W231

[sutherpride59]

Soooo.... I did a little shooting today with my beretta.45 trying to work up a good load for my new hollow point mold. Well I put some 200grn 45 hollow points over 5.5grns of W231. These suckers shot pretty swell but d@$& they burned dirty! They we're pushing about 910fps on my chrony sized to .452 and lubed with bens red.

My question is does W231 just burn dirty in 45acp or would uping or lowering the load reduce the fowling in the chamber area? They didn't lead the barrel at all but they were burning so dirty i had to clean the barrel out with a dry patch so the rounds would chamber and quit hanging up on all the grime.

[tomme boy]

It burns clean at a higher PSI. I don't have a manual near me but look to see if you could go higher if you want it cleaner. Or switch to tightgroup.

[sutherpride59]

max load for W231 is 5.6grns with a 200grn lead boolit. I could try pushing it faster and just watch for excessive pressure signs but I'm really wanting to use a similar load with my 200grn wadcutter for idpa. That being said I don't want to make a stiffer load than I have to.

[Hick]

I haven't had any trouble with W231 seeming unusually dirty, but I haven't tried anything like the load you are using. i use it in my 38 Special with 140 and 148 grain cast and in my 30-30 and 32WS for low velocity loads, and none of these are very high in pressure (not hot loads at all).

[jamesp81]

OP, what primer are you using?

[bosterr]

I shoot 5.5 gr. of 231 with Accurate Molds version of the H & G 68 and get 922 FPS out of my 5 inch 1911. They're lubed with Carnuba Red and sized to .452. The first inch of bore has some residue, but not what I'd call dirty. The outside of the slide near the muzzle gets a bit smoked up, but no gummed up chamber that would cause me to clean it after a couple hundred rounds. Perhaps a difference in our lube?

[sutherpride59]

OP, what primer are you using?
CCI large pistol primer.

[sutherpride59]

I shoot 5.5 gr. of 231 with Accurate Molds version of the H & G 68 and get 922 FPS out of my 5 inch 1911. They're lubed with Carnuba Red and sized to .452. The first inch of bore has some residue, but not what I'd call dirty. The outside of the slide near the muzzle gets a bit smoked up, but no gummed up chamber that would cause me to clean it after a couple hundred rounds. Perhaps a difference in our lube?

now that I think about it the lube may be causeing the fouling and not the powder. I'm using bens red so I don't see why it would be dirty. Maybe try again with a different lube?

[bosterr]

You could try the plunk test before you try a different lube. This will tell you if you're removing enough of the seating flair with your taper crimp die. I use mixed head stamp brass and just taper crimped quite a few until I was sure they would all go into battery. I'm pretty sure the OD of finished rounds aren't as small as the popular .470, but both of my Kimbers run 100%.

[sutherpride59]

I did a plunk test with all of my rounds last night. My crimp is .4565

[Mk42gunner]

I did a plunk test with all of my rounds last night. My crimp is .4565
Whoa there Young Gunner, you might want to recheck that figure. Normally when people quote the dimension of the crimp on a .45 ACP, they are measuring the brass right at the case mouth.

This will normally give somewhere in the neighborhood of .470-.475", given that your boolit is .452" plus twice the case mouth thickness it just about has to be more than .4565".

Personally, I adjust my crimp die by using a factory hardball round and I haven't measured one in years.

Robert

[sutherpride59]

Well between .465-.470, that's what my boss told me to crimp them at. He shoots bullseye matches so I figuered he would know better than I but he also uses the j word so should I be crimping less?

[runfiverun]

470 is the recommended with a 451.
flat is what I go with.

I used to shoot 231 with magma wax lube and a toss in alox to simulate black powder rounds when shooting cowboy stuff.
try the titegroup tomme suggested, it will burn cleaner.

[reddog81]

.465 is a lot different than .456... I don't crimp .45 ACP but I'd try to use minimal crimp as any extra crimp is just swaging down your bullet.

I'd guess your problem is the lube and not the powder. Don't increase your powder charge over the max listed load - you won't see any pressure sign until you're well over double .45 ACP pressures.

