Pistol cal long range

[Knarley]

Am going to be putting some long range rounds together for my .45 Colt Rifle. Question is, "Is it permissible to use the loads marked Ruger / Thompson Center only in a rifle?"

Knarley

[Mgderf]

In a Thompson Contender/Encore, or a Ruger #1 or #3, yes.
In most any other rifle is would not be advised.

There is a very good reason they call them "Ruger/Thompson loads only"

[jcren]

Rossi uses the same receiver on their 45 and 454.

[Loiterer]

Henry states those loads can be used, you didn't mention the firearm you will use.

[Knarley]

Either Marlin '94 or Winchester '73 (Miroku) Uberti Henry.

[Wind]

Hey there Knarley -- You might consider not building a lever action howitzer class load. It isn't necessary. What would really help the cause is a good set of sights, preferably a good tang sight. This is a pistol rated load in action - 7.5 grains of Unique under a 250 grain plain base cast bullet.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW76B4Nzlsk


Hope this helps. Best regards. Wind

[Knarley]

Hey there Knarley -- You might consider not building a lever action howitzer class load. It isn't necessary. What would really help the cause is a good set of sights, preferably a good tang sight. This is a pistol rated load in action - 7.5 grains of Unique under a 250 grain plain base cast bullet.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW76B4Nzlsk


Hope this helps. Best regards. Wind

I'm thinkin' that is sage advice.............Thank you sir..............8-)

Knarley

[Drm50]

400yds is way past the practical range or 45 Colt for anything except target. Marlin 1894 will hold
any Ruger handgun load. Practical hunting range is more like 150yds. I use 7.5g Unique/242g WC
in my S&W m25s for Bullseye shooting, extremely accurate load. Velocity is only about 750-800
fps.

[Blackwater]

The '94 Win should take them well, but the '73 is a MUCH weaker design, and cannot take the extra pressure. The '73 was designed to have enough lockup for the loads of that time, over 140 years ago now. The designers never could have forseen what can be done with those old BP calibers with today's more modern guns and loads. The Marlins are usually a significant bit stronger than the M-94 Wins tend to be, but only in blowup level loads. I don't think there's a significant difference in what they'll take, provided they're newer M-94's and not the older ones that were made with softer steels than are currently used, and have been since the '50's or before. When Win came out with their "nickel steel" receivers, they were highly touted at the time as being stronger than previous models had been.

There are two components to a rifle's strength - it's lockup area and the steels they're made with. The .454 Rossi is indeed the same SIZE as the .45 LC, but what you can't see, is that it's made with a different steel alloy that's significantly stronger than the std. .45 Colt receivers are, or at least that's what I've read and been told by folks I believe know what they're talking about.

But were it me, if the M-94 was mine, and not a pretty new mfg. model, I'd stay at least a little below those Ruger/TC load levels. I don't think you or anything you hit with a good bullet from it will ever be able to tell the difference. And for long range shooting, you'll really need some sort of "ladder" sight, either on the tang or barrel. And with that highly arced trajectory, you'll need to really keep those very vertical when you shoot. Lean right or left, and with the big angle between sightline and bore direction, you'll hit to the right or left, whichever way you lean those sights, and it's startling how much to the side your shots will wind up. Like most, I had to learn that the hard way with my BPCR. But it's a real hoot, and TONS of fun! And it's very educational for a shooter, too. You'll learn more about wind shooting those big, slow low BC bullets than you will in a lot of shooting with more modern rifles. And what you learn there can and will carry over to all your other shooting, too.

And BTW, the old muzzle loaders are also capable of MUCH more than most shooters would suspect. The same rules apply there, only moreso with a RB. And the stuff we learn from doing something really sticks with us. Theory's fine, but experience is final! You've got some really great times and some darn good shooting ahead of you, I think!

[hp246]

Had a discussion last week with Henry regarding their .45-70 lever guns and their new single shot rifle. Neither the lever guns nor the new single shot are up to specs of the Ruger number 1. They put their guns in a level somewhere between the Ruger #1 and the Springfield. They compared their lever gun to the other lever guns on the market, though they would not share the pressures with me.

[Wind]

Well boy and girls -- The "Weak Winchester Toggle Link Action" story constantly bandied about the internet is pretty much BS. Here is what Oliver Winchester had to say about it...

"The strength of the Model 1876 rifle and the .45-75 W.C.F. cartridge was tested by Winchester in the late 1870s. These tests astound collectors and shooters who have stated the Model 1876's toggle link action is "weak". The factory conducted tests on the strength and reliability of the action to answer concerns by customers.

In response to a letter sent to the company by Charles Hallock, Esquire, of Forest & Stream magazine, Oliver Winchester responded by telling about the tests the factory accomplished on the 1876 rifle.

(NOTE: this is the same toggle link action as in the 1873 rifle - but on the larger caliber 1876 and 45-75 cartridge - 45 caliber and 75 grains of black powder)

He indicated that engineers first started the tests by removing one of the toggle links and fired 20 rounds (this was with .45-75 W.C.F. cartridge with 350 grain bullet) with no effect.

They restored the missing link then went through 6 more trials starting with a charge of 105 grains of black powder, behind a 700 grain bullet! The comment "worked well" is noted.

They then increased the charge of powder to 165 grains behind 3 bullets (1,150 grains) and that "worked well."

From there, they increased the powder charge to 203 grains and added more bullets until they reached 1,750 grains of lead (five 350 grain bullets). This also "worked well."

Finally, they added one more bullet, bringing the total weight to 2,100 grains, and things began to happen. The comment was, "Breech pin slightly bent. Arm working stiff."

