and soft lead are pretty forgiving when making up antique cartridges. If the bullet is the right diameter and the brass makes a good seal things generally work fine. I suspect that when I fire this round the case will fire form to the chamber and will go from a slight bottleneck to a taper. I am toying with the idea of trying some 45/90 brass to get the correct length, but I am going to try my current idea first. I will make up 20 rounds or so and see what happens."

Sorry to hijack your post. This is what happens if you get me started. LOL!

[Craiger1987]

Is it possible that it's a 10.3x65R Baenziger? (Only reason I know about it is because it's my family name) it was a popular game and target round back around that time and in that area of the world. Basically it's a .410 brass shotgun shell with a bullet slapped on top instead of shot or slug.

[Craiger1987]

186625
This is a 10.3x65r Baenziger round.

[The Goose]

Although the picture looks darn close the case length is a bit longer, rim diameter and bullet diameter are smaller.

[Craiger1987]

Hmm. The Baenziger round would have had a groove diameter close to .45 as the 10.3 is bore diam at the lands. But if it's too long that wouldn't be it. Now you're gonna make me pour through my cartridge books to see if I can find something from that era that fits the bill :P

[The Goose]

Hmm. The Baenziger round would have had a groove diameter close to .45 as the 10.3 is bore diam at the lands. But if it's too long that wouldn't be it. Now you're gonna make me pour through my cartridge books to see if I can find something from that era that fits the bill :P

That was my plan. Heh, heh.

[The Goose]

10.3x65r Baenziger

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l299/sgoselin/10.3x65r%20Baenziger_zpswce7vk2e.jpg (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/sgoselin/media/10.3x65r%20Baenziger_zpswce7vk2e.jpg.html)

[Craiger1987]

In the book I've got the closest thing I can find is the 11.4X50R Austrian Werndl. Bullet diam of .449, case length of 1.97" and a COAL of 2.55" straight taper brass.

[Craiger1987]

That's what you found yours to be or is that a chamber cast from one?

[The Goose]

That chamber cast of the 10.3 X 65R is from the British Militaria Forum. I only posted it because it had the dimensions for that round. Not mine.

[Craiger1987]

Ah I gotcha. I'm interested to see how you're Rifle will shoot. Recently reacquainted a fascination with single shots :P

[The Goose]

Once I get to the range I will write up a full report with photos.

[Eddie Southgate]

Always wanted a .310 , they were cheap when I was a kid and you could still buy them mail order with no FFL . Not so now . Glad you posted this and will be watching for further adventures .

[Craiger1987]

Yeah theyre not super cheap anymore, but man are they fun. Low noise but enough power to get the job done one medium game. I shoot mine in the woods without any cans and it's just a thump. If you can find one that has had a 32-20 reamer run into it it's really easy to make the proper ammo with a heeled bullet. If you've got a mind to eat one I highly recommend it.

[Craiger1987]

If you want to know what the report is like I'll post the very amateurish video I made while in the woods. I know I stuff the muzzle into my foot while loading it but I didn't want to jab the muzzle into the dirt and I didn't close the action until it was well clear :P

[Craiger1987]

https://youtu.be/x-z1Zf2L59E

[Intel6]

I am the guy the GRUMPA thinned the rims on the 32-20 brass for, honestly never knew the Nagant brass was a viable option. Since GRUMPA mentioned the Nagant brass on another forum I know I picked up a few off the range and will experiment with them.

Since we are discussing it, the 32-20 brass GRUMPA thinned the rims on for turned out great. He did a great job on them and I was very pleased with the quality work he did.


My Cadet is also un modified so I had to shorten the brass down to make sure it fit in the chamber with a seated bullet. The lead into the rifling is a cone so once the bullet hits it the round isn't going in any further. The bullets are aheeled design an are just press fit into the case so you basically just keeptrimming until the dummy round fits in the chamber and the locking block can be raised without dragging on the rear of the case. I found while I was doing this that the shoulder on the 32-20 case was hitting at some point in the slightly tapered chamber so I had to run it up in a .32 S&WL carbide die and knock the shoulder down a bit before I could start finding the case length. Kept trimming 0.010" off the length and trying the dummy round until I got to 1.160" and that gets me just a bit of resistance. I figure depending on the lube I use (Lee Tumble Lube or HiTek) or if the lead gets a bit of fouling I may need to take it down another 0.010" Which is one of the more common lengths with the bullet from the RCBS mould.

So in the pic below L to R:

New un-modified Starline 32-20 case
32-20 case with the rim thinned from the front down to 0.045"
Case with thinned rim trimmed down to 1.160"
Same case with shoulder knocked down to fit in chamber
finished case with a non-lubed bullet (one of my culls) cast from the RCBSmould seated in the neck.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/310_Cadet_Case_Mod.jpg

[txkeeter]

gad custom cartridges lists 310 cadet loaded ammo

[trooperdan]

What shell holder fits the 7.62x38 brass best? I know Midway had Lee make a run og dies for this caliber and I assumed it included a shell holder, other brands?

[Bwana John]

What shell holder fits the 7.62x38 brass best? I know Midway had Lee make a run og dies for this caliber and I assumed it included a shell holder, other brands?

The best fit I have for 7.62 Nagant R brass is a custom RCBS .310 Cadet shell holder.
32-20 and 9mm Parabellum also works.

[Bent Ramrod]

The RCBS #19 shellholder for the .25-.30-.32 Remington autoloader series works very well, too.