[therealhitman]

My question is does W231 just burn dirty in 45acp

Many moons ago I used Bullseye for all my pistol calibers. I switched to 231 as a Bullseye replacement in .38 and .45 acp. All the IPSC and PPC guys seemed to be using it back then and I followed suit. But it burned just as dirty as Bullseye had. I switched to 700X for a while and finally WST because of it's cleaner burn and excellent metering characteristics in the Dillons IMO. Still using 700X in big cases like .44 mag and .45 Colt but haven't used 231 for anything since the late 90s IIRC.

[bosterr]

My ammo measures .472 and plunks just fine. Red Dot was a bit more accurate for me, but I went back to 231 when I got a great deal on 5 pounds.

[dragon813gt]

It's the lube, not the powder. Technically it may be the combination of the powder w/ that lube. No gun powder is clean. All I used for years was 231. A simple wipe down removed all the residue on the outside of the gun. I've yet to find a powder that will prevent me from having to do this.

[popper]

231 isn't as nasty as unique. I ran it 5gr for 165 in 40sw, cci spp using BLL - cases were clean, gun is clean (well I do need to clean the mag - haven't done that for a couple years). Barrel is SHINY. Normally run 4.5gr and a little dirtier.

[flyingrhino]

Agree that lube is the issue, not the powder. My dirtiness went away when I starting PC'ing. Wax lube leaves a greasy soot behind. Don't miss it a bit.

[Cherokee]

231 is my primary 45 ACP powder, has been for 30+ years. Don't see it as a dirty powder. WST is also a good powder for 45 ACP.

[sutherpride59]

Is there anything I can do to minimize the fowling from the lube? Like I said this is some bens red that my father in law made so he may have strayed from the recipe a bit. Any fix for this or just something that happens with all lubes?

[Cowboy_Dan]

Is there anything I can do to minimize the fowling from the lube? Like I said this is some bens red that my father in law made so he may have strayed from the recipe a bit. Any fix for this or just something that happens with all lubes?

Maybe try a quick tumble in BLL. There is a sticky in the lube section with the recipees (one uses a no longer available ingredient).

[dragon813gt]

Do you have any liquid Alox? Tumble them in a thin coat and shoot. Be warned that it will most likely smoke more and really stink. But there should be no residue that prevents chambering.

[tomme boy]

Change lube

[sutherpride59]

I may just change lubes and see what happens. For now I have some BBL that I will coat them with and see if that helps.

[dougader]

231 burns pretty clean. IME it's the type of lube you use that smokes so much and leaves residue. I used liquid Alox from Lee and talk about smokey!

I've heard that WST is much cleaner with cast bullets/lube.

Good time to start powder coating your bullets?

[osteodoc08]

Try changing the lube or go to coated.

I have a good friend of mine that has a 7yrd range indoor range in his basement. He installed 2 high flow fans to get rid of line smoke. Since changing to coated, he still uses the fans but there is a notable difference. He uses Red Dot and WST for the most part

[sutherpride59]

Well after a lot of reloading with W231, power pistol, trail boss and clays I have determined without a shadow of a doubt that it's my lube. I think my lube is actually too soft. Everything I read said that there was no such thing as too soft of a lube but after 10 shots the chamber area is covered in lube so it's too soft. Using aloxed boolits W231 shoots great! Now just to make a batch of harder soft lube.

[gwpercle]

Well between .465-.470, that's what my boss told me to crimp them at. He shoots bullseye matches so I figuered he would know better than I but he also uses the j word so should I be crimping less?
No, the sooty burn could be an indication of too low a pressure , try a bit more crimp.
How are you applying the lube. Tumble lubing with Ben's Red may be putting too much in the chamber area and that's doing it. It could be too much of a good lube . If lubed with a lube sizer with lube in the lube groove only then I would try more crimp and if that doesn't help add a grain of powder.
In reloading cast a lot of the stuff you see is lube . Just because another does something it may not be the correct answer for your problem.
I just came from the range after shooting some 45 loads with 231, had never used it before, Lyman #452460 200 gr. SWC sized .452 , lube in the two small lube grooves only , over 5.7 grains 231 . I put a fairly heavy crimp on them for the 1911 I shoot. I didn't notice any undue chamber build up.
Don't give up just yet , we'll figure it out.
Gary
I didn't

[ubetcha]

I have been using Satan's and don't have a residue concern. I understand that Satan's lube is pretty close to FWFL.

[clum553946]

WST works really well in 45 ACP & burns clean. I shoot a ton of 45 rounds monthly & it is the only 45 acp powder I use!