The seventh and final test was again 203 grains of powder but this time six Martini bullets weighing 480 grains each (2,880 grains) were used. "The charge bent the breech pin, blew out the side plates, split the frame and otherwise disabled the arm," was the comment.

Oliver Winchester noted that in this seventh trial, the shell had burst into fragments and the escape of gas at the breech did the damage.

The fact is the Italians are building these rifles with modern steel, in modern factories, with modern proof testing.

Hope this helps. Best regards. Wind

[Bill*B]

I have a rifle chambered for .475 Linebaugh, and have given up trying to hot rod it. The rifle barrel doesn't give you a whole lot more velocity than a pistol, no matter how you load it.

[35 Whelen]

Knarley what are you calling "long range"? Remember Elmer Keith began experimenting with long range shooting by lobbing bullets from a 45 Colt revolver at a target some 700 yds. away. (Refr. Sixguns by Elmer Keith) Point is you don't need to run velocities way up to shoot at long range.

I picked up a Uberti 1866 Sporting Rifle in 44-40 with a 24" barrel that has a graduated ladder type rear sight. I began by experimenting until I found a load that was the rough equivalent to the original load; a 200 gr. bullet at 1300 fps. Once I had an accurate load, which shot low at 100 yds., I regulated the sights by slowly filing down the front sight until point of impact (POI) was the same as point of aim (POA) at 100 yds., this all of course with the ladder sight folded down. I then moved to 200 yds. and with the ladder flipped up and the sight at its lowest setting, POI was very close to POA. Next I set up a target at 300 yds. and tried the sight at the 300 yd. graduation. Ultimately, I found I had to set it just a smidge over the 300 yd. mark to have POI at POA.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1873%20Uberti%20Sporting%20Rifle/300%20yds.%20with%20Unique_zpshasgqca3.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/1873%20Uberti%20Sporting%20Rifle/300%20yds.%20with%20Unique_zpshasgqca3.jpg.html)

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/1873%20Uberti%20Sporting%20Rifle/300%20yds.%20with%20Swiss%203f_zpszd5cmyhv.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/1873%20Uberti%20Sporting%20Rifle/300%20yds.%20with%20Swiss%203f_zpszd5cmyhv.jpg.htm l)

I don't have a bench where I shoot 300 yds. so had to shoot with the rifle prone, unsupported at the rear. I shot the BP load last and as you can see the wind had begin to pick up a little. The BP load is a very accurate one. Your biggest issue will be the wind as it takes but the slightest puff of wind to blow these stubby little bullets off target.

Last year I took the above rifle on a 5-day outing with some friends on a remote ranch in SW Texas. One evening we lasered a torso sized rock 326 yds. across a river bed. Once we figured out how far to hold into the wind, we had a ball shooting that rock. None of them had ever fired a rifle like this and were in total amazement that they could be accurate at such ranges.

Some sort of aperture sight would be better for accuracy, especially if you have 50+ year old eyes like I do, but aperture sights aren't near as flexible for varying ranges as one will have to adjust it up and down and unless you mark your ranges on the sight, it could be a pain. The age in my eyes shows in the top target in the form of vertical stringing. Anyhow, I have a tang sight on one of my old '73 Winchesters as well as the original buckhorn. I use the buckhorn sight for 100 yds. and the tang sight for 200. Problem is the sight on the barrel interferes with the sight picture when using the tang sight.

The 45 Colt is no slouch in a long barrel rifle where velocity is concerned. Brian Pearce in Handloader #261, tested some 45 Colt loads in a 20" Uberti that were in the 20,000 psi range and with a couple of loads got right at 1400 fps with a 255 gr. bullet. The key is to use slower burning powders in these longer barrels.

The '73 action is much stronger than most would believe. If it weren't, Uberti wouldn't chamber theirs in .44 Magnum. If you do decide on a Uberti/Cimarron/Taylor, I'd sure take a long look at one of the Sporting Rifles with a ladder sight. Of course they're standard on these companies 1860 Henry's.

35W

[Blackwater]

Wind, your point is well taken, especially with respect to the Italian copies and the steels they're using, but I've just heard of too many old '73's letting go to trust them. Valid questions still exist about their ultimate strength, but if one wants the gun to last, I for one will keep the loads down to near the original levels. But then, I'm a guy who once blew up a Super Blackhawk, so that colors my "bravery" nowadays. "Once burnt, a lesson learnt!" So until someone offers up some good SMOKELESS evals, I'll keep them back in the realm they were originally designed to operate within. Getting old, and surviving one blowup and other things kind'a makes a fella' a bit more circumspect than he was when younger. But point well taken anyway.

[35 Whelen]

I don't have the link at my fingertips, but if you'll go over to the CAS Forum, I believe in the 173 Winchester section, there's a thread o this very subject of the strength of '73's. Therein yout can find 2 or 3 pictures of toggle link actioned rifles that were overloaded with smokeless powder and in each and every case the action survived intact. The barrel was what was destroyed.

35W

[bearcove]

My take on this is one simple fact.

When I pull the trigger it is my face behind that bolt that might not hold. Or my hand on the barrel that does the banana peel act.

Yes I push it with 45 colt and 35 Rem and others that have low pressure sammi spec load data. BUT I would not get that info from the internet or folks that do youtube videos. You need to know more than just getting a "Yeah its good" response from people you don't know.

[northmn]

The 45-70 is shot with BP loads with a 500 grain bullet at about 1200 fps or less. If you read the books on long range shooting with BP firearms, velocity is not so much the issue as bullet quality and wind. One person said it best that sights can be set for trajectory but it is the wind that causes all the problems. Winchester at one time stated that the 44-40 model 73 was good for deer at 300 yards. Marketing at its best.

DP