[lotech]

I suppose some tolerate "dirty" better than others, but lubed cast bullets generally are a bit dirty. If they shoot well and don't lead the bore, that's what is important. A gun that's a little dirty or one that's very dirty both require cleanup. Effort required for that is pretty much the same regardless of the degree of "dirty".

[sutherpride59]

No, the sooty burn could be an indication of too low a pressure , try a bit more crimp.
How are you applying the lube. Tumble lubing with Ben's Red may be putting too much in the chamber area and that's doing it. It could be too much of a good lube . If lubed with a lube sizer with lube in the lube groove only then I would try more crimp and if that doesn't help add a grain of powder.
In reloading cast a lot of the stuff you see is lube . Just because another does something it may not be the correct answer for your problem.
I just came from the range after shooting some 45 loads with 231, had never used it before, Lyman #452460 200 gr. SWC sized .452 , lube in the two small lube grooves only , over 5.7 grains 231 . I put a fairly heavy crimp on them for the 1911 I shoot. I didn't notice any undue chamber build up.
Don't give up just yet , we'll figure it out.
Gary
I didn't


I have been been using my lube sizer with some boolit lube my father in law gave me that is red and has the consistency of grease after the boolit comes out of the sizer. After 10-15 shots I have so much lube built up in the front of the chamber that the casing doesn't want to seat all the way unless I push it that last 1/32" into battery. The projectiles I used were 203grn cast hollow point from my brass mp mold. These were all sized to 452 and shot out of my beretta px4. I also shot some SWCs out of my 1911 with the same issue with the same lube on the boolit which is the RCBS-210-SWC that only has 1 tiny lube groove. The residue build up was a problem with clays, W231, power pistol, and unique. I crimped these at .465" and the last batch with this lube I crimped at.470"- .468"(mixed brass) with no better results. With W231 I pushed it all the way up to 5.6grains which is max load from hogdons load data website. Why does everyone seem to push W231 past max load?

last week I loaded the same boolits up with the same powders but this time I used Lee liquid alox and they shot great with no issues except for power pistol I got some leading.

for this lube should I just make my own Felix lube or should I just try to harden this lube up with paraffin or something else? I have quite a bit so it would Ben a shame to just trash it.

Also before it's asked no I don't want to powder coat my boolits.

[sutherpride59]

I forgot to update this thread, W231 was not the dirty bird gumming up my barrel. I made some Felix lube and the problem is no more. I haven't cleaned my beretta in about 1,000 rounds, have no leading and better yet no crud fowling up the chamber and no failures. Clays burns a bit cleaner still but W231 isn't what I would consider a dirty powder but that's just me. Thanks for all the input.

[Blackwater]

I guess I'm a real "pigpen," because I've never let "dirty" loads bother me, provided they gave me the best accuracy. Cleaning fluids are cheap, especially if you make your own in bulk. I just shrug and keep shooting, but .... that's just me, of course. I always go for accuracy, and the rest takes a back seat. You can't learn to shoot better unless your loads are accurate, and function in your gun. The "dirty" part is way down my list of requirements for a "good load."

[sutherpride59]

Same here but the problem I ran into was after a few shots the lube built up so badly in the chamber the gun wouldn't go into battery. I aim for accuracy over speed and ease of cleaning as well but it's darn difficult to be accurate when you have to stop shooting and clean your gun every time you turn around lol.

[David2011]

Is there anything I can do to minimize the fowling from the lube? Like I said this is some bens red that my father in law made so he may have strayed from the recipe a bit. Any fix for this or just something that happens with all lubes?

Try RandyRat's TAC 1 or TAC X lube. It's low smoke and will make your loading room smell great from the honey odor in the beeswax. Living in Georgia you might want to try the TAC X. TAC 1 will not require heat unless the sizer gets really cold. I use a little heat in the winter with TAC X but in the warmer months it flows without heat. The shop is well insulated and never gets near the ambient temperature, hot or cold.

[sutherpride59]

I'm using Felix lube right now and it seems to be working like a champ.

[lightman]

I always thought 231 to be cleaner than Bullseye or Unique. I've also found that a lot of the smoke and stuff comes from the bullet lube. That old Lyman/Ideal black stuff was terrible! The newer HiTemp stuff seems to smoke much less.